Small notable correction. A permanent does not have a creature type if it is not a creature. It can't simultaneously be an Elemental and not be a creature (or tribal/kindred).
@Quroe_
29 күн бұрын
Disclaimer: The following ruling is now suspect. It may not be correct. I will confirm if it is when I have confirmation. This becomes notable if you try to make a Skysovereign, Consul Flagship into an indestructible God over 2 separate turns with Tyrite Sanctum. Long story short, when you try to crew the vehicle again, it will not be a God (because of layers and timestamps), so you can't use Tyrite Sactum to put an indestructible counter on it.
@laynegrey2003
29 күн бұрын
@@Quroe_how would it work if you have a Maskwood Nexus, then crew it? Would it be all creatures types or no?
@Quroe_
29 күн бұрын
@@laynegrey2003 Excellent question! Both crewing and Maskwood operate in layer 4, the type changing layer. The useful rule in question here is this one: "613.8a: An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, *what it applies to,* or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect." Since crewing the Skysovereign adds a new creature to your set of creatures, this changes what Maskwood applies to. *Maskwood is dependant on the crewing effect.* This forces the crew to apply first, then Maskwood can change Skysovereign to all creature types, including God.
@Quroe_
29 күн бұрын
@@laynegrey2003 Oh, also this rule is in play: "613.8b: An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order."
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Thanks for that! I've pinned your comment :)
@TheLuckySpades
29 күн бұрын
I wrote up a whole thing about how you are missing a bunch of gods and Klothys specifically all whild forgetting that we are interested in cmcm>=4 ones, oops
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
😉
@SwedeRacerDC
28 күн бұрын
Klothys, God of the Not Trash that Bello Can Animate. I was thinking about Klothys myself for a minute and remembered the greater than 4 CMC.
@paulbuckley2301
27 күн бұрын
Maaany Magic The Gathering players thought the same thing.
@nils3939
26 күн бұрын
was gonna say the same thing, Klothys is one of my favorite gods of the bunch, and was wondering "where's Klothys?" then saw she had 3 CMC.
@vibid3
28 күн бұрын
It's interesting to note that basically every god this could apply to will have their P/T reduced by the ability. It does add the draw ability as well as haste which are easily good trade offs to make, but it's not simply an across-the-board buff. To me, this makes the interaction and the decision when/if you want both a god and Bello (as your commander) out on the field a much more interesting one.
@Psychonautical89
29 күн бұрын
"You are technically correct; the best KIND of correct."
@laynegrey2003
29 күн бұрын
This was such a good explanation i actually understand how layers work now, you literally just performed a miracle. 😂
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Layers just have a bad reputation, once you break them down, they're easy to understand :)
@Bathios13579
27 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboardI say the same thing to my okay group, but they don't believe me lol
@SwedeRacerDC
28 күн бұрын
They should put out a Secret Layers Secret Lair which includes one iconic card from each layer. Sure it's a little deeper, but that would actually be helpful to people trying to learn the game
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
Ooh. Here's my attempt. Each one has effects on precisely one layer. 1. Clone 2. Control Magic 3. Volrath's Shapeshifter 4. Blood Moon 5. Painter's Servant 6. Dress Down 7. Tarmogoyf
@Red-Tower
26 күн бұрын
@@seandun7083 I appreciate the "only one layer" aspect, but I think humility + magus of the moon is too iconic not to have as part of it.
@SwedeRacerDC
26 күн бұрын
@@Red-Tower yeah, I always love these weird interactions that show why layers are necessary
@SwedeRacerDC
26 күн бұрын
@@seandun7083 Definitely some iconic cards here. We know Wizards is greedy so they would just make this into two separate bundles so you have to spend $80 to get a whole foil set. 🤢
@seandun7083
26 күн бұрын
@@Red-Tower fair.
@thomasbasten2296
29 күн бұрын
Ok... After i've been around here at the channel for quite some time this needs to be said: Not only that your content is very informativ I highly appreciate the way you are presenting it. Everything fits so well together the cardboardlike background choosing of colours for x-ing something out highlights with zoom effects. I really enjoy watching the stuff you make! Thanks for that greeting to downunder from germany and keep up the amazing work 😊
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment. I really appreciate this. I want to try and make these videos as engaging as possible, whilst still presenting the information correctly and clearly. Magic shouldnt be a game where you need a law degree to play it 😂 I hope you'll enjoy the future videos too 😊
@Rockjay288
29 күн бұрын
So if bello is played after, then it's timestamp will always be the final one. Thanks, this was super helpful!
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
@@illidan430This is not correct. Layers are applied in Timestamp order. Bello doesn't get a new timestamp because their ability "isn't active" and then "becomes active". There's a list of explicit ways to get a new timestamp. For Bello it would be changing zones or getting turned facedown/up. Rule 613.7. if you're interested.
@illidan430
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard if i understood well , the reason why bello still first is because it ability stay there all turn but just apply on your turn so is the same continuous effect from the first turn he come on play but just apply on your turn . Dont worry i already had read all the 611 et 613 section before commenting but i can't find anywhere confirmation of during your turn was a continuous effect and not a rewrite job of magic for at the beginning of your turn, like the "enter" rather ETB. A new player can miss understood enter with all zone(graveyard,field) XD is no more read the card explain the card loll. I always like to argue to keep me updated and on point when i play with my group. I always put my self in question to be better :p
@TheLuckySpades
29 күн бұрын
Your "threat" at the end got me thinking, do the eldrazi titans count enough as "people" that they would get their universe mandated fursonas if they showed up in Bloomsburrow?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
The Eldrazi dont planeswalk or use the Omenpaths, they kinda just "walk" between the planes, so they might be immune to it. They're also, as Ugin mentioned, older than time itself.
