Hi Matt as allways really enjoyed your videos. As very exspirenced motorsport technician and studing degree engineer and 2cr owner found this series interesting and hypothesis ground in your test samples with sound scientific method. Unfortunately your success on KZitem has brought and audience what not understanding the way it was presented. And hope this content will continue. As someone who usually does not concern themselves with internet or warriors I hope this type of work you have put out there continues as it helps me see how to see through chaotic failures .
@somborn
4 жыл бұрын
Well done Matt. Big drama and outrage is what drives KZitem. Hopefully you will get the attention you deserve. Your channel should be way more popular.
@CharlieDeltaEchoVict
4 жыл бұрын
Great vid Matt. Your diagnosis was interesting and valid. I think we all understand the caveat that you don't have all the components or all the info to work with. Look forward to hearing more.
@linasbardauskas902
4 жыл бұрын
Hi Matt, first of all I would like to say a big thanks for your time and effort explaining to us about the R1 engine issues. I am one of 2019 Yamaha R1 owners and I am disappointed also. Long short story, I've bought brand new 2019 R1 in Australia. After a year I went to Ireland and after a couple of weeks my bike engine broke down. The bike still has a warrranty and I spoke about this problem with Yamaha Motor Australia. This is what they said: An Australian market Yamaha product unfortunately will not have any outstanding manufacturing warranty honoured, if it has been exported to another market other than its market of origin.
@skm9420
4 жыл бұрын
I think you did a fine job people are just dense and have selective hearing.
@TheKrygsman
4 жыл бұрын
SKM 94 so true people are barely paying attention.
@sk2283
4 жыл бұрын
I think you have put a really good informative argument - your analysis is good, your honest opinion
@thomasman359
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for putting more attention to this! I haven't seen any crank failures around the European circuits, but heard of a few though. I've seen several connecting rod failures, which is also worrying. #4 rod was cracked all the way through at the narrowest section and about to break in my 2CR engine, after just 3k miles. Completely stock bike, broken in according to manual, ridden on tracks only but never crashed. Luckily decided to have it checked after EDR started posting videos of crank failures. We were several owners talking to Yamaha at the time (at national and I think European level, not just a single dealership). They would only admit to the single valve springs being a potential problem on the 2CRs, nothing else. They did not offer me new connecting rods by the way. Wouldn't expect Yamaha to do anything about this, besides what can they do? They stopped production of these engines, and they're sold out everywhere due to high demand (?!?). You say that them adding the thrust washers is a smoking gun. EDR says it's simply a patch on the underlying problem of the crank moving. In that context it's interesting that the 2020 engine apparently has smaller oil drillings inside the crank.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"#4 rod was cracked all the way through at the narrowest section and about to break in my 2CR engine" - This maybe related - But I'm say MAYBE to be clear
@kevinfletcher7471
4 жыл бұрын
Thought you put your point across very well , and as you said it's creating interest and if ...if there is a problem that can only be a good thing.
@eforeman7499
4 жыл бұрын
Matt you did not need to post this video, your original post was so specific it was clear. You very carefully qualified everything you said, you could not have been clearer. People are going to" take a dive in the penalty area" as others have said they don't listen, or to be more specific they hear what they want to hear.
@THeslington
4 жыл бұрын
This reminds me of a story I heard about examining damage found on planes returning from WW2 missions. They were checking where bullet holes were found thinking these were the areas to reinforce. Oddly these planes didn't have holes in the engines... guess these areas don't need extra protection... right? Somebody get Matt a set failed engine cases! At least he is trying!
@mickducati1947
4 жыл бұрын
Hi m8 you have made this crank thing very interesting 👍😜
@rafaellastracom6411
4 жыл бұрын
Without having all of the variables in place to perform a detailed failure analysis it is only natural that there may be other issues to contend with. For instance, it may be a combination of fatigue and shock/vibration loading responsible for the failures. Nevertheless the fact that there is no means by which axial (thrust) position is controlled is a big no-no on such a high performance machine. Hell I recently rebuilt a Clio Williams engine that has thrust bearings. I still lean towards Yamaha screwing up on this detail. Their recent changes appear on the surface to be an attempt at saving face. It is a bit of a shame taking into consideration all of the good work they performed on balancing a cross-plane crank. Let´s keep our minds open but your find is significant, no doubt about that.
