I made this coil 3/4" ID following Tech Dregs instructions and it takes less then 5 seconds to make 223 case glow with 360W power and less than 2 seconds with 800 Watt power. Using Chinese 1000W ZVS board and 3/16 tubing.
@frenchcreekvalley
3 ай бұрын
Yup. This video is one of several that I made, showing my progress toward a smaller diameter 3 layer, 3 turn coil that does what you say; kzitem.info/news/bejne/yGx9rIGmk4eLaqA
@keeper1959fem
3 жыл бұрын
Justan update I changed my mind on the size of the heater from the 1800w to the 1000w unit. After watching your videos again it looks like I will better able to control the timing with the smaller unit. Since I will be using an automatic system. KZitem is great for projects, and because of people like you an immense help to people like me.
@billshafley6048
Жыл бұрын
Any advice for running the 2500w version to anneal brass? I tried a coil just like this, but I fried the 100A solid state relay. Seems like a short in the zvs but with limited knowledge of this circuitry I am not certain if the coil is attributing to the “short” or if there is an actual problem with the zvs.
@frenchcreekvalley
Жыл бұрын
First thing I'd do is to put the "stock" coil back onto the 2500 Watt ZVS board to see if it is still "alive". I am not surprised that the SSR failed since, with the coil in this video attached to the 2500 watt unit, you'd probably be drawing 2 or 3 times the current that you see here. In addition, I have blown several of those Fake "100 Amp" DC SSR's myself. See: kzitem.info/news/bejne/uZlusJ6XsHmDqX4 Feel free to ask more questions if I have missed something.
@speedbuggy16v
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video, you obviously understand the electronics side far better than I do. I am considering something like this only automated with an arduino. My line of thought is using a case coallator dropping into a mechanism controlled by the arduino to drop one shell at a time down a borosilicate tube inside the coil which will heat it for whatever time you program the arduino, and then drop it via a sliding gate, also controlled by the arduino into a bucket of water. That way you can just drop your cases in the coallater and walk away. Big dreams, and a lot of learning to make it all happen though....... LOL
@LabRatJason
Жыл бұрын
I'm literally building the setup you just described! Even down to the borosilicate glass... I'm using an Ernie Ball guitar slide! Going to build my own collator from a home depot bucket and a 3D printed plate.
@bucketlistbeginner
5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great video and sharing the build I'm going to build an induction. Annealer the temp should be around 650f to allow for a little coasting if the brass turns red it too hot you are losing properties of the brass use some templar available in pottery supply and on the net it really helps dialing in I'm glad you tried different coil shapes that was on my list I'd love a video on just the gauges I haven't seen any of that thanks again keep them coming
@frenchcreekvalley
5 жыл бұрын
I talk about the gauges on some of my induction heater videos in my "electronics" playlist.. A summary of my latest annealing coil attempts here: kzitem.info/news/bejne/yGx9rIGmk4eLaqA Here;s my new webpage speciifically about the frequency meter: spaco.org/Blacksmithing/ZVSInductionHeater/MakingAFrequencyCounterForNoisyAndSineWaveInputs.htm This is my work coil page: spaco.org/Blacksmithing/ZVSInductionHeater/WorkCoilsForZVSInductionHeater.htm It has a link to the latest update of my work coil data spreadsheet.
@RetrieverTrainingAlone
3 жыл бұрын
Based on studies by Annealing Made Perfect, annealing did not begin at 660F for an hour in an oven....for a .223 case they flash using an induction anneal for 3.4 seconds to a peak temperature of 1000F.
@keeper1959fem
2 жыл бұрын
Update and thank you for all your help. I did go with a 3 turn three layer 4mm coil, and it seems to be working wonderfully. @ Better videos like yours to come
@frenchcreekvalley
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the feedback. I am glad that it worked out.
@keeper1959fem
2 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley I do have one question. On my coil I use 4mm tubing with a three turn three layer coil. The inside diameter is about 5/8". When annealing my current is about 11.78 Amps. The coil is water cooled. the cases are annealing like their suppose to, I just wanted to find out if the coil is working well with my 1000w 48v heater. I'm annealing 6mm br norma cases
@frenchcreekvalley
2 жыл бұрын
@@keeper1959fem I just looked at some info from one of my 3T X3L coil work. I was drawing about 14 amps idle and about 20 with a 30 cal. neck in the coil. I am using a very good 48 volt DC power supply the never droops in voltage, well beyond 20 amperes. If your power supply has less voltage, expect the current to be less. I suppose there might also be an issue of meter reading accuracy to consider. In my case, I think my metering system is pretty good.
@keeper1959fem
2 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley My power supply is a commercial server 3000w supply. My meter isn't the best it's a inexpensive one form china. my power supply is ran by a SSR so there isn't any idle draw. What should i watch for if the coil isn't large enough?