@sallomon2357
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard to be exact, the Eldrazi don't really go to any plane, they just manifest a part of themselves there. Planeswalkers and Omenpath travellers move from one plane to the other THROUGH the Blind Eternities, the Eldrazi "move" FROM Blind Eternities to any given plane. Dunno how all that works with Emrakul being trapped in the moon though :|
@bestaround3323
29 күн бұрын
@@sallomon2357didn't Emrakul go into the moon willingly?
@cruye9633
28 күн бұрын
What if they turn into things that an animal might perceive as an eldritch horror - such as a vacuum cleaner or a ford f150
@comlitbeta7532
28 күн бұрын
@@bestaround3323yes they are, they will supposedly come out "when the plane is ready for them" to consume it, presumably.
@SpaceBeleren
28 күн бұрын
This is the first layers explanation I could fully follow
@BRBMTG
28 күн бұрын
I watched this without ad block. You're welcome.
@ryanparker2696
29 күн бұрын
I paused the video to guess, and of course I got it wrong. Super informative!
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Hope it cleared things up for you 😀
@hashswap
29 күн бұрын
Oh wow.... some of the popular youtube channels had the timestamp thing all wrong. I remember one was saying that if Bello comes in first, the enchantment being a creature thing supercedes all of the gods'type changing ability with devotion
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
When you break everything down into step by step parts, it all becomes really clear :)
@camfunme
29 күн бұрын
Slight nuance at 3:57, removing the creature type also removes the Elemental and God subtypes (which I feel could have been in the video/edit), as they are creature subtypes.
@laynegrey2003
29 күн бұрын
I had to check the rulings since it specifies the type, not other subtypes, but that is actually true!
@greyborg3846
29 күн бұрын
Not arguing, but just genuinely curious. Why would it remove the creature type just because they are not creatures when there are things like Tribal Sorcery - Goblin? Or is the fact that it is not just a sorcery, but a TRIBAL Sorcery, what allows a creature type to stick to it?
@camfunme
29 күн бұрын
@@greyborg3846 Correct Tribal is just a type for adding creature types. Rule 205.3m "Creatures and tribals share their lists of subtypes; these subtypes are called creature types..." (then it lists them)
@greyborg3846
29 күн бұрын
@@camfunme Interesting. Thank you.
@BuddyIsGarbage
29 күн бұрын
Thanks Attack, I needed this last week.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
😅
@iGOTurRIFLE
27 күн бұрын
I appreciate the video for trying explain in further detail on how Bello’s effect interacts with the Gods. I have a feeling other people may have already covered this but i would be interested in a video about Zinnia’s effect with offspring mixed with copying and or cost reduction would work. I think i understand most of it from my own research but a more professionalized video i think would help the masses understand how strong or meh this commander really is.
@MrPomwarlock
27 күн бұрын
Awesome video! Super helpful and easy to understand
@attackoncardboard
27 күн бұрын
☺️ Excellent to hear! If you've got any questions, I read every comment 🙂
@mistamemewide
28 күн бұрын
Local Raccoon becomes the gods of the gods.
@GetCommanded
29 күн бұрын
Genuinely obsessed with this stuff! Thanks for helping me study for judge things! -James
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
😊 Glad you're enjoying it! I feel like Bloomburrow didn't have too many rules interactions I could do a deep dive on, hence all the shorts, but I'm very much hoping Duskmourn will be a different story! 😁
@scheikundeiscool4086
29 күн бұрын
The thing this video teaches me. Is do not play the gods in a bello dack. Cause it will make them worse.
@PirateMaster45
29 күн бұрын
I think it just depends when you play them & if you have their Devotion online
@ty_sylicus
29 күн бұрын
Yeah but, I feel Nylea granting trample is well worth it.
@doim1676
29 күн бұрын
It's more of a trade off. They lose some power and toughness, but get hast and draw you a card on contact. And since they keep their other abilities i dont think they are significantly worse. Plus, if you have the devotion their stats as blockers are the same as usual, since it's not your turn anymore
@Roguebutler47
28 күн бұрын
Xenagod still synergizes well still. Stompy big big.
@SteamClockWork
28 күн бұрын
The commander will not be on board 100% of the time. Also, it deters removal to have reverse lieutenant style cards. If something gets better when your commander dies, they are less likely to remove your commander.
@mssj4gokou
27 күн бұрын
I would love a print out tree version of the conditions of this. Would be great to provide to the player in my group who has this deck.
@riehl8893
29 күн бұрын
What happens if they enter the battlefield at the same time? Like a Eerie Ultimatum or Ghostly Flicker effect
@hitlerdiditforaklondikebar
29 күн бұрын
Scoop
@Ecrowtist
29 күн бұрын
If they enter simultaneously, you get to choose which one you want to have an earlier timestamp (see CR 613.7m)
@ty_sylicus
29 күн бұрын
That's what I was thinking.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
What Ecrowtist said. Here's the rule for clarity. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@CatManThree
22 күн бұрын
I think a good frame of reference is comparing it to the same ruling involving having both a card that sets hand size in play and a card that removing hand size in play. If the no max handsize entered play first, former applies. If it entered second the you have no max handsize. (Edit: some grammar)
@attackoncardboard
22 күн бұрын
That's not correct. Cards that say "you have no maximum hand size" trumps cards that say "your maximum hand size is X". These sorts of cards don't use timestamps.