@paulince1715
4 жыл бұрын
Take a long hard look at the spindly balancer shaft . Its held at each end with the middle 200mm unsupported. I think it will whip and move the balancer weights away from the middle. Just another idea to consider if you havent already. Good luck with the quest.
@2391jessie
4 жыл бұрын
There is no direct combustion force(s) acting on the balancer shaft
@paulince1715
4 жыл бұрын
The point I was trying to make was that the balancer weight could move into the path of the crankshaft counter weight, because it was unsupported in the middle , spins fast and because its a balancer shaft it is poorly balanced end to end. There with be other factors too. Just as Matthew Hudson said. Crankshaft end float Warping of shaft and casings due to heat or torque or braking etc etc Even with no load on a shaft It can warp At high rpm.
@speedwaybren
4 жыл бұрын
Great vid mate love watching your stuff.
@squarepegroundhole8186
4 жыл бұрын
Failure analysis is a fun subject great videos the only time ive seen a broke crank is to much hp n over rev past crank ratings but my experiences is with car engines n small equipment it will b interesting to see what failure is keep up the hard work n dedication
@roarkshsha
4 жыл бұрын
Has anyone had this covered under warranty? If so, what was Yamaha's solution? If not, what was Yamaha's response? Matt, so far your explanation has been the one that gives the most detail in what might be happening inside this particular running engine. I wonder if a Yamaha dealership might be able to provide the two engines in question for you to measure the specs and inspect. I keep thinking there is something in the specs that is different. Yes, I did watch the video in the link.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
I'm working on it - I know that seems like a shit reply - but at the moment it's all I can do
@David_Walker16-3-51
4 жыл бұрын
Dealers have to worry about their franchise so they may not want to get involved. They generally wouldn’t have random engines hanging about to loan out either.
@fizzerpilot
4 жыл бұрын
I have watched all this with interest Matt, All the video,s, And it would seem your theory is somehow correct! there has to be a link in a collision between these two components! it would be interesting to see a test on Phils bench without the thrust washers/half moon bearings in place on the later casing just to see what would happen if someone forgot to put them in on a Friday afternoon for example, Keep up the good work Matt.
@danzrach1
4 жыл бұрын
Just a thought. If the balance throw hit the crank throw, wouldn't the balance throw break off before the crank pin snapped?
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
We'll get to that
@neilt1889
4 жыл бұрын
@@dirtygarageguy Does the Mt10 2016 share the same problem ?
@gregspinks8487
4 жыл бұрын
👊matt,brill videos no the R1 crank theory.great work dude from R1 Greg 👌👍
@S3Ben
4 жыл бұрын
If you and Phil could work together and share knowledge i think the end result would be the most comprehensive conclusion to what is causing the issue with the crank. My fingers are crossed but no bets made :)
@YAMR1M
4 жыл бұрын
I know Phil quite well and he has built a VERY powerful Yamaha R1 engine using one of my own cranks. What you have seen does seem like it is the reason of the failure but its figuring out what is making it flex enough to move that far... As I have said and you pointed out the 2mm gap is HUGE in engineering terms. But I know there have been issues that has seen massive failures with engines that really should not have happened. As I said when we met I would change the cross drilling with probably smaller cross drilled holes as the holes are quite large and the X runs quite close to the fillet radius. Its not 100% the cause of the problem but it is one area where the whipping and flex can be more pronounced on that one crank pin journal which will not help. Its going to be a combination of factors. The break is where the two cross drilled holes is where the hole is also at its largest cross sectional area I think and this would not help and I think smaller oil drillings would help add stiffness to the cranks. I do think the balance shaft is twatting the crank and you are correct..... Its just narrowing it down to what is causing the perfect storm. Looks like the bike that blew up was Sergejs's bike.
@zikrihafiz3443
4 жыл бұрын
Hey matt. Upon all the issues the crank, gearbox, starting problems (older R1) is that meaning that the Yamaha R1 in particular aren't reliabile? What is your opinion?
@ATOM314159
4 жыл бұрын
Maybe there's a harmonic issue that only occurs with excessive end float, and the harmonic causes the clearence between the balancer and crank to decrease and eventually contact. Perhaps the thrust washers are to stop the harmonic being induced in the first place or maybe they dampen the harmonic. It'll be interesting to see what the actual cause is if Yamaha ever get round to telling us.
