Here's my problem: Every time I see a Seiko I really like, it's 1k or more. That's just a lot of scratch for a Seiko, when so many other options start to avail at that price point. Last time I went through that exercise, I wound up buying a Doxa 600T for right around 1k. Seemed to me to be a much better move.
@eyeheartsushi2212
3 ай бұрын
That is what’s happening with me as well.
@jimmymcclure4549
3 ай бұрын
It is just capitalism., or unregulated capitalism. The more the wealth of the country is in fewer hands the less the many hands have to pay for things. So compianes like the micro brands pop up to cater to the masses of people who fall out of the ability or willingness to pay the amount of money that fewer and fewer people can affords to pay for something like a watch. The "luxury" watch prices are getting higher because they are making less of them because the number of people who can afford them are going down. As the smaller businesses run by the folks who are claiming their toilet paper as a business tax deduction and their cars, computers , watches etc. begin to be butchered by the oligarchs thiose prices will go higher because it is the smaller than they think they are people who are buying the things. and they are getting eaten alive by the day by the predators at the top.
@lamentate07
3 ай бұрын
The Presages over 1k are often very nice, especially the Craftmanship Series. Where are you going to get a real lacquer dial with that kind of finishing for 1500-1700 USD? If those watches were Swiss, they would be thousands more.
@WordMadeFlesh777
3 ай бұрын
Yup and the bracelets are trash. Great watch cases but…just junk bracelets.
@BluGiant14
3 ай бұрын
@@jimmymcclure4549 fantastic argument and one that I definitely agree with
@dustinthewind09
3 ай бұрын
I think it's really great Mark is taking this time to be honest with us consumers. Educating us is not his responsibility, yet he cares enough to do so. Thank you, good sir.
@bartfloyd4538
2 ай бұрын
Yes he’s Awesome to us his dear customers .❤
@PETERJOHN101
2 ай бұрын
Please. Mark is a seller, he is trying to maintain market presence in the face of increasing competition. It's not story time. By the way, I have been a customer of his since his early days. I am not a fan of his website offerings due to a high percentage of perpetually unavailable models. A more helpful model for showing inventory / availability is needed.
@TheChaz5504
3 ай бұрын
The fact you would do this video, perhaps even undermining your own brand a bit, really speaks to your integrity. Great points. In general, many people do not embrace the reality of change and are stuck like a broken record on the way things were back in the day- and deny the completely logical reasons why they are different and refuse to adapt. Sad reality of our species.
@sinesaii
Ай бұрын
I do think many people care a lot about signaling to others, and for them, they only want a watch to display wealth, not to enjoy. These people cannot buy a $4k Seiko. The same folks call Tudor “the poor man’s Rolex” and let everyone who ever meets them know that they have a Rolex and their pen is Mont Blanc (not a great pen maker, but good for showing off) and they will bore you with what stupid luxury car they own. I worked with a clown like that once. He was almost a walking stereotype (short, insecure, showy). He would never stop complaining about an NYC partner who bought a house in Harlem. It was a beautiful home, but this guy had the Pakistani gynecologist McMansion in the suburbs with tiny, sad trees and a pathetic lawn, but always the same Mercedes out front. Those guys go on Rolex waiting lists and do not understand why independent brands exist or why every clothing brand does not have garish labels.
@marcob.7801
20 күн бұрын
The ONLY sad reality my friend is that MOST if not ALL manufdcturers are GREEDY bastardos! I'm not against making a honest buck,...operative being HONEST! But all this GREED has made me a smarter (and far more patient) consumer to the point that if I can't get a good deal, I DON'T BUY!
@oakmen4604
2 ай бұрын
It's a post covid economy. Businesses raised prices because of uncertainty, profited massively, and left it there claiming it was inflation that caused it. You can see this with grocery stores and their weekly sales. Everything is marked up, but nobody buys until it's at a reasonable price. Yeah, there's overhead with a large scale business, but manufacturing at scale should drive the price down per part and balances out the additional business financial needs. What businesses are trying to do is drive up their profits per unit because there's a limited customer base anyways.
@bogrot69
3 ай бұрын
Makes a lot f sense. From now on, when I hear someone mention it, I'll let them know how much better off they are buying an Islander! 😁
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Hahahaha
@FT4Freedom
3 ай бұрын
Thanks Mark. Love you man. 🎉 You're spot on this. I was an original Seikophile who grew up in the gray market. Nowadays it's more difficult to put money on a Seiko.
@LikelyProcrastinating
3 ай бұрын
I’m with you here. I think with the grey market shrinking there will be less wrists sporting seiko. I have three, one I never wear and should sell but when I see a seiko and it’s price I pass and think, I’ll hold out for a GS or other. Buy what speaks to you.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@d3xmeister
3 ай бұрын
How about Sinn prices , or Oris prices ? How much did a Sinn 104 cost 6-7 years ago ? I bet it’s almost double now
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
For sure
@Bob_Smith19
3 ай бұрын
Sinn stopped being a good deal pre COVID. They have no competition in the US. There is only one place to purchase from.
@zunedog31
3 ай бұрын
Our money isn't worth anywhere near what it was before covid stimulous.
@teleguy5699
2 ай бұрын
People complained when the Hamilton field watch went up in price right around the pandemic. I still bought it. In ten years that price will sound cheap. We need to base value against real time, instead of nostalgia.
@michaelpowers5506
3 ай бұрын
I purchased your Brookdale black on a jubilee during the Father's Day sale. It is a great value and I have worn it everyday since. Keep up the good work.