@CatManThree
22 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard Yeah accidentally typoed and when I went to edit for some reason youtube would never update.
@omarvallejo8585
29 күн бұрын
fantastic video!
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Thanks for taking the time to comment 😊
@therealmerf
29 күн бұрын
I'm sorry too complicated, basically I understood don't play Theros gods with Bello.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
What didn't you understand? Perhaps I can explain it in a different way for you.
@CajunCatguy
29 күн бұрын
You did fine. It's more that the pt is nerfed regardless it seems. Would be hilarious to land him in a 4color so I could pair him with Enchanted Evening.
@SwedeRacerDC
28 күн бұрын
It's interesting that Bello actually weakens the Gods. Also Darksteel Colossus would be very sad in this deck
@mariahanover9335
14 күн бұрын
You missed the fifth situation where they enter simultaneously off an effect like Genesis Wave. I believe in that situation the affected player chooses which order the fourth layer effects occur.
@attackoncardboard
14 күн бұрын
If permanents enter at the same time, their controllers choose the timestamp order. This is done in APNAP order around the table.
@PM-xc8oo
29 күн бұрын
This would be a lot more useful with a chart of the 4 scenarios and then what exactly you ended up with on your turn. Yes, knowing the methodology is good but I can already see eyes glazing over trying to explain this to three other people vs "here look at this handy visual aid".
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Fair enough. I didn't have that idea at the time. I'll whip something up :)
@michaelturner2806
29 күн бұрын
Sounds like Bello is on track to have a lot of judge calls.
@jsoholt11
25 күн бұрын
Lets break this down *starts dancing*
@fencingfireferret1188
29 күн бұрын
I love this lil raccoon fella
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
He's just a lil guy
@Sagaratnl
28 күн бұрын
Wat an interesting ru.... WAIT IS THAT A HEDRON!?
@alexandreviana4461
29 күн бұрын
I love your videos!
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
😊 Thanks for taking the time to comment and let me know 😀 Hope you enjoy all the upcoming content :)
@hexbox2182
26 күн бұрын
There’s one more god that could work for this: klothys, god of destiny.
@attackoncardboard
26 күн бұрын
Oh? How much mana do they cost?
@hexbox2182
26 күн бұрын
Ah. Forgot that part
@petermolnar6382
29 күн бұрын
Bello's ability would work so much better, if it said non-creature. That's what dependencies are for.
@livanbard
29 күн бұрын
You want him to make creatures better too. Specially artifact creatures
@jolteon345
29 күн бұрын
Then Bello stops interacting cleanly with Vehicles that have more than 4 power/toughness. WotC tries to make cards interact as cleanly as possible, and March of the Machines is already a rules nightmare where you can actively overwrite the power/toughness. If Bello *only* turned them into 4/4 elementals with haste, it would be mostly fine, but being able to remove indestructible and the card draw from your vehicles to do more damage is far less clean than just having a handful of Gods interact in a weird manner.
@petermolnar6382
29 күн бұрын
@@jolteon345 That's fair enough
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
It would be much simpler if it was a trigger, but it's hard to animate things "at the beginning of your upkeep", "when Bello enters", and "whenever a new thing enters" through a single ability so I get it.
@theonlyherb1
23 күн бұрын
How does Bello function with the newly spoiled Overlord of the Hauntwoods (OOTH) assuming Bello is ouT and I then cast OOTH for impending.
@attackoncardboard
23 күн бұрын
Impending is a continuous effect, so it will be the same situation as the Gods. Timestamps.
@garamarou
28 күн бұрын
Thanks for the video ! The only way to have a god as a monster (without the devotion) is to play God first than Bello?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
You got it!
@AzgarthX
29 күн бұрын
so basically the whole reason for this commander which was to turn devotionless gods into creatures does not even work because their "isn't a creature" applies last, making the Bello pointless
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Did you watch the full video? The last scenario, where you have no devotion, as long as Bello is played 2nd, the god *will* become a creature. This is due to Timestamps.
@AzgarthX
29 күн бұрын
@attackoncardboard except that Bello is cheaper to cast so most likely will be out on the board before any of your gods otherwise you are screwing up on your mana curve.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@joebob7483
29 күн бұрын
You really think this card was made specifically for the gods? That’s a very silly interpretation.
@shekitten11
29 күн бұрын
So what happens when both Bello and the Enchantment God enter at the same exact time? (mass GY recursion, defense of the heart, etc).
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Basically each player chooses the order of the Timestamps. The active player will have the earliest Timestamps and the last player in the turn cycle will have the oldest. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@enoesiw
29 күн бұрын
It should be noted that this only applies to the turn you play Bello first. on every subsequent turn, the timestamp of the effect from Bello's ability is updated at the beginning of your turn when it starts applying again.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
That's not correct. Can you quote me the rule that says Bello will get an updated Timestamp at the start of your turn? Have a read of 613.7a and below and that will tell you how permanents get Timestamps.