@smallwheels
4 жыл бұрын
An excelent thread of videos, I bet Yamaha know why this is happening, faulty line boring maybe? I hope you explained to the car boys that if their engines didn't have thrust bearings on the crank, everytime you pushed the cluch in, you'd end up with the crank poking out the front/side. Are there any lateral loads on the crossplane?
@rackbites
4 жыл бұрын
By how much do the new thrust spacers reduce the play? Why were they added if everything was already deemed OK? Engineers don't usually change working systems unless ordered to by the accountants or seeking greater performance, which usually means removing weight. Is the shear line of the break always in the same place? If the break was due to the added oil galleries allowing torsional stresses to be the cause of failure wouldn't it shear at the weakest location ... where the gallery comes to the surface? The sheer line location looks to be at the location of the edge of the shell bearing suggesting it was the fulcrum and a hit or bending of the crank was the more likely culprit? Or I could be talkin out my arse ... most likely. Can you model the failure location on the computer? How much flex is required in the crack case before the crank snaps. Is that amount of flex possible? Nice series BTW.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"By how much do the new thrust spacers reduce the play?" - It's not about play.
@ticthedog9413
4 жыл бұрын
This failure analysis is great. Have you looked at the possibility of a batch of incorrectly manufactured cranks, maybe the thrust surfaces not machined to the correct specifications.
@mcrande
4 жыл бұрын
Since most of these are track day bikes would jamming the gears in higher RPM's make the crankshafts move more than street riders? Or does shifting gears even move the crankshafts at all.
@davidparker9676
4 жыл бұрын
Any Acceleration or Deceleration will add thrust load to the crankshaft in each respective direction. Jamming the gears will increase thrust due to the rapid change in RPM. It shouldn't make a dramatic difference in visible wear or measurable wear. Comparing a race engine with a street engine with equally high hours or miles, the race bike will always have more wear due to the higher sustained RPMs and heat.
@mcrande
4 жыл бұрын
@@davidparker9676 Thank you sir
@brianrhubbard
4 жыл бұрын
Been watching for years and you have no shame correcting yourself. In the task at hand, you were on to the shim eliminating end play or alignment and that was close enough for most people. At first, my opinion was thermal expansion between the two features causing the two counter weights to collide. My interest is: can you do a short or long video explaining how to machine and fixture the crank to accommodate the shim. Thanks
@jediknight1294
4 жыл бұрын
You wrote for your audience and the video then moved outside of the intended audience. Hitting owners groups and forums vs people with an engineering interest. Which is always a problem. Fair play to you for acknowledgement of that and the fact that this would change your tone if you were doing this sort of thing again.
@davidg1067
3 жыл бұрын
Great video series, mate. In your Video “Yamaha r1 crank snap -solved?” at 12:45 you claim this was an overload or ultimate failure. The beginning of this video finally shows the fracture surface and it looks clearly to be fatigue failure. Crack looks like it initiated around 2:00 or 3:00 and propagated about half way through the pin before rupturing. I think you are on to something about end float but it is possible that much of the damage is secondary or post. Contact between the balancer and crank could have loaded the fillet in bending over many cycles, eventually leading to failure.
@brotherpong8494
4 жыл бұрын
i reckon the thrust bearings just allow easy inspection and replacement if significant wear is seen. better be sure you catch em before the shafts bump uglies tho. yamahaha also updated the crankshaft as well as the crankcases. the revised crank is -10 and the original is -00. no idea what the differences are...
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"i reckon the thrust bearings just allow easy inspection and replacement if significant wear is seen. better be sure you catch em before the shafts bump uglies tho." - but they've never done this before - just like the ZX7 - after 80k miles there's practically no wear...
@brotherpong8494
4 жыл бұрын
@@dirtygarageguy these yammie fracture split crankshafts are a bitch innit?
@Prodigy2Fast4U
4 жыл бұрын
Maybe all the failed track bikes got rid of the “bad “2009-2014 R1 slipper clutch hence more stress due to non slipper ? Think you have the reason but maybe not all the causes as you don’t have the whole bike to check. It’s just another idea not saying it’s the cause. Good analysis on the engine. 👍 Any stats on stock bike failures?
