What ultimate is missing is a man in his mid 30s going to 10 year old birthday parties and beating them with DeDeDe for $200
@aquilleswinkler5051
10 ай бұрын
More CONEY Storytime!
@micahfurlow2624
10 ай бұрын
A Coney classic for everyone to enjoy!
@vanillajellyfish
10 ай бұрын
This is the correct answer
@ToadtheGreat1
10 ай бұрын
Nah bruh never send a smash player to a 10 year old birthday party
@jackcampbell2021
10 ай бұрын
@@ToadtheGreat1fuuuuuucckkkkk 😂😂
@hhypnoz
10 ай бұрын
My brother in Christ, you NEED to run a tournament or invitational with this format. Call it Coney's Controversy. I'd watch the fuck out of it
@dyllnye1239
10 ай бұрын
This format would be great for an Alpharad invitational
@trickytristan1
10 ай бұрын
@@dyllnye1239 The "How did we get here podcast" invitational
@CadenceDavis-iz8nq
10 ай бұрын
That'd be sick
@nathaniel7165
10 ай бұрын
If you want even more alliteration you could call it Coney’s Controversial Clash
@NewPolkCity
10 ай бұрын
Conetroversy #1
@yacobo4397
10 ай бұрын
tl: dw: no warioware
@Kittyhat
10 ай бұрын
TRUEEEE GIVE US THE 4-PLAT
@anon122697
10 ай бұрын
So true bestie
@lizzly25
10 ай бұрын
Unabashedly true.
@SonicTheCutehog
10 ай бұрын
WarioWare Inc is a stage
@buff00n3ry
10 ай бұрын
Game 5 WarioWare would go CRAZY
@buff00n3ry
10 ай бұрын
"Why have a stage there if someone's just gonna ban it?" During my Smash 4 Smashladder era, I stopped banning Lylat: No one ever wanted to play there. Most people banned it. So, I had an idea; why ban Lylat if most people aren't selecting it? I could ban other stages and leave someone 2nd guessing if they wanted to play a stage that was bad for them, or deal with Lylat I usually won that coin toss, and if / when I didn't, I was one of those people who didn't mind Lylat. It was win-win.
@Squiferz
10 ай бұрын
smart but now there arent really any legal stages people HATE playing on, so it doesnt really work
@huntergottlieb3943
10 ай бұрын
You also get weirdos like me that love Lialat because my character is busted on it (Smash 4 Sonic). True MU knowledge check.
@npclucario7005
10 ай бұрын
@@Squiferz fd
@Scorpio3002
9 ай бұрын
That's why I left Lylat legal in all my Ultimate tournaments. I had players who didn't "waste" a ban on it, only to get taken there and despair at their own hubris.
@AArchunBestGOD
9 ай бұрын
Good 4 Wii U I Play In All
@C_Floor
10 ай бұрын
Biggest problem for me is the stage list. Tired of seeing wall-to-wall PS2. I don't CARE if it's the most "neutral" stage they should CHANGE it for MY viewing pleasure
@ziggyhfx8202
10 ай бұрын
So fucking based
@614showtime
10 ай бұрын
The funny thing is it’s not the most neutral though lol. We’ve been seeing Ike ladder since the start of the game, Mario ladders, sonic camping, Steve’s best materials etc It’s just the comfort zone
@TheBadBuffalo
10 ай бұрын
The longest stage being the “most neutral” is a lie forged by Big Smash
@alexanerose4820
10 ай бұрын
Yeah the stages are part of the fun but seeing the samw stype over and over again gets boring real fast. Your character and playstyle should take the stage into accocount
@judekaraki1650
10 ай бұрын
wouldnt give a shit if it was only ps2 if i didnt have to watch characters that double the match length on ps2
@mitchellsmith2628
10 ай бұрын
As someone who's been around since Brawl, this has been a slow gradual slip from the end of Brawl into Smash 4 into Ultimate. Everything has grown more and more samey in every respect and its the newest generation that's the worst about it. Not to sound like a boomer cuz I'm in my 20s but like, we used to play on RAINBOW CRUISE IN TOURNAMENT. Now people freak out because there's a stage where you can wall jump a little bit. Absolutely insane
@idontcheckmynotifications
10 ай бұрын
I know Mario Kart isn’t seriously competitive but you can see the same kinda crap there. More balanced but homogenous and boring. Mkwii is peak
@DataDrain02
10 ай бұрын
Yeah, I remember the only reason Delfino Plaza, and I THINK Halberd were banned was because of Meta Knight sharking hardcore on those stages. But yeah, back in Brawl, there were a lot more dubious stages.... And that was better for viewers, I feel. (Also, why don't they use Omega and Battlefield stages? Just count them as Battlefield and Final Destination picks.)
@mitchellsmith2628
10 ай бұрын
@DataDrain02 most of the out there stages were eventually banned because of MK unfortunately
@DataDrain02
10 ай бұрын
@@mitchellsmith2628 Yeah.... But, that still proves a bit of a point. If Meta Knight didn't exist in Brawl. Those stages likely would have remained legal.
@mitchellsmith2628
10 ай бұрын
@DataDrain02 oh yeah of course. No argument there. I'm just saying that's when it started and following games adopted stricter and stricter stage lists (even though they truly never needed to)
@drstclair
10 ай бұрын
I think what you're saying is 100% right. I come from Melee, but some of the most exciting sets are sometimes the unexpected short ones. I was there for Jmook vs IBDW at Genesis 8. The entire Top 8 set was only 10 minutes. And this was in a Bo5 without bans AND Jmook won on the worst stage in the matchup (Final Destination) twice. The length of time and the lack of stage variety seems like it's good on paper for balance and helps the players, but it hurts viewership.
@jonathanc3001
10 ай бұрын
IMDB 😂
@yankees2864
10 ай бұрын
Coming from melee yet saying IMBD is crazy
@drstclair
10 ай бұрын
@@jonathanc3001 had to use the old tag in case some people wanted to look up the set.
@drstclair
10 ай бұрын
@@yankees2864 tagging you too so you see my reason.
@jonathanc3001
10 ай бұрын
@@drstclair no, IMDB is a movie info website. His tag was IBDW lol
@Mindgamingu
10 ай бұрын
I mentioned this on twitter. Smash is a fighting game that has near unlimited customization options for stages, rules, etc. The reason why we waste all of the potential this game has is beyond me.
@justiceiria869
10 ай бұрын
People need to learn to enjoy to game and its mechanics for what it is.
@alexanderjakubowski5673
9 ай бұрын
It's because there are no dumb metagaming mechanics or exploits for them to cheese the game. That's literally it.
@vandagylon2885
9 ай бұрын
It's not a fighting game
@Mindgamingu
9 ай бұрын
@@vandagylon2885 yea sure.
@jeremiahgreen5632
9 ай бұрын
@@vandagylon2885You must not know what a fighting game is, to say ssbu is not a fighting game.
@drsaltbox
10 ай бұрын
Love this idea. You should run a tournament with these rules to see how it would play out. Folks would watch, I would.