@enoesiw
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard Bello won't. The continuous effect will because it only happens during your turn. Take a look at his interaction with Bludgeon Brawl
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
@@enoesiw I don't know what you're talking about. Can you elaborate? Bello's ability is tied to his timestamp: 613.7a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later. And Bello won't get a new timestamp unless they change zone, get turned facedown or one of the other reasons listed under 613.7
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
@@enoesiwIf Bello had a triggered ability that said "at the beginning of your upkeep... until end of turn", then the effect would get a new timestamp whenever it resolved. As is however, the ability only gets a timestamp as Bello enters the battlefield.
@willpatterson7531
19 күн бұрын
There's a new green enchantment creature with the new impending mechanic in the new set duskmorn I assume that it'll be similar to the theros gods situation.
@attackoncardboard
19 күн бұрын
Yup, basically exactly the same.
@FredrickTesla
29 күн бұрын
Well, slight problem, one of these abilities have dependencies: 613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. 613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. 613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order. 613.8c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied. Purphoros's ability is a dependent one, (depending on devotion) meaning it will activate when your devotion is under the threshold, regardless of timestamps. So if someone can kill off something that you were using for devotion after Bello's ability takes hold, then it loses it's creature type no matter which hit the field first.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
No? "An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect" - Neither Bello's, nor Purphoros's ability changes the text or the existence of the other. It's just timestamps.
@FredrickTesla
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard Puphoros's ability isn't dependent upon Bello's ability, it's dependent upon Devotion. That would change when it activates regardless of when Bello entered the field. Is Devotion not an ability?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
Devotion is a mechanic, not a continuous effect. It has nothing to do with the Layers. "Devotion to a color is defined as a numerical value that a player has, equal to the number of mana symbols of the color(s) in the mana costs of permanents they control."
@Lifender1st
16 күн бұрын
Does it work the same way the the "impending" ability of the duskmourn overlords ?
@attackoncardboard
16 күн бұрын
Basically works the exact same way.
@inspirationwizard1023
23 күн бұрын
Does this video also simultaneously apply to Zur, eternal schemer?
@attackoncardboard
23 күн бұрын
Correct.
@ninjaman0003
29 күн бұрын
Weird question just popped into my head. Say I have zinnia, valleys voice out. If I play clever impersonator, I can pay the offspring cost because it’s a creature spell. When clever impersonator enters, if I have it enter as a non-creature, would I make a 1/1 creature of that card with no creature type or would it be a non-creature copy? from what i found, offspring is treated like an ETB that creates the token after the creature enters. would it just be like a vehicle that can't be crewed? a 1/1 enchantment for instance that is not a creature?
@olixx1213
29 күн бұрын
The offspringed permanent has the same types as whatever clever entered as , so if it's something like rhystic study, you have a 1/1 Enchantment rhystic study (which isn't a creature)
@ichJONGleur
9 күн бұрын
Does that mean the theros gods are always creatures until layer 4 comes up? And how does that work with ygra? Will the gods be made food before losing the creature type?
@flocke91
29 күн бұрын
Thank you for that great video! Just discovered your channel :) One question is still there for me: Does this only count for the turn Bello and/or the gods are entering the battlefield? Or each turn after that, too (like, as if Bello's effect “triggers” for each of your turns separately, and so in the following turns is every time after the gods' devotion effect)?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Bello's ability is a "blanket" effect, similar to Blood moon. It applies for the whole turn and applies to any past and future enchantments entering play :) Bello's ability doesnt triggers (triggered abilities use the words "when", "whenever" and "At"), it just 'is'. Thanks for taking the time to comment, I hope you enjoy what's to come :D
@flocke91
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard Thank you for your detailed answer, makes a lot clearer now! :-) So generally speaking, all gods entering the battlefield after Bello never get to enjoy Bello's ability, as it is always there and in the layers timed before the gods' devotion effect?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Layers are applied constantly and instantly, any time anything happens in the game, the "Layers Program" is run and checked. Gods entering after Bello will get their Power and Toughness set to 4/4, but they wont get the benefit of becoming creatures, because their "devotion check" will always happen after Bello. So you'll have to find another way to animate them. (because then that ability would be applied *after* the devotion check)
@flocke91
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard Now I understand - thank you very much for the detailed explanation! ... and of course, I've subscribed to your channel. ;-)
@Buzzardonic
29 күн бұрын
In summary: Bello first, Devotion applies. God first, Bello overrules. Is that about right?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
That about covers it, although Bello will always make the gods 4/4 regardless of Timestamps. It's still important to understand why this happens, Layers and Timestamps are used in every single game 😀
@mdnardone
29 күн бұрын
When you say the god can’t attack because it’s not a creature at 4:27, doesn’t Bello turn it back into a creature?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Layers dont loop on themselves. Bello already applied his ability at that point, then the god applied theirs.
@mdnardone
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard That makes sense! Thanks for such a great video.
@lumbix8940
15 күн бұрын
Hey, what is when i play Bello and then the god. And now ich pass the turn so its only the god effect. Now i get the turn back. Will Bellos effekt treatend different and the got will be a creature (i dont have the devotion requirement)? Btw great video
@bonidc6732
29 күн бұрын
Klothys in shambles
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
big gods only 😤
@preguicagamer9797
21 күн бұрын
I mean,you could play these cards as one of the 99 as a finisher in the deck,and choose Esika as commander,then if you played a god or used the prismatic bridge to cheat a god into play,you could play Bello,ignore devotion and start attacking every turn with a different god,even though most gods are weakened by this,they gain haste and draw cards,I think its a good trade-off.