@TheNinjaMarmot
3 ай бұрын
I like my Citzens. Eco drive beats anything else out there. All reliable and keeps charge for a long time.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Citizen is one I didn't touch for a comparison reason.
@Silver-st2zq
3 ай бұрын
Same here 👍
@spacetoilet
3 ай бұрын
Same! I have the orange and blue promaster and I love it.
@spacetoilet
3 ай бұрын
Also, I LOVE my seiko quartz titanium watch, it over time has me liking quartz watches more than autos just because I prioritize thinness above most things in a watch. That Seiko is incredibly comfortable and looks amazing.
@framptonhendrix530
3 ай бұрын
I have 4 Citizen watches the only Automatic is the Tsuyosa, Citizen makes nice & durable Watches ✌️🙏
@TheTimLara
3 ай бұрын
Love these industry analysis content videos. The arguments you presented can basically be rolled up to "don't hate the player, hate the game" imo. Markets gonna market. 🤷♂️
@SteveDonev
3 ай бұрын
But by cracking down on the gray market seiko is making sure that markets can’t market and artificially pumping up the price. The game is fine, its the player thats trying to squeeze more money out of consumers than what the market would normally call for
@brianmccord7387
3 ай бұрын
@@SteveDonev exactly. When Rolex bought Bucherer everyone was like oh look at them continuing to monopolize the market. But when Seiko actively seeks out and strangles ghost buyers, it’s OK?
@SteveDonev
3 ай бұрын
@@brianmccord7387 💯
@TheTimLara
3 ай бұрын
@@SteveDonev I'm not sure I understand what people consider gray market dealers I guess..? I still seem to have no problem finding "NIB" Seikos on eBay or C24, etc, often for a decent discount, but I generally just choose to support my ADs anyway because I can also get decent discounts there and then get full warranty coverage which is worth it to me. I know some people enjoy the "hunt" of finding deals though so I understand that's part of it if sources you used to find have dried up.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thanks so much.
@whatsthebigfndeal
3 ай бұрын
Orient is owned by the same company (Epson) and they produce better watches with better quality control for less money. At some point, we just have to admit that they're living off the brand name and charging far more than they should. I'm 52 years old and I've been a seiko fanboy since I was a teenager but they aren't what they were. They're just a mall brand, now. And I get it, genuine enthusiasts are a tiny fraction of the market so they certainly aren't obligated to cater to all of us watch nerds. It would be pretty cool, however, if they would throw us the occasional bone. I'm wearing my 009 as I type this and that only emphasizes my point. We begged for years to have a hacking/handwinding movement with sapphire for the skx. What did they give us, though? A "sport" mall watch without a screw down crown and an exhibition case back that no one wanted. And they jacked up the price. Epson produces everything involved in the making of their watches. And I mean everything. They even grow their own quartz!!! They are in a position to produce watches for far less money than any other manufacturer on the planet. Instead, they give us hardlex, crappy bracelets, misalignment issues and increased prices for endless "re-issues" that cost twice what they should. It would cost Epson less than half as much to produce an islander but they would charge over twice as much. It's hard to even take them seriously, anymore.
@betochiwas
2 ай бұрын
True, the only thing that don{t like of Orient is the logo to be honest.
@dustywaxhead
Ай бұрын
Just bought an Orient Bambino and I agree. Their Orient Kamasu in red is gorgeous however I wish they released smaller sizes. Seiko is a bit better in this regard
@tttm99
2 ай бұрын
I feel like you're perhaps a frustrated economics or business lecturer who happens to run a good line in selling watches. 😂 But seriously, listening to someone who has clearly worked hard, knows what they're talking about, and stayed honest in this day and age is a rare treat indeed. Every video you release is like a reminder as to why I subscribed. 👍
@SteveDonev
3 ай бұрын
You said it yourself. Its the market that decides what a good is worth not the manufacturer. That is what the gray market is. Seiko has been fighting against the gray market in order to artificially boost prices, so by definition they are overpriced.
@H0kram
11 күн бұрын
One of the most important video for the watch community out there. I first was like anybody else a few years ago and onward, complaining about their prices, but this is just unfair. Credit goes where credit is deserved. Thank you so much for this, it is very enlightening, Marc. Prime example of a business owner in my book. I will throw that video at the face of anybody who will complain again about Seiko because they can have a Tandorio for 70 dollars. Ps : I'll still be happy to pay more, on top of VAT, if you opened a 3PL/get an AD in the EU. Sorry, I know how you feel about this but I just had to 😂
@kb9oak749
3 ай бұрын
Whatever the case with Seiko pricing, if I don't see the value for the $, I'm not buying it. Not paying a premium for Seiko.
@steveizzo5853
3 ай бұрын
Maybe Seiko sales are down for Mark so he has to justify the higher prices that Seiko is demanding him to charge. Its pretty cut and dry, a $200 Pagni Design or San Martin will get a Seiko movement, sapphire crystal, 200m water resistance. Half the Seiko's are made in China and the quality is there.
@stevemc75
3 ай бұрын
What is “premium?” That is such a subjective term.
@subeijekalo5884
3 ай бұрын
I agree with everything, I argued many times with people mentioning points 2 and 3, that’s something that normal to anyone who knows anything about business. But thank you Mark for point number 1, that was very informative for me.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
@simonmcguire4290
3 ай бұрын
Excellent video and a change from some of the usual Seiko bashing found on social media. I note a lot of people poo poo Seiko trawling their own back catalogue to save on design and development costs but so do most of their competitors including both Japanese and Swiss brands. Also worth mentioning the savings some of the Chinese homage brands can achieve by borrowing established designs.