@frenchcreekvalley
2 жыл бұрын
@@keeper1959fem At this point, I don't think there's an issue with the coil. Are you using an AC SSR to turn on power to the power supply? Some of those supplies don't go "online" for several seconds after power is applied. It could be that the supply isn't up to full voltage during the few seconds that it takes to heat the cartridge neck. I assume you have some sort of timer. How long is it set for?
@robertanderson8613
5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the awesome video I was getting ready to build the same thing for my brass I'd like to see a smaller coil and only anneal the shoulder and neck use some templar .at 650 because it will coast. You can get templac at welding supply ceramic supply the successful ones I've seen look like they use 12awg wire I think I'd like to use capillary tubing for freezers etc u could still water cool that way. I'll be watching a lot thanks for doing all the hard work
Robert Anderson use 750 tempilaq. Brass flash anneals somewhere north of 800F. Also, induction heating heats MUCH faster than flame does thus, your brass will get hotter faster. Remember annealing time is inverse relationship of the heat. The hotter it gets, the less time you need to heat it. You can easily spike your brass up to north of 900F and your brass is perfectly fine because it a temperature rises insanely quick. Say if it took a few seconds at 800F to anneal a piece of brass, then at 922F it would take a half second.
@robertanderson8613
5 жыл бұрын
@@jetthreat5000 I agree my plan is to use cap tubing I'm retired now I was maintenance. Supervisor for years at a school then went back to work as an electrician. I have hunting buddy that has a heat and vent company so I can go in the supply and get what I need solid wire would be a pain I've used them a lot for bearings and such but I'm with you capillary tubing will work great I have a few small bottles of templar but I think there toast I'm going to try the crayon type I really enjoy your channel keep am coming rob
@jetthreat5000
5 жыл бұрын
With induction annealing with a home made unit you use 750F tempilaq from the neck to on the body. Brass flash anneals somewhere above 800F and heat will build up in the neck faster than the shoulder or body. Center the center of the shoulder in the center of the coil. The center is the strongest part of the magnetic field and this allows the shoulder to heat without the neck heating up too fast. The neck will always heat up faster due to a lower mass. Using this method you get your timing down by waiting until the 750F tempilaq melts a few MM on the body. Your coil is way too big. You need to turn a tighter coil for more efficiency and faster annealing. Look up the GinaErick annealer. That coil works great.
@frenchcreekvalley
5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your comments. But I don't need to anneal cartridge brass myself and the $25.00 or so for a bottle of tempilaq is something I don't need to spend. But yes, I am working on a couple of fixtures for making smaller work coils. My own personal goal is to make those smaller coils without sand or salt, just as a personal challenge. I have seen that annealer. They did a great job of making a nice looking unit.
@jmm6990
12 күн бұрын
quick question,where can I get that frequency meter that you are using?
@frenchcreekvalley
12 күн бұрын
I think I got them on Ebay: DIY 1Hz-50MHz Digital LED Crystal Oscillator Frequency Counter Meter Tester Kit -----------But they are also available from other sellers like aliexpress, etc., and maybe cheaper than Ebay. Just google "frequency counter kit" and look for the one that look like mine.
@mortenbreiland3984
4 жыл бұрын
What do you think about 750° F for annealing brass (70% copper and 30% zinc). Do you think that is enough to make the case neck softer in this short amount of time? Would one of your work harden copper tubes be easier to bend after annealing at this temperature?
@AntonioMoraesBR
Жыл бұрын
what is the best frequency for brass? I am at 198 kHz, too high?
@frenchcreekvalley
Жыл бұрын
Higher frequencies seem to be used more often for nonferrous metals, but those higher frequencies don't heat as deeply. To me, its more about heat transfer rate and the ability of the equipment to stand the higher frequencies without overheating. Listen again to my comments at about 11:16. If you are using a work coil with too little inductance, you will have circuit overheating problems. If you are using one of the 1000 watt zvs induction heaters like the one I use in this video, then 198 kHz is way too high for the circuit and will probably cause overheating of the circuit and failure of the Mosfets. If I missed that point of your question, feel free to enlighten me.
@timw9919
4 жыл бұрын
Your time to anneal only has a very small window because of heat creep into the rest of the case. For those sze cases anything more than 10 sec will have the heat way too high past the case neck. You need to increase power voltage till you get where they are roughly the case mouth is just reached 1000f. You also have too much of the case inside the coils. You do not want to be causing any induction below the case shoulder. I know you were doing worse case and you were more worried with inducion performance of the coil. For use set the top of the cade mouth inline with the middle of the center coil. Look awesome. Nice setup over all. Wish I had your knowledge of the engineering aspects. I more just know about proper brass annealing. I enjoy your videos on all of this. For getting the temps try a laser thermometer. Otherwise get tempilaq paint. Make sure to get 400 for right below the shoulder as in terms of safety its the most critical part. Drop into water to arrest the process.