@sinfinite7516
10 ай бұрын
I swear you need to ban gentlemen because otherwise we are gonna get another Gimvitational
@Accountthatexists
10 ай бұрын
It would be cool to add spirits to the mix......I just want to see more tourneys with spirits, cause when I saw spirits at ultimate launch, I thought "oh this could be cool as shit for competitive" when I saw all the effects which would be dope, and more spirits kept gettin added and smash ultimate could be different then the rest by adding customization to ur loadout .......but for some reason, they got overlooked for some reason, ......the only "problem" that I could see with is that u can't transfer the spirits from console to console.....and the easy solution to that is just have the switch the tourney is at have all spirits, and have the players just make there team before hand and in the char select screen, just mark the saved team as the Competitors name, easy switch......I would like that in a comey tourney and wish it was apart of smash in general
@LeahLuciB
10 ай бұрын
Wait, I missed this. How did gentlemen's ruin gimvitational? I was super syoled for it until I saw 2 kazuyas and 3 steves, and I skipped it
@LeahLuciB
10 ай бұрын
stoked*
@usmansiddiqui1384
10 ай бұрын
@@AccountthatexistsI love the idea of spicing things up with spirits, but it has a couple of massive problems. For larger tournaments, you don’t have only one switch, it’s usually hundreds. Getting all those set up would be impractical. And the other issue is that spirits are VERY imbalanced, and top players won’t be willing to commit the time and energy required to play with them at a high level. For a side event, it would be quite fun though.
@yerthebestaround9654
10 ай бұрын
Every current legal stage in this game can pretty much be chosen as a starter. There are NO real counter-pick stages in this game. Everyone always complains about having to ban stages. Like, YEAH, that's the point of a counter-pick, it's supposed to give one person an advantage. And then you get to do the same thing right back to them when you lose that game.
@hunbi1875
10 ай бұрын
Yeah the current meta is just "Maybe I ban battlefield or FD if it's gnw or kazuya."
@williamw8590
10 ай бұрын
FD is the counterpick-est stage rn LOL
@Cupoforangejuice15
10 ай бұрын
@@hunbi1875 literally. Just ban those two stages and then whatever character they pull out, doesn't even matter since the stage will be mostly neutral.
@GabrielHodge
8 ай бұрын
Fd is not as polarizing as it was in melee
@yerthebestaround9654
8 ай бұрын
@@GabrielHodge Okay? Good for Melee? This is Ultimate, compared to the rest of the legal stages FD is definitely the most polarizing.
@hughmungus227
10 ай бұрын
The stage thing is annoying. It gets so tiresome when all the players just go to PS2 all the time. It's so common they have that stupid "run it back" motion they do with their hand. Other fighting game communities don't do that. You're not supposed to just win and be like, "Hey bro, wanna skip doing bans and you counter picking a stage?" But they do it anyway. Yet STILL the sets go for up to 50 minutes. Wild.
@BeretBay
10 ай бұрын
Other fighting game players actually get confused looking at competitive Smashers.
@legrandliseurtri7495
10 ай бұрын
Sets never go up to 50 minutes...35 minutes is the absolute highest, average is more like 20 minutes. Including the time between games.
@hughmungus227
10 ай бұрын
@@legrandliseurtri7495 You're right. That 51 minute video was when they had a reset so that was actually two sets. But still they feel very lengthy and stage variety is very low.
@minixlemonade2335
10 ай бұрын
@@hughmungus227Probably because the majority of ult games rn is two players camping for like 20 minutes until one of them run into the 70% up tilt combo
@hughmungus227
9 ай бұрын
@@tba6604 In other fighting games, the stage typically doesn't matter because it's just the background changing. In platform fighters the stage matters greatly.
@randomthorn9286
10 ай бұрын
Fully agree with the stagelist. These new stages aren't even un-competitive, they are just different. I would LOVE AN invitational that FORCES these new stages to be played on
@Spyder-Marth
10 ай бұрын
Exactly.
@juneru2
9 ай бұрын
Yea I want those stages added and many of the similar stages removed like Small Battlefield/PS2, FD/Town, or Smashville/Hollow Bastion.
@Bingo_Bango_
9 ай бұрын
As someone who tapped out of Ultimate pretty early, I was shocked when he got to that section. Why would a game with dozens of uncontroversial stages and a hazard toggle ever end up with this fate? Doomed to have a stage list that is 3 totally-not-battlefield clones featuring big box FD for starter options, and then only allowing two stages with tight boxes as counterpicks only? UFA at least did slightly better by only giving three bans and then supporting 4x tight box stages (too many to get rid of every single one, forcing a decision between an actual counterpick or a close-quarters stage at best). For a very limited stage list (in classic starter/counterpick style): Battlefield, FD, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, counterpicks: WarioWare, Fountain of Dreams, Lylat, Yoshi's Story. If you want to babysit players so they don't have to learn any stage variety, then at least do us all the favor of copycatting Pound 2019's pre-DLC list with PS1 shenanigans lying in wait and Lylat as a starter.
@tetros5265
8 ай бұрын
I recommend the ssbwiki page on stage legality, it goes into detail across the series, has detailed information on why stages are legal or banned. The majority of stages tend to be banned for pervasive walk offs/blast lines[29], caves of life (Ala smash dome in temple) or allow infinites[27], are too large, promote circle camping/stalling[26], have disruptive geometry [17], and randomized layouts[6], keep in mind, many stages have more than one reason. I was honestly agreeing with you, even as a melee fan, but man those are not bad reasons to not use stages, the lesser common ones I didn't include are less egregious usually but make sense, things that are minor gripes, but because very similar stages exist, are redundant. I guess it's just a shame smash ultimate had to have so many stages, many being outdated and simple. Of course it's awesome, and I'm glad. But there are so so so many ideas for completely different, unique, interesting, gameplan changing stages that are competitive.( see melee competitive stages mod and it doesn't even try anything too crazy, partially bc it's a lot of work, partially bc limitations.) A Floating wall in the upper middle of a otherwise normal ps type Or a stage with two offstage plats on each side that act as a teeter totter, (imagine this on doubles!!) Or a stage with toggles in the background that you hit and it changes the layout of the platforms. It's such a shame stages like yoshis story and fountain are limited in legality or straight banned, these are the wackiest stages in MELEE, we play with unfrozen retro jank Pokemon stadium too. Big reason for the difference is the amount of options, the lack of diversity, and theory but modern smash players being punished by samurai throughout brawl, and 4, I don't blame them, both games has a legal stage count of 6. Halberd was legal for a decent period of smash 4s life?? It has a giant cannon that tracks you down and insta kills you??? WHAT thats one of the more competitive stages??? (shout-out to 64 with 1 legal stage) @@Bingo_Bango_
@tetros5265
8 ай бұрын
@@Bingo_Bango_Biggest red flag to me, and was part of the reason for a decent number of your list, was "horizontal blast zones too close" which honestly??? If you don't want to die extremely early, don't stay at the edges of the stage the whole game, you shouldn't be at the same risk of dying until 70+ percent center stage vs in the corner.
@officernealy
10 ай бұрын
I know this is more of a lighthearted video, but beyond never having been bored with Ultimate I especially have a desire to get more invested in it because this weekend one of my oldest friends and my "Smash rival" sadly passed away from a long battle from complications brought on by Crohn's. He was the best player I ever knew, seriously his Yoshi was such a demon that he could have made a serious run at pro, & he'd never forgive me if I didn't keep my skill sharp. I owe him that much. RIP, Johannes.
@Oreca2005
10 ай бұрын
Salute my man Salute
@Mythol-OG
10 ай бұрын
My condolences for your loss, amice. May the Ike philosophy serve you well.
@datbryguy5077
10 ай бұрын
Oh man, sorry for your "rivals" loss. Rest In Peace ❤
@treythomas7193
10 ай бұрын
Beat ppl only with Yoshi on his birthday every year
@officernealy
10 ай бұрын
@@treythomas7193 As a Snake main who pockets Sephiroth & Ness, that sounds brutal but I also really like that idea and I’m willing to try that. Thanks for the suggestion, friend!