@behonestwithyourself3718
3 ай бұрын
The problem with currency devaluation is wages are the the last to increase it seems. The average worker is always one step behind.
@98167
2 ай бұрын
hi Mark. I’ve come across your ads while watching KZitem videos. I like your sales pitch, with humor. I suggest you showcase watches that are just being released, hot sellers, etc on your ads. keep it up team: long island + Mark 🤩
@sinesaii
3 ай бұрын
I think the best Seiko’s cost more now. Seiko owns the $800 to $1500 space. Personally, I always liked the SARX and SBDC models. I have a few of those, and they are really good. I still love my Astron, and that was expensive a decade ago.
@lamentate07
3 ай бұрын
Agree. I recently bought a Presage Craftmanship Series watch with a black lacquer dial for around 1300 USD. I can't think of a better looking watch I've seen for that price. If it was a Swiss watch, it would cost thousands more.
@NexDim.
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for making this video. I have no skin in the game but after a while it gets annoying seeing the same comments about seiko prices. Everything has gone up, I hope the same people are complaining about food, gas, and cars too because those are the things that really matter.
@jodee8831
3 ай бұрын
Those may be valid, and arguable, points... but in the end.. your perspective is inevitable biased because you are a Seiko retailer
@helloxuxu
3 ай бұрын
Marc, this is the best watch related content I’ve seen in months. You’re spot on. Some of Seiko’s recent releases that are being massively trashed over pricing such as the new “SNXS” series and some of the classic 5 reissues, will be sought after once they themselves are discontinued. Perhaps they’ll be even more sought after in future exactly because they may be shunned by the contemporary market.
@Royal_BLT
3 ай бұрын
🇨🇦 Get back to me when you find a better watch than my Seiko ! I bought it new, 52 years ago, for about $50 ! Today it is worth about $2000 and still runs perfectly accurately ! Not many watches can match my 1972 Seiko Automatic Chronograph Pogue ! 🇨🇦
@QoraxAudio
3 ай бұрын
Seiko has the benefit of economy of scale, compared to smaller brands. This should make their products *significantly* cheaper instead of more expensive, despite bigger overhead. It's just basic economics... As for inflation, you're right. However, wage growth is outpaced by inflation, so even if the watches are priced in line with inflation, they've become more expensive in a relative sense. At least that's how people perceive it, but it's actually the other way around: wages have gone down in value, while the value of most goods has been stable.
@MN12BIRD
3 ай бұрын
MSRP and "price too low to show" is definitely a real thing in many industries. I used to work at a computer store that sold a certain brand of router (newer brand at the time but common now) and we sold them below MSRP. Eventually the brand got big enough that a big retail chain started to carry them. They didn't like that we were selling them cheaper, below MSRP and complained to the supplier and eventually they told us we can't display a price lower than MSRP and if we continued they'd stop supplying us! Grey market can say we're selling below MSRP but you don't get the manufactures warranty perhaps because like you said they were brought in from another country? Brand recognition is worth something. Just how much it's worth is going to depend on the buyer! Sure if I could get a Seiko with the same specs for a little more I would. But if the microbrand is half the price or less for the same specs and quality. Well, I might not be able to justify that. But it depends.
@Jollopukki2
3 ай бұрын
friend, but what about Casio G-shock? they are also super-big brand, but can offer much better watches for decent price.
@TitoVicVGC
3 ай бұрын
Solar G-shock square for less tan 90€ right now.. not 200+ for a Seiko 5.
@melvinleok
3 ай бұрын
If this was simply a matter of the elimination of the grey market and inflation, which affects the entire watch industry, the Seiko would have still been able to maintain its value proposition relative to the competition. The simple fact of the matter is that Seiko has stood still while the rest of the industry has made dramatic improvements in quality, movement accuracy specifications. It now faces substantial competition from entry-level Swatch group brands like Tissot, and the landscape is indeed even more stark when you look at the quality you get from Chinese brands and microbrands. I don't shy away from paying a premium for an established brand name and the heritage, but when the quality of the product you get from a Chinese brand is higher than a Seiko costing several times more, then that is a problem that Seiko needs to address. Put in the infrastructure investment necessary to make a product that can compete on the basis of quality, and charge more for it. Offering a poorer quality product with mediocre specifications and charging more solely on the basis of heritage and brand name is going to be a losing proposition.
@luist.1919
3 ай бұрын
Great explanation! Honestly, I don’t remember when I last bought a Seiko. I grew up on Long Island so I love wearing my Islander watches. Even my wife questioned me one day. “Why do you want a Rolex? You can get an Islander!” 😎
@barrettwbenton
3 ай бұрын
I have found it funny how Seiko somehow became the Third Rail of "why are watch prices so much higher now?", totally ignoring the rest of the economy in general, as if the watch market is somehow cocooned from everything else. Good on you for this apparently necessary bit of enlightenment, Marc!
@aashutosh9285
2 ай бұрын
Marc is so real for this. Love this guy and his honesty!!!!
@ChrisOnez718
3 ай бұрын
I'm sad i haven't been into watches in the past decade or so. Seiko's have special meaning to me, and I love the quality vs price, but I slept on buying them before they started raising prices. When I got back into watches is when I noticed Seiko 5s, and grand seiko's and all that, them having so many collections was definitely new to me.