@frenchcreekvalley
4 жыл бұрын
Yes, I know that the heating needs to occur more quickly. My other two videos show these improvements. As I matter of fact, using 1/8" diameter tubing and multiple layer coils, I can get the neck glowing in 0.7 seconds. Regarding the laser thermometer: Using one of these and believing the readings really worries me. Most of those devices have an 8 to 1 viewing ratio. This means that, if you are holding the device 8 inches away from the object of interest, you are getting the AVERAGE temperature within a one inch diameter circle surrounding the laser dot. Since your shell casing neck is a lot smaller than that, you will certainly be reading a lower temperature than actually exists. I'd say that the Tempilaq is a better choice, as long as you are heating slowly enough to see the change and to get the power off before the part has gotten too hot. But---- as you have said, the slower the heat, the faster the heat transfer to the base of the casing. I am also very surprised to see, in most the casing annealing videos that the casings are left to slow cool, without dropping into water.
@timw9919
4 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley Thank you for the reply. I did not know that about the laser thermometers. More precisely I did not know it was that poor focus area. I assumed 0.25" range. Yes I agree tempilaq on inside of case neck and on outside of shoulder to ensure limit on temp creep. I think many discount brasses thermal conductivity. I do not think they realize how fast the temp can rise in the shoulder/upper body of the case even after heat source is removed Its why the low temp molten salt pots do not work beyond the very initial part of recovery phase of annealing. Basically limited stress relief but little to no effect on hardness. (A few points vickers best case}. The large University Illinois 70/30 cartridge brass annealing study used molten lead. @ 1000°F using fast switch sensors ut showed it took 19 seconds for a fully submerged sample equal in thickness to case neck to reach the molten pot temperature. This is fully submerged. It would take significantly longer with 90% of the cases mass in be air acting as a large cooling heat sink. For it to work they need high temp chloride based molten salts temps above 1500°F. It maybe higher. I would need to test. But any of these carry far greater user dangers than either torch or induction annealing. Induction allows for the most focused precise annealing of the target neck area. No other process can heat the mass of the beck faster and as evenly thru the surface and thickness of the neck. What we are actually trying to achieve is "Temper Annealing" or "Annealing to Temper". We are annealing to reach a targeted hardness i.e. temper. Versus Annealing to fully annealed state. There is actually an entire standard for this type of annealing I was unaware of till I researched. Ideal target based on all the research testing I have seen is 95-105HV for case necks.
@timw9919
4 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley Sorry second part I wanted to add detail about my similar project: For my testing I choose a unit with enough size and cooling for 100% duty cycle. Way more power than needed at max voltage. Control that by using variable power supply. Max @48v is 2kw way overkill. (Tubing and circulation pump for cooling. ) I am trying to duplicate times known to work and adjust voltage to match those without breaking threshold temp limit in shoulder. Want to find a single power setting that will allow only time adj for different mass case necks. Do not want small cases to have such short ideal anneal time that +/-0.25 sec could cause significant variation. A timer control module between always on adj voltage PS. Relay with reverse bias diod to prevent frying the power supply and transformer. Timer controlling relay. This also addresses a lock up damage from soft start PS. It will be constant on. Secondary relay to some sort of actuator to slide base the case sits upon allowing the case to immediately drop into a bucket of water at timer limit. Down road work out automated feeder. What I am focused on now is tubing diameter and number of coils at tight spacing to keep heat focused only on neck area but enough focus area that it works with various length necks. Need range to be 0.200" - 0.500". I feel thermal absorption rte of the brass is enough to take care of the shoulder area?? Maybe have the field reach 1/2 down the shoulder length?? Not counting the incomplete coil wraps from the two terminal ends thinking 2 full coils. Still considering 3/16" vs 1/4" tubing. I also learned we get better effiency if the terminal ends are closer together running parallel to each other. I found this technical article on induction coil design insightful: www.ambrell.com/hubfs/Ambrell_PDFs/coil_design.pdf I find your videos helpful and encouraging others are working on this rather than buying a black box and not learning anything. My goal is for all cases small volume .22 calt time not be so short as to have too small margin of error tolerance or on the flip side a Lapua mag + time to be so long as to have too much heat creep into the body. Ideally I would prefer to keep power voltage fixed and adjust with time only. This requires finding that happy place lol
@howardiko7156
3 жыл бұрын
Hey what if could measure the case temperature then ramp back to hold temperature for a set time? Arduino might work. I think the Brass might be getting to hot and to short time.