@grim_blazer9120
10 ай бұрын
I was so mad when they started taking kalos, warioware, and lylat out of rulesets, I really wish they would allow them again
@splaturials9156
10 ай бұрын
Kalos is okay and allowed at every event I play wario ware is a absolute no andthats for the better
@karisasani7006
10 ай бұрын
@@splaturials9156From what I gather... Kalos eventually got replaced with that one which came with sephiroth
@Aidswayz
10 ай бұрын
I honestly agree with Coney on all of this, which is something I would have not said about a year ago. WarioWare makes things more fair for UNFAIR bullshit to happen, because it would happen to everyone. And jesus fucking christ if I have to see the same black and green background on PS2 one more time I'm going to lose it. And Coney is once again right for saying that we are in no position for making the players have a more disadvantaged state for our own entertainment when they are the ones playing. Honestly shocked by how right Coney was in this video But then you get to 24:50 and see someone in the chat calling Coney a cunt and because one random viewer disagrees then the entire video is thrown out the window Edit: The fact people can’t tell the most obvious sounding sarcasm in the world in this post concerns me
@underplayer420
10 ай бұрын
He has a different oppinion than me therefore he is wrong
@judekaraki1650
10 ай бұрын
all of these problems would be negated if the games were interesting. they arent interesting because of the characters being played. dance around it all you would like, boring characters make boring games make boring make a boring watch. simple as.
@DrSwazz
10 ай бұрын
We obviously can't tell the players what stages to pick. But we also don't have to watch them either.
@Cheezmonka
10 ай бұрын
@@judekaraki1650But those boring characters would not be able to execute their boring gameplans on stages like Warioware or Yoshi's. The stages matter a ton.
@Tribow
10 ай бұрын
the last bit of this comment is so funny because the most meaningless thing included in this video "ruined the whole video". Homie I din't think you should let a twitch chat message hold that much weight lmao
@GalaxianSR
10 ай бұрын
I miss storylines and rivalries that Sm4sh had. Having circuits and tournament series over a year or 2 span, with high stakes and actually reasons for people to be playing made it so exciting to watch every tournament and see how people did and are going to do. To me, tournaments have very little reason nowadays besides just being a tournament.
@mcmann2243
10 ай бұрын
I really liked early ultimate, especially when Leo was #1 by far, for this reason exactly. It felt like everyone wanted to beat him, but he was just near-untouchable
@GalaxianSR
10 ай бұрын
@@mcmann2243 Yeah, it's basically the wild west rn, so many people have shots at winning (not that that's a bad thing), and just so many different tournaments that it just lacks the cohesiveness of previous smash games. It's starting to come together tho, kinda.
@natecallon9755
9 ай бұрын
One of the reasons I miss sm4sh
@SpaghettiJoBayBay
9 ай бұрын
We could have that but most people are either too afraid or lack the skill to trash talk. Smash 4 imo was the last of that era of tournaments imo. It felt like more was on the line because we had some strong personalities playing who have history. I wish tournaments were more like Pro Wrestling, not that matches are fixed but people play a character. Players lack personalities, they already go by tags why not play a character? Just imagine if MK Leo was a heel? Just talked mad shit but you had to respect him because he has the skills to back it up? You'd feel more inclined to watch just in case someone humbles him. I know money is on the line and playing character might not be the best if you're trying to be put on teams but just imagine it.
@PlayMadness
9 ай бұрын
This is what came to mind seeing the title. Ever since I started following Smash with Melee's place at MLG way back in the day, there have always been storylines, personalities, and people to follow. Ultimate has nothing. The entire professional scene is comprised of players about as interesting as a saltine.
@Grapevin
8 ай бұрын
Spectators have been BEGGING for a new stagelist since 2019. TOs don't care, because getting the best players to show up is the #1 factor in drawing attention and if you throw weird shit at them they simply will not go. Every time I see a big-ish tournament try to actually make the game fun they get punished for it. It's such an unfortunate feedback loop but I don't see the solution.
@stkkjj
10 ай бұрын
I really enjoyed watching ultimate early on, especially when mkleo was on top. These days though ive just been more into melee. Its easier to follow with the smaller cast, better storylines, and a better defined community and history. The complicated melee things are just more fun to watch and it feels like it has an essence that continues that ultimate has lost.
@dingo9696
10 ай бұрын
Melee is dead as shit too right now lol. And Im somebody who believes its a way better game than ult.
@Ellesenzacognome
10 ай бұрын
@@dingo9696what fk are you saying lol
@Ellesenzacognome
10 ай бұрын
The big house stream had like 400k spectators
@dingo9696
10 ай бұрын
@@Ellesenzacognome you stupid? Big house 11 didnt even hit 50k peak viewers. The average was 15k.
@bobbafett5175
10 ай бұрын
UFA having Lylat was such a breath of fresh air. People are so scared of that stage whose biggest problem post-pandemic is that Kirby sometimes doesn't have a good time on the ledges. Every problem got patched out but people want the stage gone anyway because of Smash 4 PTSD. Lylat makes hype games.
@staticchimera44
10 ай бұрын
Lylat is a really good stage for Kirby too, so it's not even that big of an issue. People just have Smash 4 PTSD and/or hate slants
@BurningNight314
10 ай бұрын
Lylat is innocent! People will blame any weird situation on the stage even when it has nothing to do with the stage.
@buff00n3ry
10 ай бұрын
Add that Lylat's awful for Steve and Kazuya, but: " B-b-b-b-b-ut *MY* character's bad on Lylat cuz *SLANTS* ! I don't wanna give someone an advantage ! " ... then BAN it, numbnuts. If your sole argument is "my character struggles on this stage" as the primary reason why that stage shouldn't be legal, that doesn't warrant a whole ass stage getting banned from a stagelist. Get better.
@splaturials9156
10 ай бұрын
Lylat is rhe dumbest legal stage ever... why is it legal like it has slopes and moves ew
@buff00n3ry
10 ай бұрын
@@splaturials9156 It doesn't move anymore
@frapple_apple
10 ай бұрын
Going off Coney's point about Ultimate sets being so long, I'm coming from the FGC and I was ASTOUNDED at how long sets take. I was at a tournament that had both SF6 and Ultimate, I was there for SF6. At one point, the TO told me my next match was against someone who had to play a Smash match first. I went over to the person and saw their set was just starting, so I watched a bit of it here and there while talking to friends. It was Palutena vs. Pikachu, every match was on the same stage, and the Palutena just kept running away every single match. I waited for FOURTY-FIVE minutes to play my set with this person. For any other game, I've never had to wait longer than 10 minutes. Absolutely insane how long Smash sets are.
@Orphan-Source
10 ай бұрын
Palutena do be running away every match
@legrandliseurtri7495
10 ай бұрын
45 minutes seems very unlikely if it was a best of five. Even the worst sonic sets don't go above 35 minutes, including the time between games.
@dontclickonmyvideos6477
9 ай бұрын
he is not saying the set took 45 minutes. He is saying he waited for his own set to start for 45 minutes.
@KeleuHerdley
9 ай бұрын
@@legrandliseurtri7495maybe they also took a long time to ban stages or choose counterpick characters. Some players take a long ass time doing that from my experience.
@Gamersgoinblind
10 ай бұрын
The whole stage thing reminds me of the fighting game one where every tournament set was set on training room and it eventually got to the point where people got really sick of it.
@33link333
10 ай бұрын
I'm assuming you mean Street Fighter 5. Where it got to the point of people complaining, that Capcom banned the training stage in an official tournament.
@Joltman11
10 ай бұрын
It’s a bunch of them. UMVC3 only plays on Bonnie Wonderland because it’s the brightest stage and it’s hard to see on the darker stages. KOF 15 is only played on Training stage. For years everyone always played on Colosseum silent across multiple versions of Blazblue because it caused the least lag online. To date I think Strive still only plays on like 3 stages because they’re the least laggy. The list of fighting games that don’t have the issue of top players only playing on one or a handful of the available stages is at this point far shorter than the ones that do.