@TheJmebe
4 жыл бұрын
Good stuff. Watched Phill's video too, which did make me question if the balancer shaft marks happened before or after the fracture. Working on the theory that the fracture occurred, and then the balancer shaft came into contact, makes me think that the thrust washer was added to protect wear to the casing - theory here is that once it wears sufficiently, it allows the far RHS end of the crank to begin bashing into the casing which induces the fracture - this happens over time, rather than once massive impact. I'm tired and know I've used some of the wrong terminology and can't stay awake long enough to rewatch the video, which is quite verbose (even the Mrs looked up after 20mins, saying, 'I get it, I get it... something broke in the R1 engine, Yamaha have brought out a new bit, but won't explain what is going on...')
@chadwoodhouse2924
4 жыл бұрын
Please forgive the bad predictive text spelling, I should have proof read it....in a hurry 😆😆
@YAMR1M
4 жыл бұрын
Just a thought..... The crank that has been twatted send it to Arrow Engineering in Hinckley to just run it up on their crank balancer to see how far out it is... You would be surprised how bad some cranks can be when they dynamically balance a crank. It will not be why is happened but it may be another factor to add to why is happened.
@georgestewart1325
4 жыл бұрын
Love this stuff.
@chadwoodhouse2924
4 жыл бұрын
I do find this really interesting, I have also noticed the 2020 R1 takes an extra litre of oil, 2015-2019 3.9 litres or 4.1 with filter. 2020 R1 4.9 litres and I think 5.1 litres with filter, Yamaha did this when they raced the 2015-2019 in endurance racing and normal Superbike racing, could there be a correlation with he heist washers and changes due to oil pressure having an effect on engines at high rpm or with raised rpm due to reflashes. It might be another avenue to look from, other 1000 cc four cylinders have not added an extra litre of oil to the design on a slight engine revision, please anyone add to this as to possibilities. I own a 2015 R1 and am interested and it is running very well, he German magazine Motorrad did the 50,000 km test and it came out well when they did the whine tear down. In Australia and NZ hey have not had one crank break yet so that’s interesting. Keep up the great work I appreciate he time you put in to these videos. Kind regards
@davidparker9676
4 жыл бұрын
If I had an R1 I would radius the two leading edges of the crank and balance shaft for cheap insurance and piece of mind. If they did interfere, they would glance off each other and make noise rather than snap the end of the crank. I always knew there was a good reason why I never owned any Yamaha bikes. Honda has served me well. The Suzuki and Kawasaki bikes I owned didn't win me over and were resold to buy the Honda I wanted. I still love my old CBR.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
They all have their own issues...
@presstodelete1165
4 жыл бұрын
There is a theory that expensive lawyers sending threatening letters is cheaper than non disclusure contract payments, let alone the costs of owning up.
@brentsmith5647
Жыл бұрын
Brilliant video thank u ♥️👀👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
@crunchytheclown9694
4 жыл бұрын
Hi is it possible these were remanufactured motors with people using mixed parts not realising potential problems ?
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
As far as I know they are not - several engines have been confirmed to be stock
@MrFigFisher
4 жыл бұрын
Well, I suppose the next thing would be to look at some crankcases on an engine that has failed to see if there has been excessive wear on the thrust surfaces causing the increase in end play. This might be why they changed the design to replaceable thrust plates to facilitate improved bearing material. If this is not the case then I think this theory is well and truly out of the window and all the damage must be post surely???
@David_Walker16-3-51
4 жыл бұрын
I don’t think you have much to apologise for, the vested interests will jump up and down a bit but at the end of the day, there is a problem. If they can show that you are wrong, then do so. As you point out, Yamaha didn’t introduce those thrust washers for shits and giggles (love that expression, and will use it whenever possible).
@funcounting
4 жыл бұрын
Maybe at high load and rpm the crankshaft starts flexing so much in the casing so that the crank web deflects enough to bridge the gap and strike the balancer shaft's web?
@davidhowes7
4 жыл бұрын
All those broken cranks were on track day and racing bikes. So the engines have had a real working over for a start.
@davidhowes7
4 жыл бұрын
I am thinking because these bikes are leaned over so far going around corners on tracks that may play a part. 2.7mil has to be worn off side of crank case bearing journals before balance shaft could make contact that's a lot. And you wonder weather engines were checked for wear after every track day.
@raynic1173
4 жыл бұрын
One thing about Phils video, he says he has an older casing and a newer casing with the separate thrust washers. BUT it he doesn't say the years of the casings or the cranks Model numbers.... from what I understand the casings were changed in 2015 along with the crank drilling design and again in 2016 to except the steel thrust washer. So imho, he really doesn't address the whole issue. For full understanding we need at least the 2015 and 2016 model casings and it would help the conversation if we had the '09-'14 casings for comparison. Is the left hand casing (the older one) in the video a 2015 or is it an earlier one???