@frenchcreekvalley
3 жыл бұрын
I'm not a metallurgist, so I won't debate the time vs.temperature issue but It has always bothered me that most Reloader guys don't drop the brass casings into water to stop the annealing from going too far down from the neck. Brass is NOT like steel, so you aren't actually "Quenching" (as in "hardening") when you drop it into water, but just cooling the work to keep the heat from going where it's not wanted. There are a couple of problems with measuring temperature accurately for cartridge casing annealing, as I see it. -The sensor may be directly affected by the induction heating process itself, which would lead to inaccurate readings. -The mass of the sensor compared to the mass of the neck may also become an issue, as well as the method of attaching the sensor to the casing. -If you plan the heating profile to be slow enough for the sensor, then the heat at the neck will have an opportunity to run down the casing and possibly soften the material farther down than desired. As far as "holding the temperature for a set time" goes: Brass, which is mostly copper, conducts heat very well, so it would be really difficult to try to hold the neck at some fixed temperature without allowing too much heat to move down the casing. By the way, I mess around with Arduino a LOT: spaco.org/Computing/arduino.htm I hope some of this helps.
@fytech1
5 жыл бұрын
May i ask what is the isolation material around the coil?
@frenchcreekvalley
5 жыл бұрын
It is this: www.ebay.com/itm/1meter-Manhattan-F240-2AWG-6-68mm-240-C-Fiberglass-high-temperature-sleeving/161643155584?hash=item25a2aed080:g:r0UAAOSw-7RVCqnZ
@stephanc7192
4 ай бұрын
It feels as if 30 seconds is long.
@frenchcreekvalley
4 ай бұрын
Yes it is kinda long. But I went on to make and test other coils. Here is the best one. It heats the neck almost too quickly: kzitem.info/news/bejne/yGx9rIGmk4eLaqA
@stephanc7192
4 ай бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley thank you for your response. I appreciate it. I am starting a build for case anealing. Kind regards
@keeper1959fem
3 жыл бұрын
Just out of curiosity, why such a large diameter "ID" coil? It's my understanding a person wants the coil to be built closer to "OD" of what your annealing.
@frenchcreekvalley
3 жыл бұрын
Good question, but with a complex answer, at least from me. Smaller diameter coils generally have a lower inductance which leads to a higher resonant frequency. These ZVS heaters don't like that. For this size of heater (the 1000 watt) this coil is already pushing the upper limit. At this limit (about 130 kHZ) the Mosfets don't turn on fast enough and tend to overheat and fail. Also its hard to make smaller diameter coils without kinking. I do solve that problem later on in this series by using smaller diameter tubing and more turns. But, since we want to concentrate the heating to just the neck, I eventually settle on 3 layers of 3 turns each, with an ID of 5/8" to do the job.
@keeper1959fem
3 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley Awe that makes sense. I didn't know what size tubing you were using in this video. If you don't mind me asking, what size tubing were you using in later videos for the three turn 3 layer coil? See I found a online calculator that should get me close to what the new ZVS coil that comes with my new heater. I took your advice and ordered a solid state contactor since timing could be an issue with a mechanical contactor, not to mention the life of a SSC is worth the rew extra $.
@frenchcreekvalley
3 жыл бұрын
@@keeper1959fem I used 1/8" diameter copper tubing for the 3 X 3 coil.
@keeper1959fem
3 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley Can you tell me the video you used the 1/8" coil?
@frenchcreekvalley
3 жыл бұрын
@@keeper1959fem This one: kzitem.info/news/bejne/yGx9rIGmk4eLaqA I think you already watched it.
@keeper1959fem
3 жыл бұрын
Hello FCV My question is this, does the length of the copper tubing coming out of the coil affect the micro henry's? I have a 1000w ZVS i'll be running at 48v using 1/8" copper tubing wrapped in shrink tubing. See I'm building my own annealer to anneal brass rifle cartridges. the coil will be water cooled. See I've seen a shorter coil made by little annie with only 5 turns instead of 7, but with longer tubing running out of the coil.. One last question, how far up in the coil is the minimum to anneal brass casing as my case is 1.560 in long, and I want to make sure I put my case up inside the coil long enough to anneal the short case.
@frenchcreekvalley
3 жыл бұрын
The length of straight tubing coming out of the coil does not change the inductance very much. Watch this video where I use a 3 turn, 3 layer coil with a 5/8" inside diameter and then get back to me if you have any more questions: kzitem.info/news/bejne/yGx9rIGmk4eLaqA I am not a reloader myself, but I think you will only want just enough neck inside the coil to heat the area that will be swagging the bullet into place . As I understand it, you do NOT want to anneal the lower part of the case at all. I have been surprised to see many folks using longer coils that sometimes even enclose the whole casing.
@keeper1959fem
3 жыл бұрын
@@frenchcreekvalley This is why I was asking questions about the number of coils. Yes I only want to anneal the neck down to below the shoulder quarter inch. I just wanted to make sure I was setting up my annealer platform correctly so that I would be able to place the brass appropriately inside the coils . I will watch your video on the multilayer coil. I like that Idea for space savings. Thank you for your help and guidance.
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