@scooter9537
10 ай бұрын
@@Joltman11 a bunch of stages lag in marvel 3, boon doesn't.
@DataDrain02
10 ай бұрын
@@Joltman11Back when Soul Calibur VI was played. I think there were only a few banned stages at launch. And then the devs fixed those stages. So.... Yeah, it was a game that actually had a lot of stages played on.
@DarkSymphony777
10 ай бұрын
The problem with training stages goes much deeper than that. Max dood did a entire video diving into it
@JayEazyWhat
8 ай бұрын
Thank God Jay Eazy Is Performing At The Biggest Smash Tournament In NYC Today ❤
@cwega2463
8 ай бұрын
big up jay Eazy. bro was never book smart !!
@LuigiLitoLL
10 ай бұрын
I think another major issue with Ultimate's stage ruleset is that it's been conservative since the launch of the game. Melee had gone through an era of stage removals for a decade and a half and technically is still going on with the use of modifications. We have seen what those stages do for the meta (Yoshi Island heavily favors Fox, Mute City for Peach) that the community had enough evidence and reason to ban it. Same went with Brawl, especially with a more meta centralized character that had heavy advantages on stages with a lot of aerial camping options (Rainbow Cruise) or sharking platforms (Halberd, Delfino). The sacrifice to these stages in order to bring Meta Knight down however led to the rise of other game-breaking meta characters that had a part in weakening the meta over time to end up supporting more strict rules outside of stage bans or god forbid character bans. Despite that however, Brawl had a fairly liberal stage list up until Apex 2012, it never had forced a set standard of stages from the beginning even though Meta Knight was already a top contender character even after a year of the game's released. Outside of the very first regionals and locals, Ultimate has always had the same stage list throughout it's entire competitive lifespan. This in turn not only leads to the same stages being seen across different sets and tournaments, but being like that for a grand total of five whole years with barely any changes outside like 2 additions and 3 removals (Yoshi, Kalos, and Lylat, which funnily enough, weren't even that bad of counterpick stages, I mean at least compared to what there was in Melee-Sm4sh, hell even Yoshi was a starter in Brawl). This longevity (along with the aformentioned top meta characters and all singles BO5) has led to the Ultimate meta not being able to develop a gradually healthy meta compared to that of Melee and to a lesser extent Brawl (not so much since MK mains were just getting better every month, but it at least gave spawn to a myriad of "solutions" to try and slow done a growing cancer in the meta before thinking about stage or *gasp* character bans), and I feel that once the next smash game comes out, people will be less reluctant to keep Smash Ultimate up any longer, despite being the most balanced (will likely change as top character meta's keep evolving and most of the others have already hit there potential) and housing the most content given out of any Smash games before and likely after, and that's really just a damn shame. Unless they want to define the meta of the next smash game and keep it interesting for years to come, it would be in there best interest to NOT set an extremely conservative stage list at the very beginning, maybe over time as the meta progresses into what is valued by the community, but at the very start is how you can lose interests very quickly afterwards.
@the0therethan
10 ай бұрын
this is def an essay not many people will read, but I def agree. It always confused me how ultimate got a competition player’s wet dream in the stage hazard toggle, and then we used basically the same 6 or 7 stages since the game’s release with NOBODY trying to vouch for new stages (except that one meme account that wanted wuhu island)
@grunkleg.29691
10 ай бұрын
@@the0therethanI think the reason hazard toggle fell through was because even in the present day, you still need to select entirely different rulesets if you want hazards on or off
@the0therethan
10 ай бұрын
@@grunkleg.29691 that’s true but not exactly what I’m getting at. There are so many hazards off stages that could’ve been at least tested but nobody ever seriously tried
@scooter9537
10 ай бұрын
I feel like ultimate having a conservative stagelist is kinda just the natural progression of the game especially in the more "esports" era. When ult dropped we had 4 previous smash games + PM worth of stage knowledge. We saw castle siege suck in brawl, we saw it be absolutely terrible in sm4sh, it makes sense to cut it early when it sucks again in ultimate. I also think what end up being controversial stages are less fun as a player. As a personal anecdote I remember my first set on anthers ladder on smash Wii u I got circle camped by a sonic on the duck hunt stage. I did not have fun.
@frazfrazfrazfraz
10 ай бұрын
Bro I am not reading this until you learn to fucking SEPARATE YOUR PARAGRAPHS
@Xanek
10 ай бұрын
Coney: Explains why the game isnt fun anymore and gives things that could fix it. Also Coney: Do nothing because it's too far in the meta. Seriously though, great video that explained quite a bit.
@callinater6133
9 ай бұрын
He only said to not change the ruleset (aka stock count and game timer). He still suggested the addition of more stages.
@AndresAndr95
10 ай бұрын
I think it’s the people who make it their whole life that says it sucks, I still play and watch tournaments and enjoy it. I think your timer idea and stage ideas are awesome, I don’t like wario ware but man I miss brawl with the crazy stages because it makes it even more fun honestly your right!
@k-dawgHI
10 ай бұрын
Yeah. I still play the game regularly and I still love it just a much. 😅 I can also definitely see that many people who play only a couple games regularly at some point start to develop the kind of “I have to do this” feeling that people get when they work at a job for a long time. That feeling where the passion goes away and it starts to become a chore y’know?
@illford
10 ай бұрын
Idk PS2 is really the culprit, it's too common
@jakeswierdfriend7204
10 ай бұрын
My favorite thing about coney is that the worst mistake he can ever make on stream is make any kind of genuine/heartfelt point
@TuesdayTastic
10 ай бұрын
I just hosted a tournament where we played on Warioware and players were living far longer than I expected. A pichu lived until 130 on that stage! The side blast zones are really close but the top blast zones are pretty normal. We also played on a bunch of other weird stages such as King of Fighters stadium, Dreamland, and Skyloft. The players of the tournament had a great time and said it was very refreshing compared to our usual stagelist.
@cebolla1449
9 ай бұрын
Hey, former SoCal PR Bowser player here - I totally agree! I mostly quit ult in ~ March of this year due to a mix of school responsibilities and what you’ve mentioned in this video here. It really sucked to see the character that I’d invested so much time and energy into labbing and figuring out drop from arguable top 20 in the pre-COVID era, to niche mid tier that could beat good players if the player piloting him had an immense upper hand in defensive fundamentals and punish game when I was at my peak, to low tier who gets absolutely blasted by characters he can’t keep up with on the massive stages that time him out or characters who take advantage of the stagelist to keep him in disadvantage hell for entire stocks. My performance at tournaments went from being directly correlated with how much time I’d spent on VOD review, writing matchup notes, improving my subconscious flowchart, labbing, etc to being directly correlated with whether or not I’d run into Steve, Kazuya, or Sonic at some point, and I think this vid does a great job of conveying why we’ve gotten to this point with the meta.
@GabrielHodge
8 ай бұрын
You can certainly still win a large event with bowser given the right player but that's how yoshi was in melee so never give up hope there's always meta game developments
@matthewbartlett3442
10 ай бұрын
26:40 I love how Coney has to clarify that he's not being wholesome
@kyallon1213
10 ай бұрын
The thing that’s unfortunate about this idea is that competitors just simply won’t embrace it even if implemented. Even though It would give players new stages and scenarios to lab, encourage more characters counter-picking, and just a general reason to grind the game other than “i’ve invested so much time into this game that i’m trapped and have to keep playing” (which lets be honest, is the only reason why competitive ultimate is still somewhat strong). I don’t believe for a second that people will actually bother to make use of any of it. We couldn’t even figure out hazards on.