@michaelkeefer4293
3 ай бұрын
This is a very interesting and informative video Marc, and I agree with you 100%. However, the customer is rarely going to think of all these factors when they're going to buy a watch, from their perspective the value proposition for buying a Seiko has diminished. Especially when you factor that most of our incomes, in recent years, have not kept pace with the skyrocketing inflation.
@CasualCommentator
3 ай бұрын
Completely disagree. A very standard Seiko dive watch 10 yrs ago was around $300. Today when Seiko releases a new dive watch the price is close to $2000. It has been a very obvious strategy...each new release comes with a hike in price (but not a hike in quality).
@WristWatcher
2 ай бұрын
What about Rolexs that used to be $300?
@lamentate07
2 ай бұрын
And for $2000 you are getting much better design and specs. Try comparing like with like next time.
@Cynicalgeek743
2 ай бұрын
@@WristWatcher Rolexes weren’t $300 10 years ago. We all understand inflation and it hasn’t been over 600% in the last decade
@Ninjamlm
2 ай бұрын
@@lamentate07not really. A slightly longer power reserve movement but still unregulated?
@brokeindio5072
2 ай бұрын
Aren’t there still 300 seiko dive watches?
@Cville2347
3 ай бұрын
Very nice and informative video. I never knew that there were so many variables. This helps to clear up a bit of the confusion on Seiko prices but it really hasn't changed my mind about Seiko. I haven't purchased a Seiko in years and with all the great micro brands out there I can scratch my watch "itch" with a lot of very interesting brands with extremely competitive prices and specs that put Seiko to shame.
@mahabir_navin
3 ай бұрын
You look good in that color
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thanks! My wife got it for me :)
@Jelloc
3 ай бұрын
@@islandwatchIs it because it is in trend with the current Tiffany Blue colours for watches?
@eyeheartsushi2212
3 ай бұрын
Marc, can you do a video about what’s going on with Seiko’s $1K - $4K price range? I’m seeing some Seiko Prospex watches starting in that range and I’m wondering if it’s all about the movement or what exactly? Allegedly the bracelets are still not great?
@bigsmooshflopdong33
3 ай бұрын
This biggest issue is people can't think things through logically and just hop onto what they read on the internet. They see a bunch of people complaining online about price and just hop on board. There is a large portion of society who just can't think for themselves.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
That's true.
@bigsmooshflopdong33
3 ай бұрын
@islandwatch I don't mean this from a pessimistic point of view, but rather just a realistic point of view. Herd mentality, cognitive dissonance, and nostalgia for the past are all completely normal but typically get in the way of facts and logic.
@bigsmooshflopdong33
3 ай бұрын
@islandwatch another bummer is most folks income hasn't kept up with the rapid rise in inflation, rent, and cost of living in general. So that gap between retail cost and expendable cash seems that much greater. That's also not the fault of Seiko.
@WINDINGCROWNS
3 ай бұрын
@bigsmooshflopdong33 I agree. They also do that with Hublot. They jump on the bandwagon and hate a watch they have never owned 😂
@theenavybluemonster
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for making this great informative video. I’ve been getting tired of all the silly chatter about Seiko’s prices especially from many KZitemrs.
@michaelmyers4176
3 ай бұрын
Totally totally agree
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
👍🏻
@eggs-benny
3 ай бұрын
Great video, thanks for sharing the history of the gray market in the early 2000’s
@abneriidelacruz6705
3 ай бұрын
Mark, that's the best explanation I have heard. People like to blame Seiko for increasing their prices but so has everyone else! The affordable Swiss brands like Tissot and Hamilton are way more expensive than they used to be and back to your reasons , they also apply to those. The used market is where value is at for the informed. For someone who has just returned to watch collecting I find the used market the best value for any watch brand.
@NicholasANappiNick
3 ай бұрын
Is McDonald’s the value it once was?☹️☹️☹️☹️
@felo6035
3 ай бұрын
Outstanding analysis Marc. Very good rationalization and explanation of the market.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thank you
@felo6035
3 ай бұрын
@@islandwatch👍🙌
@davidtobelembenzaquen7420
3 ай бұрын
You are right! I love seiko. Having Breitling, BaumeEtMercier, I allways come back to a Seiko!
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Same here!
@markh2351
6 күн бұрын
All very true and clear Marc, but we also have examples of Seiko discontinuing some of their more popular watches, which builds the hype and then reintroducing the same, or substantially similar watch at double the price. If that isn't so-called 'price gouging' then I don't know what is? I love Seiko and I still buy Seiko, but at a realistic price to value, not at anything approaching their sticker prices. We also all know about the QC lottery issues which we accept as 'well, it's a Seiko, that's what you get'. There are good reasons why Seiko used to be seen as the go-to for value and is no longer, Citizen have now taken that crown with better pricing and QC, although they can be seriously lacking in the design department ;-)
@hankcromer2935
Ай бұрын
Just ordered a SRPG39 from you. With the sale price and coupon code it came out to $237 after sales tax. Cheapest I saw it on Amazon was $219 plus taxes and buying from you I get the warranty since you are a Seiko AD. Got a decent raise this year for the first time since 2020, but the dollar sure doesn’t go as far as it used to. Just look up the inflation calculator sometime and one will see. Thanks for your explanation of things.
@samaantree
3 ай бұрын
I have to agree with Mark on the pricing here. A grand seiko, costs about £6000 pounds so a turtle with all those specs costing around £700 is still very good imo.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for that.