@aidantreap
27 күн бұрын
If Bello's ability had instead been a trigger such as "At the beginning up your upkeep, each [...] becomes a 4/4 [...]until end of turn" would it then supersede the God's ability each time since its not a static effect that's continuous?
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
It would have a new timestamp each time. A lot of interactions with this card would be simpler if it was some sort of trigger, but they want it to effect everything at the start of the turn, everything once Bello enters, and each new thing that enters so it would be pretty hard to phrase it well.
@memelordbatgrootnyoda7360
26 күн бұрын
Can you do a video on what happens when Bello loses his abilities? (Ruling says it still works)
@attackoncardboard
26 күн бұрын
I'll likely cover this in my Layers for Beginners remake, but yes that's correct. Humility-type effects won't stop Bello. Only Type Changing effects like Song of the Dryads
@loljackpot101
29 күн бұрын
So I have a question, I understand that this is how it works on the turn one or both bello and a god are played but what about in following turns? Since the gods dont change into creatures until your devotion is high enough would Bello's effect then reapply itself at the start of turn? Or would it have to say something along the lines of "At the start of your turn enchantments turn into creastures ect"? From its wording it's kinda hard to tell if it actually a continuous effect since its only active durring your turn, so does it turn off then back on at untap? Or is it technically always on?
@attackoncardboard
27 күн бұрын
It's technically always "on" it's constantly checking to see if it's your turn or not. It's simply not applied when the Layers are checked.
@hudsonsin
29 күн бұрын
The rules!
@illidan430
28 күн бұрын
I think you forget something , yes bello appli first, because bello only apply at your turn and its was already on the field compare to purphorous . So the turn you play purphorous ok its donc work but when the turn comeback to you , purphorous effect was continously apply from the time he enter the battle field . Ratther bello retry to apply at the begenning of you turn . So bello overwrite the devotion and work for turn 2 . Just the first turn you play purphorous and bello was already on field it doesnt work.
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
Layers are applied constantly, continuously and instantly. Bello doesnt "give up" on trying to apply their effect. Unless the timestamps change, your turns and the interactions between the Gods and Bello will be the same, it doesnt change from turn to turn.
@illidan430
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard i try to improv emy self so dont take it personnel i love to argue , bello abillity stop at end of turn , so in term yep it give up on trying apply because is no more your turn. At your 2nd turn bello try to re-apply the modification . But purphorous was continously apply, so you told me that the new continous effect(from the second turn)from bello apply before the continious effect of purphorous that was still apply from the last turn ? So 1 continous effect quand disapear and comeback first like it never dissapear ?
@illidan430
28 күн бұрын
Or you mean because bello donc says until end of turn . Is ability was apply on all turn but just modify on your turn ?
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
@@illidan430If Bello had a triggered ability then the effect would get a new timestamp each time a new instance resolved. Because it's a static ability, it uses Bello's timestamp which doesn't change from turn to turn.
@BigPumpie-tf7tq
28 күн бұрын
Wait a minute though, in scenario 1, where Bello was cast first and you don't get the God to become a creature, that makes sense to me sure, but what about when your turn rotates back around and all your enchantments become creatures again, would that not then be the more recent ability? Because all your enchantments turn BACK into creatures on your turn? I'd appreciate a response if you have the chance and cool video btw
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
Continuous Effects are always applied in Timestamp order. The if Bello is played first, it will have the earlier timestamp, and Bello's ability is tied to that timestamp. The timestamp doesn't change because the ability isn't "active", it just isn't applied because it isn't your turn.
@michaelheliotis5279
28 күн бұрын
This tedious bs with layers that would inevitably arise from the type-changing ability of the Theros gods-and has inflicted many a headache before the introduction of this new card-has absolutely convinced me of my longheld belief that the ability as implemented was an ill-advised mistake, and instead should have been conceived as *"As long as your devotion to [colour] is less than [number], CARDNAME can't attack and can't block."* It's honestly a little shocking they made it to print like that. Like, having something flip-flop between being and not being a creature on a continuous ability without at least the regularity and predictability of Bello's own ability was always going to result in an arduous interactions kerfuffle, and is particularly egregious considering it was clearly conceived that way mostly for flavour, which would have been just as functionally accomplished by letting the gods remain typed as creatures but without the capacity to attack or block (which is the only distinguishing feature of creatures compared to other permanents as far as the rules are concerned). And that's not to mention how it would have eliminated the gods' frustrating imperviousness to creature removal that nonsensically kicks in when their controller _isn't_ sufficiently devoted, something which is oppressively superfluous considering that their indestructibility already protects them more than adequately while still leaving open options like creature exile if that type wasn't being removed half the time. Sure, you might get niche inconsistencies like a supposedly non-intervening god that has Pounce cast on it while your devotion is low so it fights a creature anyway, but having a pacified god occasionally do creature things because of a spell isn't as incoherent as whatever type-changing bs we have to suffer through when something like Bello drops alongside a god. I honestly can't see any decent reason why losing its creature type is a better implementation of the 'manifesting through devotion' concept over just having the gods sit there without attacking or blocking when you don't have enough devotion. It's less of a headache, swifter to play around, and still does the intended flavour enough justice.
@paulbuckley2301
27 күн бұрын
My question: Bello is attacking with her un-worshipped Gods and un-crewed vehicles. Defending player Murders/Exiles Bello. Gods and Vehicles revert and are removed from combat. Right? Right. But now what if the player simply blinks Bello? Exiling and returning her to the battlefield all at once? Is her army removed for the split second they weren't creatures, or does State Based Actions not have the opportunity to check that because it's all during the resolution of a spell? Much like Master of the Waves?