@DeathKiller362
3 ай бұрын
that's why he said to wait until the next game and remember what happened. If you can push for these things in the next iteration then it's possible the game will last for longer and you'll be able to actually bring more people into smash. A big thing I've noticed with ultimate is how many of the players are or were actually just top or close to top sm4sh players. leo was nearly the best or the best at the end of sm4sh, marss was top 5 I think too, spargo was an online demon at the time or something. esam was still playing pikachu. It might have changed recently but honestly there are very few top playes in ultimate that actually started in ultimate...and that's odd. Sure, the beginning of the games are always dominated by the previous games pros (zer0 with brawl and sm4sh, m2k in melee and brawl, leo in sm4sh and ultimate) but it is incredibly odd that they stuck around the entire time imo. That's only really happened with m2k, who is an anomaly in the entire community in general to have been good at 3 different smash games at the same time until his fallout of sm4sh and eventually melee as well.
@jeffreybrown8422
10 ай бұрын
Spectator perspective should be taken a little serious if ad revenue and viewership is serious. Not to call it a spectator sport but the broadcast is for spectators and the broadcast's health depends on viewership retention. An anti-spectator perspective would definitely encourage great brokeness. I think we should hear this out. If changing the meta wouldn't flip the tables on on the players I would say let's do it now or for BO5s under a certain brackets to try it out (TOs can still try it out whatever they want). But broadening the available stage counterpicks and the strategies that will need cooked up for those stages is exciting. It's a layer of depth to the game that's just sitting there. But I respect how we got to the stage list we have. It's what I would have pushed for if I was competing. I get salty when I lose on banned stages in elite.
@kode-man23
10 ай бұрын
It's so interesting now that I've gotten into fighting games these past couple years, seeing the difference in culture. Smash is soooooooooo top-player-centric that it's crazy. I don't follow SF or MK that much, from the outside it feels like maybe they are a bit closer to Smash in that regard (also Tekken, maybe?). But still, it's nothing compared to Smash. The TOs in fighting games are all trying to appease the developer and get their event on the pro circuit. In Smash there is no developer, so everyone has put that same energy into the top players, it feels like. Maybe I'm wrong, that's just what it feels like.
@omfg322
10 ай бұрын
The entire meta is centered around how well a character can edge guard while simultaneously how well they can recover after being thrown off a stage. Only a handful of characters can do both of these well. I think playing of a flatter stage will open up the meta for more characters to shine
@DrSwazz
10 ай бұрын
LITTLE MAC SUPREMACY GO
@splaturials9156
10 ай бұрын
Untrue kazuya just kills you at o on stage
@legrandliseurtri7495
10 ай бұрын
No? Ultimate is notorious for being the smash game where edgeguarding matters the least.
@lordmew5
10 ай бұрын
@@legrandliseurtri7495eh not the least that's still tr4sh
@RamikinHorde
9 ай бұрын
Lol wat, edge guarding is barely relevant on this game
@dr.yuck-e7602
10 ай бұрын
This is absolutely true, I think a stagelist with more variety would make the game infinitely more interesting. I am so tired of watch the entirety of top 8 be played on PS2
@Shradow
10 ай бұрын
Stage list definitely fucking sucks, things are way too conservative. We need variance, and you'd think people would like Lylat considering it's Steve's worst stage and generally want smaller stages to combat zoners and Sonic. WarioWare would be a legitimate counterpick option, slants aren't bad, and I've always wanted legal Frigate again.
@grunkleg.29691
10 ай бұрын
Smash players when they see ramps (slanted):
@sageofsong
10 ай бұрын
Doesn't lylat give steve iron? I don't understand how that's bad for steve
@Shradow
10 ай бұрын
@@sageofsong Of the building blocks it gives him iron, but it gives him *only* iron. It is slower to mine and he can't build with with dirt, stone, or wood. TNT uses iron, crafting tables use iron, walls use iron. Compared to other stages, it hampers how much he can mine and how much he can build, and the stage is also pretty small so its easier to chase him around. Contrast that with PS2 which everyone gentlemans to and is a *great* stage for Steve. It's large, has a useful platform setup for him to build under/behind, and he gets stone as a minimum.
@WafflesDaPancake
10 ай бұрын
There's nothing scarier to an Ultimate player than a diagonal angle
@juneru2
9 ай бұрын
@@grunkleg.29691 it's funny cause slants also mess with Steve's walls, usually to the point where you can walk right through blocks cause they're not aligned properly.
@ShiRuBa3368
10 ай бұрын
ive been saying that reason why Ult is boring now is because the game mechanics favors boring slow characters who can control the pace of the match. I never considered that the stages also help that fact. Now this might because I'm Pika-pilled but fuck it, I'm down for Lylat, Warioware, or anything.
@ShiRuBa3368
10 ай бұрын
nvm, a minute later Coney said my opinion doesn't matter 😔
@grantpolley
9 ай бұрын
So we're not going to talk about problem characters, but we're going to cite a 50 minute Sonic vs G&W grand finals as a "stage" issue? Smash 4 unironically the better competitive game.
@ianlove3217
10 ай бұрын
What this game really needs is million dollar prize pools but ONLY if there is also Warioware with stage hazards on. The arrow dodge meta has some serious potential
@Matanumi
8 ай бұрын
.... or jusy pick RNGesus hero
@superflashyariel3835
8 ай бұрын
I saw a comment that brought this up and I never hear people mention this, but the lack of personality and engaging stories in the Smash Ultimate scene is a major contributing factor. To put it like this, I can describe several Melee players' personalities and the personal stories and struggles they went through. Hbox was one of the villains of smash bros, with a campy playstyle with puff. He acted arrogant, cocky, and intentionally riled up the crowd and got them to hate him. Amsa was the nice, sweet guy who played a low tier character. He fought his way to the top and ended up winning a major after a decade of struggles. Even during these struggles, he was always smiling and positive during these times. His motto was "I play to win". Leffen was a villain. Hateable, cocky as hell, childish, yet insane. He was not only memorable, but also insanely good with Fox. These are examples of Melee pros that have distinct personalities, playstyles, and stories that kept people engaged with Melee even after all these years. Meanwhile with Ultimate, as good as Leo, Spargo, Sonix, Acola, etc. are, I can’t describe anything about them. I don’t know anything about them or their personalities aside from “they’re good at smash”. They don’t maintain the same interest or have the same distinct personalities that Melee pros have. I think that’s one reason the scene for Ultimate is dying while Melee continues to thrive to this day. You can literally find hour long documentaries on Hungrybox and Amsa and Leffen and MangO. I haven't seen a single documentary on any smash ultimate pro.
@DeathKiller362
3 ай бұрын
when mkleo was winning everything in the beginning I think there was a story, since I think in the first year or 2 he won...every super major but like 2? so there was always the thing of "will this top 10 player beat leo and kick him out of the tournament"
@monikasalt
27 күн бұрын
Ults community being way too soft because of how many 13 year olds play and can't handle trash talking makes this game boring tbh.
@Connor_Kirkpatrick
10 ай бұрын
I thought for SURE this was going to be an episode of facts and opinions
@ItchyBurritoMiniAltThingy
10 ай бұрын
But it was 🤔
@MrSheng
10 ай бұрын
The reason it's boring is because of the high level gameplay that has emerged. -it's slow to look at. You don't get punished for not being aggressive, so why try? -this non commital neutral with pokes is tedious. Not great for spectators. -not a lot of surprise stocks taken. Most characters can make it back from pretty high knockback so this big swing in stocks rarely happens. -combos are too short, or not impressive to pull off. I went back to watching Melee this year, where very exciting new things seem to happen all the time, and watching Ultimate now is just so uneventful. I'm not really playing much these days so these are just observations from a spectator.