@Nick-wh4jt
3 ай бұрын
Yup agree
@richardpool9970
3 ай бұрын
Great video and excellent points. I own more Seiko watches (4) than any other brand but the issue I have is the pricing in different regions. I've only purchased 1 Seiko in Finland (Seiko Turtle discounted by 48%) and rest have come from either Singapore (grey market) or direct from Japan (from AD) and I saved myself +30% compared to price in Finland (also this considers import taxes I have to pay). Watch prices just seem to be much higher in Europe and that's not down to differences due to inflation or currency fluctuations. In addition, I think many people are still watching their outgoings after the pandemic so seeing less Seiko bargains/grey market offers does give the perception of higher prices plus microbrands and Chinese brands have such good value propositions that they are hard to ignore for anyone on a budget. And one other point I've just remembered is regarding QC with Seiko. I think there QC tolerances are a bit high. I think it's something like dials can be misaligned by up to 1.5 degrees but that really is noticeable at the extreme and hence people see they are getting less (poorer quality) for their money. For me I can live with a small misalignment but I've had '(and returned) a Seiko King Turtle where chapter ring, dial and cyclops have all be misaligned/wonky.
@Rich-fv5ey
3 ай бұрын
Props to Mark for this thoughtful and unbiased analysis, especially since Islander sells Seikos AND its own branded watches! 👍
@jaymt1982
3 ай бұрын
That criticism is fair. They are not the value proposition they once were. They are definitely more expensive and it just doesn't make sense to buy the regular Seiko watches now (I won't buy them and I will wait till I can afford a Grand Seiko). I get Mark's arguments and he does have a point. If I was coming into the market now Seiko would seem fair but I am not. I got my SKX009 at 220 dollars and so I can't turn that part of my brain off when looking at a Seiko. Also I like Islander because I know the next person who knows of the brand will be another watch guy and not just a rando person. The civilians can have their civilian brands 😅😉.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Agreed.
@BlackWipeout
3 ай бұрын
I think it's more complex than that, we also have to consider where they are made now, how much the raw materials cost at the time. There has also been a lot of progress being made in machinery and automation. The machines have become cheaper too. etc. We have seen all watch companies raise prices for a reason, the entry level segments will die over time. The only way to survive is to go to the luxury segment. Why? Smartwatches ;)
@onoff5604
3 ай бұрын
Also, seiko puts a lot of resources into R&D, such as developing and mass producing quality GMT calibers which is a boon to the microbrands that can then make cheaper watches. This is less direct, but by supporting Seiko's good investments we incentivise seiko to make more of those good investments. If we want better thinner multi-complication movements for microbrands (and surely we do), Seiko is likely one of the main innovators for those in years to come.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
They put tons into it, and we all reap the benefits.
@kenrankin5814
3 ай бұрын
I remember getting my SNK089 (which I just priced on Amazon for 222.00!) over Thanksgiving on Amazon a few years ago for 49 dollars. I feel very lucky now lol and I have 3 Seikos but honestly wear a San Martin or an Islander most of the time when I can.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for sharing!
@achraftahir
3 ай бұрын
I call bullshit on the price hikes “justification” especially when a Seiko 5 which was 100$ got reissued for 450$ with pretty much the same specs. My guess is they’re trying to go upmarket but they’re going the wrong way about it
@franciscomoliner1296
3 ай бұрын
I can agree on the value of getting design, brand recognition and manufacturer's warranty. I do not mind hardlex at a certain price point or models for product placement. But I sincerely do not accept Seiko is not capable of providing solid endlinks and a milled clasp, even at Seiko Five prices. Regards
@J_Benn
3 ай бұрын
Mark, everything you've said is correct BUT there was a time period (especially during the "old" Seiko 5 days) when Seiko itself was well-aware its 5 line was an introductory line to automatics for a lot of buyers. They catered to that market. Now they no longer care. When I can get an amazing Islander or San Martin with Seiko-esque dials, Seiko movements, sapphire crystal (NOT Hardlex), great bracelets, and great QC, why should I buy a basic Seiko 5 Sports for a similar price? Just for the name? You mentioned Citizen, also a company with great heritage and famous name- you can still get a ton of Citizens, both Eco-drives and automatics for under $200, and they target those buyers. Seiko no longer does.
@doniherald7745
3 ай бұрын
my interest in watch is gone after the downgrade of budget seiko watch, at least my wallet is safe, im grateful and dissapointed at the same time
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Haha, thanks.
@mikes121
3 ай бұрын
Good summation. Very informative.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Thanks.
@thomaskuhn6541
3 ай бұрын
Even though Seiko has gotten more expensive, you can still get a good price from an authorized dealer if you are willing to wait. Macy's usually has pretty attractive discounts on quite a few Seiko models around Black Friday, although I have the feeling that's mainly for the Seiko 5 line and not Presage and above. Here in Canada we have The Bay, also a department store authorized dealer, who consistently offer 25% discounts throughout the year. Once again, those discounts are almost exclusively on Seiko 5 models.
@keesketsers5866
2 ай бұрын
Yes, they have overhead costs etc etc. I accept that, but there is ZERO excuse for asking $1000 for a watch that barely runs +20 a day, has a misaligned chapter ring and a terrible bracelet and very low power reserve. Their company size SHOULD enable them to get that right. All my (expensive) Seiko's have these problems. I love the look of Seiko watches, but they get almost no wrist time because of these issues. Aftersales is a joke too, according to Seiko a misaligned chapter ring is "to be expected, so not covered in warranty". Funny that all other brands don't have that "expected" problem.