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
Removing things from combat isn't a state based action, it's just a thing that happens in certain situations. 506.4: A permanent is removed from combat if it leaves the battlefield, if its controller changes, if it phases out, if an effect specifically removes it from combat, if it's a planeswalker that's being attacked and stops being a planeswalker, if it's a battle that's being attacked and stops being a battle, or if it's an attacking or blocking creature that regenerates (see rule 701.15), stops being a creature, or becomes a battle. A creature that's removed from combat stops being an attacking, blocking, blocked, and/or unblocked creature. A planeswalker or battle that's removed from combat stops being attacked.
@paulbuckley2301
27 күн бұрын
Correct. No longer being a creature would 'result' in an object being removed from combat. That much is pretty obvious, and didn't need a citation. I'm just trying to confirm that Bello works like Master of Waves, who can be blinked without its Elementals dying to 0 toughness.
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
@@paulbuckley2301 my point was that while state based actions are only checked at certain times, which don't include during the resolution of a spell or ability, removing things from combat has no such restrictions. It happens immediately, even if it's during the resolution of a spell or ability.
@seanandrewcura
26 күн бұрын
Question, does this only apply on the turn you cast these spells or does it apply to every subsequent turn until either Bello or the gods are removed from the battlefield? If you cast Bello before you cast Purph w/o devotion, it won't be a creature, but won't Bello make it a creature at the start of your next turn?
@seandun7083
26 күн бұрын
Neither the gods nor Bello will get new timestamps as their ability turns "on" or "off", so the interaction won't change from turn to turn.
@TheAceOfFire
29 күн бұрын
If you blink Bello, does that change the order on the layer?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Yup, if Bello gets blinked, they'll get a new Timestamp :) 613.7d An object receives a timestamp at the time it enters a zone.
@connerl4874
29 күн бұрын
wouldn't bellos ability turning off and then back on again during your turn reset the timestamp?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
The ability never turns off, it's always checking to see if it's your turn or not. It will only get a new timestamp if Bello changes zones or is turned face down/up.
@LapizDragon
28 күн бұрын
What happens when they both enter at the same time? I think there's a ruling that says the active player chooses the timestamp order but is that decision only made once?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
Basically each player chooses the order of the Timestamps. The active player will have the earliest Timestamps and the last player in the turn cycle will have the oldest. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order
@lukascowan6357
29 күн бұрын
so wait in scenario 2 does them being a non-creature 4/4 work like a vehicle or would them getting -1/-1 counters kill them
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Enchantments or artifacts don't go to the graveyards for having -1/-1 counters on them. Enchantment Creatures and Artifact creatures would however.
@Erimioa
28 күн бұрын
as far as I know "can't" effects always win. Wouldn't it be the same with "isn't"?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
"Isn't" isn't "Can't"
@evanolszewski6441
29 күн бұрын
How would the timestamp resolve in this case if both cards entered play at the same time with a card like Ghalta, Stampede Tyrant? Or does that not work like i think it does?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Basically each player chooses the order of the Timestamps. The active player will have the earliest Timestamps and the last player in the turn cycle will have the oldest. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@nils3939
26 күн бұрын
what happens when both god and bello etb at the same time, say if both were in your graveyard and someone cast a mass reanimate spell.
@seandun7083
26 күн бұрын
If multiple things enter at the same time, timestamps go in AP/NAP order of different players control them. Their controller orders them if multiple have the same controller.
@elispielvogel8529
29 күн бұрын
what happens if they come into play at the same time through Kamahl's Druidic Vow or something?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Basically each player chooses the order of the Timestamps. The active player will have the earliest Timestamps and the last player in the turn cycle will have the oldest. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@greghouse8833
29 күн бұрын
Wath happends if they enter the battlefield at the same time? With Tooth and Nail for example.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Basically each player chooses the order of the Timestamps. The active player will have the earliest Timestamps and the last player in the turn cycle will have the oldest. 613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@Tyabelx
29 күн бұрын
What happens if Bello and a God enters the battelfield simultaneously?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
For permanents entering play at the same time, the controller chooses the Timestamp order and then it goes around in APNAP order for each other player if they also had things entering.
@Tyabelx
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard thank you!
@KHJohan
29 күн бұрын
If your devotion to a god’s color reaches the threshold and then goes back below it, wouldn’t that cause the god’s effect to trigger
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
What's triggering? Triggered abilities are denoted by "When", "Whenever" and "At".
@johnnoreau3570
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboardI’ve seen you argue back and forth a few times. You clearly know a lot. And you’re sometimes replying to people that don’t exactly know what they’re saying. When this person said the ability triggers they mean when devotion comes online. You can clearly understand this. (You as in a general reader). You. (You personally. The KZitem channel) are just being an “Ummm ashktually nothing “triggered” what “triggered” that’s not a triggered ability” You (again a general reader) could clearly tell he meant when the ability activated. You. (Again the KZitem channel) having all the wisdom in the world overlooked this and automatically corrected them to tell them it’s not a triggered ability. Rather than try to understand what they’re asking 😭 you magic personalities act so big behind your channels. But when someone catches you in 4k or call you out. You guys run back behind your screens. I live for finding moments like this and calling you fakes out. There was another thread where the person couldn’t spell properly but was still making a point against you. You just stopped responding even though they had a point. What. Can’t argue against someone who can’t spell correctly even if they’re proving you wrong because it makes you look bad??