@UnCivilEngineerIRL
4 жыл бұрын
Matt, on the subject of measuring valve clearance; measuring with lobes perpendicular to the face of the bucket and 45* either side of that gives different results. Does it really matter and why ? I measured with the cam lobe facing directly away from the buckets on each cylinder (as recommended by a friend that is a mechanic) and have subsequently gotten a workshop manual (proper Honda one so I will have correct torque spec etc) which says to measure when the lobe is at an angle. It seems strange to me that Honda would want it measured at a specific angle for each cylinder, whereas I have a Suzuki manual that tells you to measure multiple cylinders when the timing marks face in, and the remaining valves when the marks face out. Should I go back and do it again or am I worrying about nothing ?
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
" which says to measure when the lobe is at an angle." - @ what angle? The ramps on cams are usually not the same - so there is/can be a difference between the ramp up and ramp down of a cam - this is why I alwasy do the clearance with the cam facing away from the bucket
@UnCivilEngineerIRL
4 жыл бұрын
@@dirtygarageguy I just measured it on the exhaust side and it is 60* from parallel with the head; 110* would be the position if the lobe was perpendicular with the face of the bucket. Pictures would help ?
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
Picture would help
@UnCivilEngineerIRL
4 жыл бұрын
@@dirtygarageguy (in a thick Glaswegian accent) where do yee want it big boy?
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
matthew-hudson@outlook.com
@Chillertek
4 жыл бұрын
4486 pissed off R1 owners. Great job Yamaha. 4486 customers about to walk out the door to other brands. That's what I'll be doing.
@chadwoodhouse2924
4 жыл бұрын
I was also told that the reason the washers were added was due to the difficulty starting and the washers reduce stiction, that was from Yamaha Australia
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
Lol the stiction. That's a good one.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
Never heard anyone complain about hard to start? And that would have to be some massive friction...
@chadwoodhouse2924
4 жыл бұрын
There are few people that complained about them struggling to turn over, but that’s more to do with the smaller battery and cold weather. As you well know most service centres and importers come up with all sorts of ideas to hopefully stop people asking more. On a side note have a look at a lot of EDR,s cranks that went bang, they were mostly on built motors with different Conrods and probably higher rpm flashed engines, so it definitely seems to be on modified engines. I talked with Yamaha racing Australia and they use factory race ecu’s to modify their bikes instead of reflashing, also apparently the winning Yamaha teams in America didn’t have to many issues either, it see,s to be more of a tuning thing. Mine was tuned by Phill Taiton racing in Victoria, he would be good resource of you want another opinion, he has built world Superbikes with Suzuki etc the guy is true legend. Also at Phillip Island MotoGP track no cranks have broken, only valves have let go on one or two engines, Phillip Island circuit is a very high speed circuit and it’s easy to hit 300 down the straight and use a lot of high rpm and stress on the engines. There are so many R1’s used for club racing and track days so it is interesting. Regards
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
From what I've gathered so far the issue seems to be a possible machining error on the bottom cases. So it could have been one batch. But I'm still collecting information.
@David_Walker16-3-51
4 жыл бұрын
OK, been and had a look at Seton Tuning vid, he talks a good talk. My impression is that you have found or at least seen images of witness marks on the cranks that you have or that EDR have posted. If there is a yard and a half of blue sky between faces, does Seton Tuning offer an opinion on on this. I am a bit of a dinosaur where Facebook is concerned, or I’d ask him myself.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"does Seton Tuning offer an opinion on on this" - no
@trentmarlowe7655
4 жыл бұрын
My original comment still stands. Fuck! I reckon you nailed it.
@ironmecanic
4 жыл бұрын
it is work hardened and the oil hole is the problem is clearly visible at the break point where it has broken it is broken from the inside of the oil hole
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"it is work hardened" - What is? "and the oil hole is the problem is clearly visible at the break point where it has broken it is broken from the inside of the oil hole" - and what broke it? Magic?