@Lividicuss
10 ай бұрын
One of the best tournaments I watched was the Why do's "anything goes". Any game this old needs some kind of breath of fresh air. It may not be the best for the pros but honestly, viewer engagement going away isnt good for pros either. Especially since a lot of the pros try to go the route of content creation anyway
@splaturials9156
10 ай бұрын
Sorry little bro but stream numbers dont lie stop saying games dyint bs when its just not true
@fluffydogloaf
10 ай бұрын
@@splaturials9156 and now we observe one of the last remaining few people that tune in to watch an entire top 32
@tobin2.0
9 ай бұрын
@@splaturials9156 you're part of the problem
@mrdocena8082
10 ай бұрын
Casuals: Leaving Smash Ultimate because most of the things they loved from previous Smashes (Items, Stages, Character Specials/FinalSmashes, Modes) were toned down to be more fair and balanced for competitive. Less randomness, less chaos, less fun at parties. Competitives: Leaving Smash Ultimate because even with all of the new balances, they still threw out most of it and stuck with the same Modes, Rules, Stages, Ban Lists and it's getting real boring. Congratulations, no one won.
@DarkAura19
10 ай бұрын
I still love ultimate but that doesn't change the fact that Coney is spitting. The game is old as shit. This is just how it is. Nintendo isn't going to let Smash die, Sakurai or otherwise, so we just wait for what's next and take what we got. We're still way better off than the end of 4's lifecycle.
@mgbrad5018
10 ай бұрын
CONEY SPITTING FACTS! I've played in and hosted for this game since launch. I hate seeing the green on PS2 so much and I hate how all smash players dont ever want to change anything. I legit go to some venues to play friendlies and pick FD form of a 'non legal' stage like momentoes only for them to complain. I have played at locals that had tried a five min rule set and it was alot no different, I would rarely see a time out at 5 mins let alone 7. I think time outs CAN BE HYPE given the situation.
@spade3047
10 ай бұрын
This video came out at a crazy coincidental time for me because I'm running my new local with a larger hazards on stage list and full DSR for more variance (and no PS2 so people can't go to it every game.) Smash has so many options and it's insane we just end up running the same ruleset at every event when there's so many great options honestly. I've been so much more excited to play ever since I started playing with moving platforms again.
@robinson32993
9 ай бұрын
It’s just the same people making it to the top over and over in every tournament that’s boring. No one new and exciting ever comes along or if they do it’s very rare.
@Waytothedawn63
10 ай бұрын
Smash ultimate has sucked since release. Masher game from inception because of how unpunishable most of anything relevant is from a defensive position. Projectiles more broken than ever because of the horrible shield changes. Outside of the most elite levels of play (and often even within it) the difference in player skill feels so small, artificially. The game is the definition of guessies. I played competitive since early Brawl, all the way through Smash 4. In S4 I've beaten a player in tournament we don't name anymore. Every other smash game, even 4, was just much more consistent. S4 had SOME inconsistencies, but it was almost purely Bayonetta or rage ladders/comeback related. It wasn't because everything turned in a giant guessing game. "Reads" used to feel more special and significant, whereas now they're almost the entire game. Nearly everything you're doing is just an attempt to read the opponent because you can't reactively punish blind aggression as consistently, and yes I say that from the perspective that not everyone is a pro, but we used to have 'simpler' answers for bad masher players to filter them out. Unspaced mashing on shield is often actually a positive because shield is garbage and most good characters are unpunishable without a parry, not that parry even gives you much. The other half of the game is just characters throwing out random combo starters (using aforementioned safety) that may or may not touch of death you. Smash Ultimate's neutral game is abysmal.
@JT-ds6wq
9 ай бұрын
finally someone said it, the game just blows in general its not just stages or Steve, also the laggiest smash game OFFLINE and all the removed techs such as perfect pivoting shield dropping bidou etc makes skill expression so much lower
@IyoMiyo
10 ай бұрын
you know, I always did know you commentated here and there (loosely knew) but after watching the worst video game songs I just really realized how much I enjoy the vibe you give off. the humor, the chat that plays along with roasting you, and just the overall thought and setup you put into things isn't overbearing and feels right. I don't really get entertained by people much, but ig that commentating really helped too, you speak very clearly even when dying of laughter
@iamflexo6546
9 ай бұрын
I feel like it's crazy to say smash 4 was filler but then talk about brawl rankings like they matter lol. I agree, smash 4 wasn't great but much better than brawl lol
@boomstickYT
9 ай бұрын
4 feels like it has less of a reason to exist compared to the other games. ultimate made it pretty obsolete, compared to brawl with its singleplayer content or even 64 with its balanced roster and high hitstun
@tymunster
10 ай бұрын
I was in drastic disagreement with "it's not a character issue" until you brought up Warioware I'm on board
@shadowsansvii8715
9 ай бұрын
I main Ganon so nothing scares me anymore. I’ve already accepted that I’ll never have the advantage.
@Tode_DT
10 ай бұрын
I agree with a lot of your points but I think you’re underestimating player pull, you can look at viewership data and see numbers LITERALLY QUADRUPLE when Mkleo, Kola, or Marss is on the screen
@ODISeth
10 ай бұрын
Honestly... Panda's death was by far the biggest part of why my love of competitive Smash dropped so drastically. Thankfully I'm getting more and more excited about LG as time goes on. I don't know if they'll be able to fill that vacant hole but, I really hope they do
@splaturials9156
10 ай бұрын
I watched every day of their videos but Smash isnt dying at all pepole said it for 5 years now its getting stupid
@ODISeth
10 ай бұрын
@@splaturials9156 I didn’t say Smash was dying, nor is that something I believe. Please read the comment you’re replying to before replying.
@chibilink73
9 ай бұрын
I can fill that vacant hole
@KeleuHerdley
9 ай бұрын
One thing I think we could use is a variety of tournament styles. The unique parts of the game are shafted off as “side events”, that being Doubles, Squad Strike, Items/Hazards on, illegal stages, FFAs, etc. We need tournaments that could mainly focus on different elements that make the game unique in order to encourage people to master all elements of the game. I’m so sick of seeing players that are really good at singles, but flop in every other mode. Singles can obviously be played as main events for the largest Super Majors and invitationals, but I think it would be incredible to see B or A tier events mainly focus on things such as squad strike in order to encourage character diversity. Because yeah, like you said: the current meta favors characters that are only good for the systems we’re using. I follow competitive Splatoon as well, and one thing that makes the game more interesting are the unique modes, and that different weapons thrive in each one. Most players will still stick close to their main weapons, but will play them differently to adjust to their corresponding modes. It allows you to think of new ways to view your characters and gain a newfound wisdom that can even be applied to the main mode. At my University, we had unique tournaments such as 8-player smash tournaments where the top half of the players would stay in the game, and last one standing would move up in bracket. All others would be sent to a 4 player FFA for elimination, where the games worked similarly to the 8-player games. Grand Finals would be a 4 player first-to-two. It was a blast to say the least, and it made me realize that no one will ever do that because we’re too damn conservative despite the complaining. And I’m no TO, nor do I have the desire to continue because the singles community genuinely disgusted me while I was still playing. TL;DR : We need to make our “side events” into main events that count towards PGR in order to encourage full mastery of the game. We also need more creative tournament ideas.
@tobin2.0
9 ай бұрын
I called it back in 2018 that this game would suck competitively
@underplayer420
10 ай бұрын
I will not watch the video and hear your points and simply say your wrong and move on.