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
@@johnnoreau3570 Lots to break down here, lets go through it. I ask people questions because I want people to be able to work things out for themselves. I'm not going to be there in every single situation to provide the answer. Knowing the difference between Triggered abilities, Activated abilities and continuous effects is important. Had they replied, I would have continued the conversation and explained further. My preferred teaching style is asking questions, if you've watched any of my videos, you'll see that I love doing that. I generally open every single video with a question. "when someone catches you in 4k" - How have I been 'caught'? My whole channel is based on educating people about this game. And I continue to do that in the comments. I answer and reply (or at the very least acknowledge) about 90% of the comments that happen on the channel. This is not my full time job mind you. And that's one of the reasons I don't always reply back, I'll see the comment at work on my phone and then forget to reply back to it at the end of the day (if it's not just a simple thing). Not to mention, if a comment is hard to understand or I struggle to understand what is being asked, I'll probably put it on the back burner and respond to it later. (Note; they asked the question at 12am my time, I replied, then went to bed). If you want to discuss this further, my DMs are open on Twitter, or you can add me on Discord and we can chat about any grievances you have. Always happy to receive any constructive feedback, good or bad.
@peepeemcgee97
28 күн бұрын
Not a big deal or anything, but Klothys, God of Destiny is another god you can play in these colors!
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
What's their mana cost? I'm pretty sure I mention this in the video.
@peepeemcgee97
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard I'm silly, she's three mana and wouldn't work with the commander. Guess I should have looked her up before commenting lol
@Miguel_Pratz
28 күн бұрын
Just putting it out there, the thumbnail for your layers episode is brilliant 😂😂🧅🧅
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
😂 How could I not include him? I'll be sure to work him into the remake of that video too 🤣
@tiziobello4020
29 күн бұрын
is this working with Anikthea, hand of herebos too?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
Depends what you're asking.
@angelvalera1997
17 күн бұрын
And what if they enter the battlefield at the same time?
@attackoncardboard
17 күн бұрын
Assuming you control both of them, you choose the timestamp order 🙂
@artival22
26 күн бұрын
But if you play a god first and then Bello but WITHOUT devotion, its a 4/4 on your turn. But if you gain devotion on a later turn, would it go back to its original power?
@attackoncardboard
26 күн бұрын
What effect would set it back to it's original power?
@seandun7083
25 күн бұрын
Both the god's type changing ability and Bello's will share a timestamp with their source since they are static abilities. If instead they were for example triggered abilities ("at the beginning of your upkeep, ... become 4/4 creatures ... until end of turn"), then they would get a new timestamp each time they resolve.
@Jazzgo56
29 күн бұрын
So what happens at the beginning of your turn when they become creatures again?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
What do you mean? You just run through the layers list again. Layers are applied constantly, continuously and instantly.
@Jazzgo56
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard so what exactly happens? Since it’s different depending on which comes down first between Bello and the enchantment creature god, what happens when it goes to your turn and you don’t meet the requirements? Please elaborate. Also for something like Garuuks uprising, do you get the trigger of drawing a card for each 4 cost enchantment and artifact that was on the battlefield prior to the start of your turn? Does it count as them entering?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
@@Jazzgo56 I still don't really understand what you're asking. Layers are constantly checked and instantly updated. As soon as your turn starts, Bello's effect will change all non-aura enchantments and non-equipment artifacts into 4/4s, but this continuous effect is also applied with any other continuous effects too. (As per the Layers and Timestamps) Just because Bello's effect was "off" during other players turns, doesn't change the Timestamp it has. If Bello was in play before one of the Gods, Bellos effect will still be applied before the gods ability.
@Jazzgo56
28 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard oh okay. That makes sense. But in the case of Garuuk’s uprising stating “Whenever a creature with power 4 or greater enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card.” Does that trigger at the start of your turn for each enchantment and artifact with cost 4 or more since they turn into creatures? Also, would this work for an artifact creature that has mana value 4? When do I get to draw cards? Or does this only happen right when the enchantment or artifact was cast and etb’s as a 4/4 creature?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
@@Jazzgo56 RE Garuuk's uprising. GU only triggers when "Whenever a creature with power 4 or greater enters". If the 4 power creatures are already in play, how are they entering? If you have Bello and GU in play, and you cast a 4CMC Enchantment or Artifact during your turn, GU would see it enter as a 4/4 and trigger :)
@zean1337
27 күн бұрын
you left out Klothys, God of Destiny ... 6 GODS
@attackoncardboard
27 күн бұрын
Oh? How much mana do they cost?
@PirateMaster45
29 күн бұрын
I need to know this interaction because I play the OG Nylea in my current build of Bello. What if I play Nylea first then play Bello with Nylea's Devotion being already active? Bello wouldn't change her right?
@Chaore
29 күн бұрын
If Nylea drops first, Bello's effect has priority and she will always be a creature on your turn regardless of devotion. The problem is if Bello Drops first that Nylea's creature rule would supercede Bello's text, making her not a creature even on your turn. No matter what, Bello will still give Nylea the Haste and Card Draw effects on your turn, at the cost of making her a 4/4. Her Trample and Active abilities will remain untouched. She returns to normal on other's turns however, so she remains a good choice for a blocker in your deck, as she won't be de-animated like normal enchantments.