@killer009009
4 жыл бұрын
could you turn a worn engine over by hand whilst applying lots of pressure on one side and see if it binds up you would know u have problems if it does ,i thought u was on the money with your analysis
@Rickd-jh7iw
4 жыл бұрын
Didn't the whole "Crossplane" crank idea need a lot of testing to get the cranks to live at the MotoGP level? Could it not be just a resonant vibration combined with cheaper steel (relative to a Motogp crank) causing the failures?
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
Where do you get the 'cheaper' steel from? And the motoGP crank is nothing like the road going version
@Rickd-jh7iw
4 жыл бұрын
@@dirtygarageguy Well I don't think there is any arguing that Yamaha is not using the same steel in the production R1 crank that they are using in their MotoGP engine. And, I agree that no doubt the cranks look different. My point was that from what I remember at the time they spend a lot of development effort to eliminate crank failures when introducing the CrossPlane crank at the Motogp level. The "problem" is not going to go away just because the street engine is revving to 15K instead of 18K, and maybe they just erred a bit to much toward the economy side of the equation when building the production crank.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"Well I don't think there is any arguing that Yamaha is not using the same steel in the production R1 crank that they are using in their MotoGP engine." - Why? There are only so many grades of steel and the steel isn't the most expensive part - actually the steel will be the cheapest cost of the whole crank.
@peromo9397
4 жыл бұрын
Nice one Matt. Mr Seton kinda presented something that is intriguing. It contradicts your theory 'prima facie'. If you two can work this one out together, I want to know which one of you is either Sherlock or Watson !? :) Lol
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"It contradicts your theory" - how does it contradict my theory? It doesn't he was showing what the engine and the end float is like with the example he has. This doesn't account for wear or parts out of spec.
@tommydillon4931
4 жыл бұрын
Yamaha should be apologizing not you . I bought a low mile bike last year it's a 2014 . Guaranteed there will be alot more of these go bang . Wonder how many they sold .
@robertsimpson1824
4 жыл бұрын
Could the higher rpm and stresses or resonance deform parts more
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
What does resonance mean? Do you know?
@robertsimpson1824
4 жыл бұрын
Thinking along the lines bridge that collapsed when the wind made it resonate at the frequency of the bridge and it collapsed. But probably talking bollocks but eager to learn
@chrishartley1210
4 жыл бұрын
It would be interesting to compare the radius at the sides of the main bearings between a broken shaft and a new one. Similarly with the main bearings to see if there's any chamfering at the edges. I know the bearings are supposed to be sub-surface but you never know. Put together those 2 things could contribute to excess end float.
@westers1514
4 жыл бұрын
Phil Seton, not Senton - just saying 😁😋 Still a damn good series of videos; hope you'll do more along these lines in the future as it is really interesting to see how you do the investigation work, and then come up with a conclusion. Kind of reminds me of those Aircrash Investigation type programmes. Edit: Just watched Phil's video - fairly conclusive that the end float for both crank and balancer shaft isn't enough to cause them collide, but clearly something is causing them to collide. Will be interesting to see what further analysis will throw up
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"Edit: Just watched Phil's video - fairly conclusive that the end float for both crank and balancer shaft isn't enough to cause them collide, but clearly something is causing them to collide." - this is a wear issue...
@westers1514
4 жыл бұрын
@@dirtygarageguy Caveat: What I know about engineering and engines isn't worth knowing, but I've read a few article, so that makes me dangerous enough to post the following 😁 Is it possible that the 2CR thrust bearing surface isn't hard enough, causing them to wear excessively (not by 2mm, but enough to make the end float of the crank even worse). That excessive float then somehow caused the bearing to spin (as per the crankcase evidence you pointed to in the EDR video), which either caused the crank to snap due to the increased torque applied by the spun bearing, or somehow caused it collide with the balancer shaft, which caused it to break? It is strange that Yamaha changed the thrust bearing surface to the steel insert - a conspiracy theory would suggest that they knew the 2CR thrust bearing surface was weak, and thus put the harder steel insert into later engines to fix that. Feel free to deride my comments, although note I'm asking a question, and not stating any of the above as fact 😁😁
@gregtaylor6146
4 жыл бұрын
Personally, I think your original analysis is correct and can't help feeling that in the light of 'that' video, Yamaha UK are leaning on you threatening legal action etc, resulting in these 'update' videos. As you say, people will make up their own minds, for me Yamaha are very much OFF my shopping list!!