@Jim-j9e
Ай бұрын
Question, didn't you LOOK at any of the watches before you bought them? If you got them over the net it's on you my friend, If you had problems with the first why keep getting them without first looking at the next one. Sorry but your story doesn't make sense
@ThePlaiibox
3 ай бұрын
The 6r family of movements are terrible and in no way reflect the quality or reliability of the s200, and equivalent eta's in the 500-1200 price range. They are great if only paying 200-500
@KTakahara
3 ай бұрын
Hard to find any watch with ETA (or even a Sellita for that matter) under $1K. The Seiko 6L (not 6R) series was made to rival the ETA2800 series, and it has outperformed my ETAs consistently. Unfortunately they dont release many SKUs using the 6L movements.
@catlike1
3 ай бұрын
If regulated, these movements are quite good for the price. They are much cheaper than the Sellitta/ETAs. Problem is Seiko rarely regulates them at the factory, which they should for any watch above say $600. Many microbrands using Seiko movements do and get good performance out of them. BTW, the ETA 2824 has a well known helicoptering problem, which I myself have encountered (and is why you should limit winding a watch with a 2824).
@L233233
3 ай бұрын
@@catlike1 It is unclear how widespread the ETA/Stellita hand winding problems are. There are only a few actual proven instances of damage to the movement from hand winding, considering that, at this points, there are probably a double-digit amount of millions of these movements in use. They've been around for decades.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
I've heard that alot, esp of the 6R35.
@ThePlaiibox
3 ай бұрын
@@KTakahara tissot prx, certina ds action diver both around 5/600. Anything from Hamilton. Some longines models under 1k. There's plenty out there. Mido, zodiac, need I go on?
@gerardhiggins1
2 ай бұрын
Can anyone tell me where I might find a bracelet collar for a Citizen Garrison AT2480-57L? Or if I can even buy them at all.
@Mystery_Man84
3 ай бұрын
Seiko can keep their heritage and their worldwide distributions😂. Their problem is they think they’re Rolex and they’re just not.
@thegorn
3 ай бұрын
Exactly. They are full of themselves. some cool retro designs but Omega or Rolex - they are not.
@Ballahooligan1
3 ай бұрын
Yep. A few more years of over pricing and dodgy QC and they'll have handed over 'heritage' status to the likes of San Martin.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Well, I don't think they "think" they are Rolex. But I do think they "feel their own" responsibility to be innovative.
@Mystery_Man84
3 ай бұрын
@@islandwatch well then they keep their “innovations” because nobody wants to pay “top dollar” for those entry level watches
@sakhawathossainniloy3052
3 ай бұрын
I agree with all of the points you made. However, the issue I strongly have with seikos below 500 usd watches is that it does not offer a sapphire crystal 99 percent of the time. I cannot say this about other major brands that are par with Seiko. I seriously feel if they started using sapphire crystals with those usd 250+ watches, people would complain less. Also, having said that, being a watch enthusiast is extremely hard due to the economic crisis all over the world. Especially for people like us living in Southeast asia(I am from Bangladesh), where our wages are outrageously low in comparison to the inflation that hits every year. However, thanks for sharing your perspective. It really does make a lot of sense.
@tylerjames646
3 ай бұрын
Very insightful. This is one of the most informative videos about the industry I've ever watched.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Many thanks.
@kenfritz9565
3 ай бұрын
Mark, nice video. It was well done, and I completely understand your argument-it was very clear and professional. However, for the average person buying a watch, the details might not make a significant difference. I believe (and hope) that most people conduct their due diligence, comparing watches based on appearance, mechanical quality, and availability, before choosing the one that meets all their criteria. If Seiko is the best fit, they should go for it, but often there are better options available at a more competitive price. I understand the effects of inflation and brand power, but we are buying a watch for now. About a year ago, I bought a Seiko SSK-19; eight months ago, I got an Islander-19 for less money. The Islander finds its way to my wrist far more often than the Seiko because it's a better watch: more accurate, readable, durable, cleaner-looking, and comfortable. I can't feel sorry for Seiko. They have their brand strength and large following-they make good watches, but the one I purchased at a lower price is simply better. I enjoy buying quality items from micro-brands because I think they work harder to produce a product with their name on it than the corporate giants do. I'm just saying. Thanks again for your concern and hard work.
@brianmccord7387
3 ай бұрын
It’s videos like this that make me wish I had just stuck with the Timex Ironman I wore with everything starting in the Clinton years. I’m not going to be convinced that a company that can’t even bother to do QC on its bezels and chapter rings is charging me a fair price for its new products. That’s leaving aside the use of pressed clasps, hollow endlinks, aluminum bezels, and glorified mineral crystals.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
You seen Timex today? Not the same.
@brianmccord7387
3 ай бұрын
@@islandwatch I hear you Marc, but I can still get an Ironman under $40 from Amazon and I see plenty of political operatives wearing them under suits in DC. They are a GADA watch for a certain segment.
@LauraKnotek
2 ай бұрын
Great video! I agree with what you say regarding price comparisons of old and new Seiko watches that are the same or similar. In my opinion, Seiko is overpriced for what you get. They haven't upgraded their movement in years, and the movements they use are much less accurate than those used by Swiss brands like Tissot. Yes, most Tissot watches a more expensive than Seiko watches, but you get an 80 hour power reserve on the Tissot and better specs regarding accuracy.