@Dekztir
29 күн бұрын
The video explains this scenario, watch it again.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Sounds like Scenario #1 :)
@master-zaynelotus5048
27 күн бұрын
They are 4/4 elements with their ability and haste and indestructible. Easy
@hellhound22_18
29 күн бұрын
So essentially, don’t play the theros gods in a deck with Bello. Got it 😂
@christopherealy8025
29 күн бұрын
So what you're saying is, don't add gods to my bello deck because it's going to be a lot to keep track of.
@curtisscism1522
18 күн бұрын
You forgot Klothys god of destiny.
@attackoncardboard
18 күн бұрын
How much mana do they cost?
@curtisscism1522
18 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard oh crap. Hahah cmc 4. My bad
@modenoatr
26 күн бұрын
"Don't play the gods in a Bello deck" ok got it 👍
@Distantone11
28 күн бұрын
you forgot Klothys
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
How much mana are they?
@danielharrison2383
29 күн бұрын
so i've learned that it is probably not worth running the gods in this deck if you are intending to attack with them.
@seandun7083
27 күн бұрын
You do get the curiosity effect though
@danielharrison2383
27 күн бұрын
@@seandun7083 might as well run an enchantment that also gets you the curiosity effect but can have other more beneficial effects.
@tysonkrunek4132
29 күн бұрын
Klothis?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
is 3 CMC.
@Angelisian
29 күн бұрын
Forgot Klothys, God of Destiny, who could also be in this deck.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
What CMC is Klothys and what CMC does Bello care about? And what do I say at 1:02?
@workshoptelescope
28 күн бұрын
Why is reading somehow harder than writing?
@raphaeltrillanes8874
29 күн бұрын
Five gods? I guess ill see myself and my klothys deck out then...... :(
@slickzeitgeist
29 күн бұрын
bello doesn't care about your low cmc klothys
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Only big boi gods allowed I'm afraid 😅 (Gods with CMC 4 or greater.)
@SkullGrin-s7y
27 күн бұрын
I'm starting to think MTG might be a silly game.
@xxPow3rslave
29 күн бұрын
what a mess to keep track of. i appreciate this video outlining the rules, but the way these interact is definitely an anti-fun mechanic.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Kinda, I mean if you're playing Bello, all you need to do is simply keep track of when Bello was played. After the gods, they'll be creatures. Before the gods, it still comes down to devotion.
@whitenightmare9341
29 күн бұрын
first hehe
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Hope you liked the video :)
@sammalmede8967
28 күн бұрын
How is this fun?
@attackoncardboard
28 күн бұрын
Layers are the most fun things in Magic 😂
@maku175
29 күн бұрын
So don't play gods in Bello got it 👍 lmfao
@QuicksilverSG
6 күн бұрын
"Layers" is retconned rules-lawyering bullshit enforced by WotC sycophants. Stop treating the game like some intricately fine-tuned engine and play your cards as they stand, updated by the latest errata. Here is the simple, human-friendly rule that resolves all disputes: Continuous effects start from the moment they're activated, not in some hair-splitting "timestamp order". Belo's ability is a continuous effect that starts and ends on each of your turns. It affects specific types of artifacts and enchantments while they are in-play during each of your turns. Purphoros is one of those affected enchantments, regardless of whether it's a creature as well. In short, Belo makes Purphoros a 4/4 Elemental creature during each of your turns.
@attackoncardboard
6 күн бұрын
😂 a lot of text to say "I don't want to learn the rules because they're too hard"
@QuicksilverSG
6 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard I learned the rules last century. I don't need rules lawyers retconing MTG with every new set.
@attackoncardboard
6 күн бұрын
Ah so you still stack damage and take mana burn? Weird cope but do whatever BS your friends put up with I suppose 😂
@QuicksilverSG
6 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard Mana burn would have protected us from the degenerate glut of Treasure tokens. The stack is a pseudo-programming conceit retconned in the early 2000's to sort out the confusion created by WotC's elimination of Interrrupts.
@attackoncardboard
6 күн бұрын
How so? You take mana burn when phases end and you have mana in your pool. Treasures don't give you excess mana, you literally only activate and sacrifice the ones you need.
@AscendFromDarkness97
29 күн бұрын
What a dumb interaction. The same cards have 2 entirely different effects just depending on what order you play them in. Who decided that was a good way to handle things like this?
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Let's say you have two cards, one says "Creatures lose flying", the other says "Creatures gain flying". How would you resolve this situation? Do creatures fly or not?
@AscendFromDarkness97
29 күн бұрын
@@attackoncardboard I can see multiple ways to do this which are independent of ETB time. One being mana value. Another being a rule that if two effects are directly inverse of another they cancel out.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
Mana Value - How does that work with effects that remove abilities like Frogify and Rancor. So if I have a creature in play with Frogify (CMC 2) enchanted to it, and then I enchant it with Rancor (CMC 1), the creature would still not have trample. But using the Timestamp method, it would have trample. inverse effects - So negative effects will always win out across the board? Having them cancel out is the same has just having the negative effect in play. Dont forget, Timestamps and layers work with every card old and new in a consistent way.
@joebob7483
29 күн бұрын
“Not and cannot” effects always supersede “can and have” effects. 101.2.
@attackoncardboard
29 күн бұрын
@@joebob7483 Right. But "Can't have flying" is different to "loses flying". A creature equipped with Colossal Hammer can still be equipped with Wing Boots after and will then have flying.
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