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
"that in the light of 'that' video, Yamaha UK are leaning on you threatening legal action etc, " - Say what? LOL legal action for what? I can say what the fuck I want about Yamaha, Like fuck yamaha. I was making it clear that it's just a theory until I can narrow down and prove what the cause is - this is just good engineering
@gmc3578
4 жыл бұрын
I'm hoping it's not the cross-plane big bang firing order is to blame! I really like the sound of the engine! And I'd like to think of it as the poor man's V4!
@Desertduleler_88
4 жыл бұрын
End float issues, I'm surprised the manufacturer allowed this shoddy workmanship to happen.
@gmc3578
4 жыл бұрын
might also be weak cases or weak crankshafts...
@Desertduleler_88
4 жыл бұрын
@@gmc3578 No, it's the end float that is causing contact with the crank and balancer shaft weights.
@kssk9591
4 жыл бұрын
Haha .. I see that you got scared ... I hope you won't be hit by any VR46 fan .. R1 owners are a sect :) ... But seriously: great work !!
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
LOL scared - It's their engines
@beachboardfan9544
4 жыл бұрын
The 2.5mm end play made me think theres a missing thrust bearing in your setup... Your PSA is better than not knowing, regardless of what ppl's reactions are.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
What set-up???
@beachboardfan9544
4 жыл бұрын
Your crank and case...
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
The plastic one?
@beachboardfan9544
4 жыл бұрын
The v block?
@willyck948
4 жыл бұрын
So you saying, you never meant to scare anyone when you said "big bang R1" or "if I had an R1 I'd be scared 💩less" I thought it was hilarious. To be honest its amazing engine last as long as they do after all the billions of revolutions. At least people won't be surprised if one does pop and will have some cash or parts set aside just incase
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
Big bang is the firing order... "if I had an R1 I'd be scared 💩less" - That is an opinion - and still true.
@Marr_SC
4 жыл бұрын
I still wonder why the crank itself has the proper machining to accommodate the thrust washers, but the case doesn't. Either someone fucked up and forgot to machine the cases in the drawings, or they started by planning to add thrust washers and then changed their minds.
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
No. The thrust surface and the surface on the brace in the cases is like the ZX7 - and this has been the standard way to do it for many years.
@jeffdown9259
4 жыл бұрын
Stop Matt! You apologized enough. Those of you cream puffs that didn’t hear the disclaimer, welcome to the real world. Yeah, that test equipment or classes or manuals you need got diverted to the branch manager’s bonus. Sometimes all you can do is your best.
@nunyabidness9257
4 жыл бұрын
IMO, the side load is coming from oil pressure used to feed the con rods from the end of the crank shaft. That's why it only happens on high RPM motors because the average pressure is higher than most street engines. Yamaha is hoping the problem will go away, they have already lost any profit they ever hoped to make on these when they recalled all 2015 and half of 2016's to replace the transmissions. That was a complete teardown done at the dealer level, and people like me had two other recalls for the R1M's datalogger draining the battery and for the recall on the Ohlins rear shock. Mine spent over 4 months of the first year in the shop and Yamaha screwed me hard when the clutch didn't work-they made me pay despite their fucking datalogger showing the problem came after the trans was replaced. I was lied to from day one by customer service and I never once got an impression they were willing to fix their problems. I have until June for one more thing to go wrong and still sue per my lawyer-we have very poor consumer protection laws in Michigan, I"m hoping to fix that too. I hope someone takes this on as a class action suit and breaks it off in their ass, they deserve it
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
IMO, the side load is coming from oil pressure used to feed the con rods from the end of the crank shaft. That's why it only happens on high RPM motors because the average pressure is higher than most street engines." 1) the pressure increase isn't that high - not to move a 7.8kg crank 2) pressure is equal in all directions. So any force applied x+ is equal to any pressure in the x-
@nunyabidness9257
4 жыл бұрын
I’m talking about the side load imparted on the crank when the oil is fed thru the end, not the pressure at the bearing and rod journals...
@dirtygarageguy
4 жыл бұрын
That still doesn't matter - the pressure of the oil leaving at the other end would be considered thrust
@ghollidge
4 жыл бұрын
I'll stick to my 60k Falco lol
@carlosandleon
4 жыл бұрын
1!
@VicReeves
4 жыл бұрын
This is the same Phil Seton who said high velocity porting can cause a sonic boom inside the engine. Go to 3:30 on this video: kzitem.info/news/bejne/uqmiuGmgopSAZn4
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