@PorkShark
9 ай бұрын
Ultimate Sucks in 2023 cuz there aren't 1.) entertaining Smash creators, 2.) underdogs, 3.) tournaments with creative twists that change the game. It's been the same game for the last X years, and just like with every other game, is bound to fizzle out/sunset
@RocPile1
10 ай бұрын
I think a huge problem for viewership is that most of the old goats of the game just don’t perform as well as they used to. At this point It’s hard to root for someone who doesn’t play an extremely meta character because for them maintaining consistently is so hard. Also, Steve’s, kazuyas, sonics, make the game hard to watch from a competitive standpoint, especially when they are beating your favorite players. Just not the storyline most of us want.
@Josh-gx4yb
9 ай бұрын
Coaches/ Commentators can’t talk about the state of the game because they are not good enough. Like in a MOBA like league or a tactical fps like valorant or csgo; the general consensus is that when your are the highest rank of said game, then you can make an input. Which coney is not
@amazinc754
10 ай бұрын
Please do a tournament with these rules. We need it. This sounds so fun
@ElectrikStatik900
8 ай бұрын
It's because competitive players always stick to the same ruleset and battlefield stage layout. 3 stocks, no items, battlefield only. Experiment with the game, try new rulesets and shit. Make it fun again. Go nuts with items or turn on stage morphing or try out custom stages from the online content section. You could even try out Special Smash! You can do whatever you want! And this is true for all Smash games (maybe except Smash 64 but that's because that game is understandably limited compared to its successors). Each and every Smash game has so much customizability and flexibility: use that to your advantage. After all, Sakurai did say that these games are more like party games instead of fighting games. So go crazy!
@HeftyDan
10 ай бұрын
Smash Ultimate is the most milk toast competitive smash game imo. I love that Rainbow Cruise was legal in brawl. And Mute City in Melee is epic. And that's another great point. None of the top characters are broken, they just fit the meta the best rn. Why do we even hate sharking? Get good and start jumping
@FreddeGreddeMusic
10 ай бұрын
Smash Bros has a great mainstream spectatorship potential I think, BUT, hear me out: Best of ONE, just one frikkin' match per opponent, but play 5-6 stocks instead so there's room for adaptation and comebacks. I mean look at all anime shows, movies, series, you don't see the protagonists fight the same opponent again and again! One match is enough, and then you have a rivalry for the next time they meet. A weekend could even be a cup with one winner each day, for increased drama/storylining, with the sunday tournament being the important one, seeded by how the friday and saturday tournaments went. The players might not like it, but this set-up could make viewership ten times bigger.
@KubPlays
10 ай бұрын
when the pandemic hit that just killed almost all of my motivation to watch smash tourneys, i watch the occasional tourney/top 8 here and there but i havent been able to re-create that spark i had with playing & watching as the first year of ultimate fun times glad i was there when i was
@LordDTwigo
9 ай бұрын
I can tell you why I'm bored of ultimate. The exact reason you don't wanna use, the characters. Explicitly Sonic and Steve. Literally before the became relevant Smash Ultimate was still peaking. Once Acola and Sonix became relevant the viewer ship dropped. I've never skipped a grandfinals before. Now if I see one of them in it, I just fast forward through the video find a spot watch a little fast forward through some more. Thats only if they are fighting someone worth watching. I literally can't stand either one of them. The thing is, Coney knows this, absolutely. Yet like many other commentators and ultimate players they try ro avoid this topic because of the backlash from a vocal stupid minority. At the end you literally said, just pick sonic if you don't like it. Noone wants this shit to turn into the boring cringe fest of smash 4. But we have the most broken character in the game being played by a mid top player like Acola. Winning tournaments. It's become terrible because stupid TOs can't grow a pair and just ban a broken character and tell someone like Acola just to play a top character like Aegis or Kazuya since he can't do anything without an insane character to carry his ass.
@mrmunchin2578
8 ай бұрын
the stage banning process / counter picking would be so much more meaningful in a bigger stage list
@bert6236
10 ай бұрын
Great points, and I agree with everything. A new stagelist is what this game needs, and there's so much more to be explored besides.. the occasional Lylat
@AArchunBestGOD
9 ай бұрын
songs:Brawl Trophy Rush & Main Menu🎉
@GanjamanNL
9 ай бұрын
Been saying it for a while. The stage list feels like a boring samey mess, melee definitely has the more interesting stage list. As a TO, I've been wanting to run some new stages in my tournaments, but haven't tried it yet. Maybe it's time to finally put Wario Ware into the spotlight?
@minixlemonade2335
9 ай бұрын
Something he didn’t bring up really was half the reason the games take so long is because every player just camps the ever living hell out of you every game. The game super defensive a lot because in a game where you mash the A button and take 90% there’s just no reason to approach most of the time. It’s not even the characters, it’s the game itself. Aggression is just not as good as playing lame because shielding and grabbing is ass and good luck getting past Clouds wall of fun bair spam. The game is built to incentivize Sonic running the clock and Steve making walls, because first and foremost the game is built for 5 year old johnny who will drop this game and return to Fortnite because he can’t figure out how to recover. Sakurai wanted little Johnny to feel like he can win so he made movement and hitstun bad (thank you Brawl for introducing hitstun cancelling!) so he can mash the A button and do cool shit. However little did he know it didn’t make 4 player smash more fun it makes 1v1 worse. They have a different damage percents for 4 player smash so I don’t see why they don’t do the same for hitstun and other things. Ironic Sakurai hates combos so much when he keeps making characters like Smash 4 Bayo, Steve and Kazuya, you can’t do cool shit unless you pay money and the expense of your opponents enjoyment. It’s like his vision failed at the very thing it set out to do. No matter how hard you try to minimize the difference in skill between players the better player is going to win most of the time. I don’t know why he designed his game like this. When I played Melee as a child I picked Bowser and Kirby and spammed down b, or picked Mario and spammed specials. Naturally I got my butt kicked by my neighbor who try harded with his Sheik and completely obliterated me. Was I mad? Yes, but I wanted to get better and play like him, because it was so impressive to me. Competitive mechanics doesn’t make casual Melee worse, it makes the game itself better, and the “target audience” is largely unaffected. Or for people like me, it made me want to be that good.
@tobin2.0
9 ай бұрын
Fr, Sakurai is always trying to close the skill gap even though the vast majority of people aren't going to notice
@queenofthesalt5199
10 ай бұрын
I think there’s also something to be said for how interesting characters are on an individual level. Like, sure, there’s 100 characters, but because of how this is, at the end of the day, a party fighting game meant to the LCD gamer, it can be hard, as a viewer, to distinguish different players outside of sheer skill.
@AArchunBestGOD
10 ай бұрын
We All agree Smash 4 Is a pain not Only In The Ass In The Soul & It's Perfect yo Hate It.
@Metazoa54321
10 ай бұрын
yeah, that's pretty spot on. it's hard to even remember or think about one happened in a game when it's indistinguishable from the other games for being on the same stages with such drawn out matches. very curious, however, to compare it with the efforts of the new plat fighters coming out. NASB2 (and 1, for that matter) has a sidebar for a competitive stagelist. Rivals had stage counterpicks built into its ranked system, all built of very competitive-friendly stage layouts. crucially, the stages in both of these games have incredibly varied, if not always vibrant, backgrounds. much easier to distinguish.
@TheRealZura
10 ай бұрын
30 minute essay of good points but in the end it came back to the characters. Personally I watch less because of Sonic, Steve, G&W etc. There are also other points to consider: Drama within the community and Nintendo towards the community Viewers already know what to expect so they probably have better entertainment options About points 1 and 2, it could also be that the other games are new and the meta has not been set unlike Smash.