@GailitisPrintmaking
2 ай бұрын
I would say that the inflation argument for the everyday person is not acurate as the salary has not increased according to inflation. Hence de facto their purchasing power is less than it used to be.
@Justme0495
3 ай бұрын
I can't thank you enough for this video, Mark! That's exactly what I'm telling people all the time! Especially the global retail part, heritage and service is my main argument! Also consider every part on a Seiko is made by Seiko. It's not parts from different companies thrown together. I'm not bashing micro brands here, but I'm so sick and tired of people bashing Seiko. When was the last time you didn't have to pay for a brand name? Exactly, isn't happening. You can get a smartphone for less, than Apple is charging, yet Apple can sell at a higher price, because of their name and guess what, people are gladly willing to pay!
@SerialWheeler
2 ай бұрын
Definitely inflation is to blame, even though salaries don't seem to be keeping up with the inflation rise...still, I do agree with your points. Btw, are you aware if Seiko has completely discontinued the SPB197J1 Mountain Glacier Alpinist (technically it was supposed to be the unlimited Mountain Glacier)? Thanks for your response! Truly love your content.
@scottyb069
3 ай бұрын
Seiko always used to be a lot of watch for your money, and I'm kind of glad that their prices have gone up to where they probably should have been. I can also now sell off some of my seiko's without loosing any money and buy that Omega I have always wanted :)
@michaeldonaher9041
Ай бұрын
do you offer tours of your watch factory
@hvacae6904
Ай бұрын
I noticed that from 2016 seiko price doubled to 2024 with same model they are selling
@johnnytifosi
3 ай бұрын
The only convincing argument for the huge price hikes is the elimination of the gray market. Can someone explain what exactly happened? Have Seiko disappeared from the well known third party sellers? CW is still carrying Seiko but prices have doubled since 5-6 years ago, so something still doesn't add up.
@oorangeo
3 ай бұрын
Blew my mind. Excellent video. Thanks for doing that research and putting this together. I'm so tired of people complaining about seiko prices. (... Please get rid of that Sriracha bottle though it's really ugly 😓)
@friskjidjidoglu7415
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for letting this video. It is something that I think has been desperately needed in the watch community. You have people left and right just spouting straight up nonsense, and all because of a game of telephone
@genbu3834
3 ай бұрын
Maybe because from their supplier, stainless steel price are going up. So they have to make a choice : same quality but price up or same price but quality down.
@fabiansuarez523
2 ай бұрын
Mark are you going to have SPB453. I will likecto buy from an AD . Hope you answer
@scottlarson535
3 ай бұрын
I totally agree with you Mark, Seiko watches are on par for their prices. I'm actually one of your canadian customers, a long while ago (2018) i purchased a SKX007J1 off you and had your watchsmith install a dd sapphire and a oyster bracelet... total cost at that time was $585cdn.... a great deal for what i got. A couple of months ago I purchased a Save the ocean black manta samurai special edition in Edmonton from an AD Seiko dealer on sale for $685cdn.... sapphire, metal bracelet, ceramic bezel.... another great deal. I own 21 Seiko's ... most i love some i hate... all worth their msrp value... The only problems I have with Seiko are their quality control... Citizen can do it, why is Seiko so poor at it. their bracelets, .. poor quality ... you showed a great example Mark, Seiko oem for 120 usd ... 160cdn..... for a stamped clasp and pinned links.... nope........ lol btw my Samurai rocks the rubber strap that was originally on the SKX... because your a good dealer, you sent me my original parts from my SKX mod... and now I have a solid work watch... and an SKX007J1 in mint condition worth more than I paid for it..
@BaronStVon
2 ай бұрын
Thank you for sharing your business knowledge
@packersfan117
3 ай бұрын
I see your points, Marc. I like dealing with microbrands--I have purchased 4 watches from you, 3 are Islanders--because of the value given. I don't care about heritage too much, because heritage equals more money. I want the best product I can get within my modest budget, and microbrands offer this with an homage watch with better specs. Take the Seiko Monster. I have a Seiko Halloween Monster, and I have your homage in orange. Your product has a better movement (hand wind capable!!), plus a sapphire crystal, and Seiko doesn't make that. I love both watches, but there's a reason I bought your product instead of a Seiko Orange Monster to go with the Halloween.
@DownTwisted
3 ай бұрын
I am a fan of Seiko (own many models) and I mostly agree with your three points. But. One point you didn't cover was the economy of scale. Seiko makes 10,000 of each SKU, maybe even 10,000 of each dial/variation within a SKU. Massive production numbers. Massive production, especially from an established company like Seiko or Citizen greatly reduces the overall manufacturing costs. The overall cost is greater, but the cost per unit drops significantly. Micro-brands buy at higher wholesale prices (from them), usually pay more per unit in assembly/shipping then Seiko/Citizen. Will often use better quality materials (Sapphire, ect.) as still manage to do it for hundreds of dollars less then the big guys. You can't convince me that upwards of half of the MSRP of a $700 Seiko is solely to due distribution, sales, marketing, ect, ect.. When I can build a 200M titanium cased, 120 click ceramic bezel, titanium micro adjustable band, sapphire crystal, custom dial/hands and a NH-XX/4R-XX movement for under $200. Now granted, not everyone can, or wants to build a watch from scratch. And/or just want a recognizable name brand on their wrist. But that doesn't change the math.