@ManuelPersona24
10 ай бұрын
Seeing Twitch chatters write "snooze fest" or "ZZZZZZZZZ" during a Sonix set is my daily medicine!
@underplayer420
10 ай бұрын
You have a different opinion than me therefore you are wrong.
@Eggss_B
10 ай бұрын
I feel so vindicated with this video. Seriously, tysm
@ReconissanceMa
9 ай бұрын
Melee had the best controls and most importantly had the most fun. Been like 2 decades and they've never made the franchise better than that.
@TheOnlyGokuMain
4 ай бұрын
Counterpoint- tap jump is MANDATORY in melee so every game past melee is better
@Imprez2564
10 ай бұрын
SHOUTOUT EDITOR FOR THE POKEMON MASTERS MUSIC
@darkwater124
9 ай бұрын
If Smash Ultimate had Rollback, I'd still be playing it every day.
@grantcroshaw5789
10 ай бұрын
What I don't understand is how CONEY's entire position around stage change in this video revolves around dealing with certain characters, and yet he says it's not the characters. 5-7 character bans in this game, even revolving ones, would change the meta a crazy amount and make the game 1000% more interesting to watch.
@Breeze926
10 ай бұрын
His point is that the current characters are a consequence of the stage list, which is the root problem.
@AArchunBestGOD
9 ай бұрын
Songs: Mario Party 10 Songs: Smash 4 Wii U Songs: Brawl Subspace
@mrmediocre848
10 ай бұрын
It would be hilarious were it not so depressing how the Smash community can't make up its mind whether to ban characters or not, no matter how powerful they are, yet they have consistently trended to make the stage list more and more bland over time. Can't figure out whether Steve is worth banning, but slants? Oh baby, get that out of my Smash Bros.
@Callie_with_a_bible
Ай бұрын
Depends on how steep the slant is, I've seen people live till 300% because of steep ass slants. Basically imgine if elevations could change on traditional fighing games, if you're on the "higher" elevation all fireballs/projectiles are going to miss, so you're basically forced to do the same crouching kick over and over again because if the character on the bottom slant approaches, then the top player will punish them by throwing them down the slant, if the character on the higher elevation approaches then anti-airs will just take care of that.
@noirlavender6409
9 ай бұрын
With sonic and steve in the game it's becoming more and more common to see grand finals with 40 minutes of length and you think "Oh, cool, it was a reset" but you get in to see and turns out there wasn't a reset it was a normal Bo5 but the sonic/steve player was being a toxic camping fk :l
@Eli_Becker
10 ай бұрын
What if we normalize squad strike 😂
@kkokay4
7 ай бұрын
All smash games regress into camp fiestas in the late stages. Its literally happened to them all. The only reasons melee is still alive is cuz of how hard the game is to master so there was soooo much more room to push things and be better than your opponent, without having to rely on camping. Also fox and falco are fun af. But even melee is getting campier and campier day by day. Ult is just a much more shallow game with more degenerate characters, so the boredom kicks in much sooner. Rules, stages, b05, have nearly nothing to do with it. Maybe you could implement a rule to deincentivise timeouts, but other than that, theres nothing you can do.
@Matanumi
8 ай бұрын
I believe the natural progression.... is to move to HDR. .... not even joking
@DannyCheezits
4 күн бұрын
Based
@SpaghettiJoBayBay
9 ай бұрын
Imo I feel like Ultimate got boring because there's really been no changes to the game or how we play it. Think about Smash 4 we had what at least 3 major updates that changed the game. They changed vectoring, shields changed, and some characters got buffs that really moved the tiers around. Ultimate has gotten no update that really shaked up the game. we added characters and some got minor buffs but never anything too ground breaking. Ultimate has been the same game since day one. I think adding more stages would spice up the game. A fighting game were picking a stage is more important than the characters you pick is crazy and yet the Ultimate has never really experimented with those stages. Hell I'm surprised that we haven't seen more 3v3 or even 4v4 and I don't wanna hear the excuse that those modes can't be played online. If you're already going to locals? You don't even need online. I feel the only people complaining are people who don't compete anyway. But what do I know? I'm a washed up Smash 4 players who's greatest achievements was getting 4th once at my local and not being last at a Xanadu the one time I went.
@Sairiui
10 ай бұрын
My 3 Reasons Why Smash Ultimate Sucks in 2023 1. No extra content. Hell, I replayed Smash Run on the 3DS version because it was the closest thing I could get to Kirby Air Ride and it was actually fun with friends. 2. Hype Train died with Etika. If you thought you brought more excitement than him, you're just wrong. Sit down. Didn't even ask. 3. It's just mid. "Balance" means everyone is mid and nobody is special anymore. I preferred the days when Pichu was OP and hoped they did more characters this way to have their own gimmicks, but no. Community whines loud enough and sucks the fun out of everything when they don't know shit.
@esrohm6460
10 ай бұрын
coney speaking the truth. smash players just have a giant ass stick going from bottom in all the way up to up top back out. i hate to say it but mele 1v1 me fox only no items final destination sucks. if you want to do that play street fighter. the entire pooint of platform gighters is that you have to platform while fighting yet all smash players want to do is to have as little platforming as possible
@Capin91
10 ай бұрын
‘Who the f are you [the viewer]?!’ is a valid question, but ‘Part of the income for the tourney’ is the answer
@NesDaKid
9 ай бұрын
Ultimate is boring to watch because it ruined the risk/reward balance that makes Melee exciting. Moves have too little risk, going off stage has too little risk, execution mistakes have to littlest risk. If you want an exciting spectator game, you need good risk/reward balance.
@Twisted_Logic
10 ай бұрын
My stage take is even more radical. Turn hazards on on some stages. Have two near-identical rulesets, one with hazards off, the other with hazards on, and then the players decide what stage to go to before selecting the game mode. There are several hazards on options that re interesting and balanced. (And yes, I think hazards off WarioWare should be legal)
@ulyx9804
9 ай бұрын
We need to mod the UI of the entire game. I think characters should be selected first before the stage. Stage hazards needs to be a toggle on stage selection.
@noirlavender6409
9 ай бұрын
If we reduce the timer it'll only incentive sonic and steve players to camp way more
@pudgemiester
9 ай бұрын
Notice how every game has been boring to watch since melee lmao. You can add as many cool characters as you want, the game is boring as shit
@skylandersfan6954
9 ай бұрын
Blud did not watch high level Brawl
@Kyro4Productions
10 ай бұрын
Ok I know it was just supposed to be a little throwaway joke at the end but for me the lack of quality commentary has been a big part of my waning interest in Ultimate these days. I can't remember the last time I bothered to watch an Ult tourney that wasn't being restreamed by Coney or Plup
@BearNecessityEntertainment
9 ай бұрын
Unpopular opinion: People are over it, because players are missing personality and we're no longer watching the best players, playing at their best. Sadly, the players that got banned, were the best of the best and they were fun to watch. Not saying they shouldn't have been banned. Just saying the current pros are boring.
@guayaba_salvaje
9 ай бұрын
Its cus netcode... Simple
@MichaelJones-wj4mo
10 ай бұрын
From a competitive standpoint, bo5 is understandably preferred as it gets you less uncertainty- better player is more likely to win the more games you play. But you already have a kind of safety net with double elimination. And while I think single elimination is a valid ruleset for a lot of games, double elimination is far too engrained in smash culture to ever see that changing. So I think he’s on the ball here. I think the same idea can be applied for the stage choices. Competitors will always try to snuff out variation. I think smash should have a seasonal map pool, and perhaps even ruleset. Some space for experimentation and refreshing the meta a little bit. That always gives room for new people to find footing in the meta too which helps to keep newcomers motivated and veterans on their toes
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