@silajeep1
3 ай бұрын
But you are only assembling a watch from parts made by others, so you didn't actually make a watch as such. So, you have no manufacturing overheads to factor in to your watch price. Just saying
@DownTwisted
3 ай бұрын
@@silajeep1 Yes, but No. My "manufacturing costs" are already baked into the higher wholesale/retail price of the pieces I buy. I am not sure, but I'd guess even Seiko buys some of their parts from a 3rd party contracted to make them. I somehow doubt Seiko owns a metal foundry and makes their watch cases inhouse. I could be wrong thou.
@vladimirnovakovic3495
3 ай бұрын
Good pitch. Would be interesting to see also the evolution of sales figures for Seiko wristwatches in relation with the price increase.
@islandwatch
3 ай бұрын
Good idea 💡
@protoman2260
3 ай бұрын
I got a Seiko presage for $1k on Sakura watches. Is that the grey market?
@johnd-xd9sn
3 ай бұрын
The price appreciation of my SARB017 since its acquisition years ago has really shot up. Not worth the price being asked these days
@dogabarisozdemir
3 ай бұрын
We should add consideration economies of scale. If we have data which indicates seiko produces more watches, we can say they are more profitable than before so we can ask seiko to decrease their prices. But there is not this much rational thinking while demanding lower prices in general view. Price is only just cross at right spot when demand and supply meets. Good points as always and nice color sweatshirt 🤘🏻
@sw-iz1ux
2 ай бұрын
Also, ISO certification makes a Seiko diver something you can use with the confidence of a toddler jumping into their dad’s arms. Thanks Mark!
@blakslee720
2 ай бұрын
I get the price issue, really. But as time goes on, I find myself thinking less about it and more about “do I like the watch/do I want what it offers.” Form example, I recently bought a Marathon arctic GSAR. The bracelet blows and the clasp is stamped. My spb213 and San Martin sn0109 bracelets are so so so much nicer for 50-80% less money. But I bought each of them cause that’s what I wanted/needed, I didn’t really cross shop looking for specs or value. Now, I want an spb239, but I already have a 62 mas, so I’ll probably get an spb240 instead. Or maybe I’ll delay that because Xeric makes amazing looking pieces for similar prices to the Seiko MM200. But I’ll still get an MM200 at some point, cause they’re cool, and I want one. First world problems, I do have enough financial stability to buy multiple watches. I’m sure there are people out there who can only afford one and agonize over things I don’t care about, cause I’ll just buy another watch instead.
@stuartlcanton
2 ай бұрын
Its weird to think that if the new tsuyoza and forza citizen or the prx came out 10 years ago that would have been like a seiko type watch
@tkindschi
3 ай бұрын
Just a point of order: I've bought 3 Seiko watches in the last 2 or 3 years, all from authorized dealers, and have never paid MSRP for them. (Usually 15-20% lower). Granted, they don't ADVERTIZE those prices, but the lower price is freely given with little begging or bargaining. I don't know how (or if) that is has changed over the 15 or 20 years that you are talking about here, but I think that helps narrow the gap between long ago, and recent prices, which are usually quoted using MSRP.
@GapBahnDirk
3 ай бұрын
Your points are very valid. I particularly like Seiko's design language. At the higher end of the value scale, i purchased a Seiko SLA055 diver in everbrilliant steel, out of Japan for approx. USD$3,200. Comparing the quality of the watch, including the movement with a Rolex Sub, the Seiko is superior and much, much cheaper. It does not have the brand "status" of the Rolex amongst the general public or the resale upside (probably), but to me it is better value and a better looking watch.
@NazidKimmie
3 ай бұрын
Awesome video, you make some very salient points - but I think your last point is really the most relevant when we talk about the 'perception of value for money' - yeah in the saturated microbrand world, they DO offer better bang for buck, I bought Seiko because I percieve them to be value for money against the luxury Swiss brands for instance. So, it really depends at what end of the market you realistically want to be at. I'm never going to own a Rolex (just don't want one) but I also see other watch brands in that category that for me (my perception, marketing whatever) offer better value for money - if not the same bragging rights (but since when do real horologists care about that!). I think Seiko, due to the market shifts and the issues you pointed out, are in a bit of quandry though... espcially in that value (shopping mall price) entry to mid level - watches have already lost out to smart watches (yeah we can howl about it but the numbers show this to be true), so how do we introduce new and youngsters to the joy of watches? If they are going to be considered a little more 'up market' - in price, maybe they need to offer better value for money? I understand that production costs and the sheer industrial might and commercial reach they have can make this trickier - but come on, no sapphire for an entry level mechanical watch?
@dandechino2
3 ай бұрын
Good information. I might be looking at Islander for my next watch
@MrKkramme
3 ай бұрын
Good informative and objective video. Thanks 🙏
@ajh5407
3 ай бұрын
People also discount how much seiko has invested into producing the new GMT movements. As well as the fact they are supplying half the micro brand industry it seems.
@jeffreyalbarandorivera8595
3 ай бұрын
They will no longer build an affordable watches because they have a tons of movements which will be creatd for microbrands and they are cheap. And that Seiko know exactly that people will build a mod watches to represent the original one.
@Zotrax1946
3 ай бұрын
Someone defending Seiko for a change- you’re my hero💪🏻!!! 😉😁 Great points, Marc, backed by research. Thank you for bringing it up to the conversation 🙏🏻
@zosothezephead837
3 ай бұрын
The thing that sticks in my throat is the ridiculous inflated prices of the Alpinist. I bought mine years ago for less than £300 - Seiko are milking that model for all it's worth as if it's a Moonwatch.
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