“You have to believe liars in order to believe Joseph was lying”. Succinctly and truthfully put Jeremy.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
Lying is at the heart of Mormonism.
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
@@jrtodd-br4zc 37:05 So true.
@jacquelinesmith1509
2 ай бұрын
@sdfotodude no it's at the heart of liars.
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
If all of those close, high-ranking followers of Joseph Smith lied about him originating polygamy, keep in mind that Joseph Smith placed every one of those liars into their positions. As the saying goes, you can tell a lot about the character of a man by the company he keeps.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 I have told Michelle a dozen times that if all of her friends came to me and told me that she was having an affair or 35 I would probably believe them over her
@SamieLeigh
2 ай бұрын
Please keep doing this work you three! We are with you!! Truth will prevail! Excellent episode !!
@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm
2 ай бұрын
I absolutely love the information that is coming from this channel. It is the confirmation I have needed my whole life. I grew up in Provo Utah and I'm a return missionary. After my mission I started breaking the word of wisdom. That led to 15 years of addiction. This September will be 10 years of no alcohol. I've always known something was off with the church. I am an active member and will continue to be for the rest of my life. However it brings me such great joy to know the truth. Thank you all so much for your research and diligence. May God continue to bless you! 👍🏻 👁️🙏🏻👁️
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
The church has always been pathologically lying to members since 1830. They still are.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
Well said👌. I'm also active member and will be till the end but the practices of early saints never made an ounce of sense to me and the stories kept changing as I got older. It's a good reminder that we worship the God in heaven not the God of Brigham Young which is what was always grilled my entire life until truth showed its face. It's a beautiful thing isn't it🙏😇
@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 💯🙏🏻
@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 I just checked out your channel to see if you had any content. Thank you for creating a beautiful music playlist. I am currently packing up and moving from Texas back to Utah. I've had the missionaries over twice to help out and didn't have a playlist of music I could play while they were helping me move. Now I do, thanks to you. 🙏🏻
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
It's not the end my friend. Active member means reading the book of Mormon even more than the mission and then getting shocked that it's hard to stay "active" against all the false things taught. The great thing is you'll be closer to God than ever before, and you may be shouting from the rooftops. May you be blessed in all your efforts to stay clean.
@Surefoundation504
2 ай бұрын
To call polygamy deniers and heartlanders Korihors is extremely sloppy, ridiculous, prideful and disingenuous.
@MormonLutherFiveSolas
2 ай бұрын
Joseph said even to his own mother the Neohites walked the very ground they lived on. So sister Haynie is a Zelf Denier
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
We're also apostates because we believe in fidelity and chastity. I mean.. I'm a temple going, active church member that will happily take on the title "apostate" according to members who believe in "holy prostitution" and ped0philia. It's amazing how many sins and crimes can be justified by claiming they're from God. We don't even need the d e v i l at that point.
@MormonLutherFiveSolas
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 it’s all just another branding product they sell as a corporation under the Brethrenite marketing schema. I may write a paper on this under my PhD or a my paper to finish my DBA this fall-that’s been sitting like a chocolate bar in the sun. 😂. It’s all business and branding.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
@iDad7276 "Chocolate bar in the sun"🤣👌. Do it! We definitely need more writers on this subject until it can no longer be ignored.
@reppi8742
2 ай бұрын
Satan is the master of chaos and division. What did polygamy do to the church? "Saints" calling other Saints Korihors are his agents. They are causing division and chaos. They are feeling anger, not peace. Peace comes from Christ. .
@prezp00nage24
2 ай бұрын
I actually wrote a paper for my family to read recently that I titled "Carefully Worded", highlighting many of these same points. Joseph DID carefully word his denials. He worded them in a way in which NOBODY could misconstrue them into him saying anything other than polygamy is an abomination and that he has only one wife. Somehow, we still have so many people like Brian Hales purposefully twisting his words and finding loopholes that don't exist. The section on marriage that was removed from the Doctrine and Covenants and the letter to the relief society should be read from the pulpit in every LDS church.
@BFGalbraith74
2 ай бұрын
I wouldn't mind seeing that paper!
@freesaints
2 ай бұрын
I would like to see the paper as well.
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
The thing that you Joseph Smith polygamy deniers don't seem to grasp is that Smith denied polygamy BECAUSE it was illegal and also violated the D&C Article On Marriage. Smith had all of his plural marriage initiates swear vows of secrecy. The vows of secrecy that Mormons still take in the temple today are a vestige of those original 1842 oaths. "We hardly dared speak of it [i.e., plural marriage during Joseph Smith’s lifetime!. The very walls had ears. We spoke of it only in whispers." Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, 1898
@prezp00nage24
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Your source is more reliable how? Prove just one of Joseph’s supposed 30+ wives and I’ll concede. Where there is no smoke, there is no fire, no matter how many people say there is a fire.
@prezp00nage24
2 ай бұрын
I’m not sure if I’m ready to release it and expose myself quite yet. I’m working my way up in my area and laying low. Nothing in my paper is anything that I haven’t heard Michelle say before. Go watch her videos and there’s another channel called “I believe Joseph” that has some really good content that also covers the things in my paper. It’s a 14 page paper with citations that one day I’ll release, and potentially add to before I let it out. I’m a history teacher and I wrote it in proper chicago format.
@kathybence
2 ай бұрын
You guys are the antidote to the church's plural marriage narrative. I don't know how anyone with a conscience can read the polygamy essays (and anything else that uses that history) and not see Joseph as a lying, adulterous pedophile. This was especially worthwhile following the episode with the polygamy supporter.
@teancumhorning4317
2 ай бұрын
I’ve found that a lot of people who push for polygamy at least in a historical standpoint. Do acknowledge when pushed upon the point that Joseph would have to be a pervert in all manners of speaking.
@jrtodd-br4zc
2 ай бұрын
The reason lying and polygamy can’t be separated, as Michelle correctly pointed out, is because the god of polygamy and the father of lies are the same being.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
So well said!
@marilynwilliams7556
2 ай бұрын
Great point. So true!
@MichaelEllisYT
2 ай бұрын
If you believe that then you have to throw out the entire Bible. Because the God of polygyny is the source of the Commandments therein and the father of Christ.
@jacquelinesmith1509
2 ай бұрын
What are you referring to? God allows agency. @@MichaelEllisYT
@MichaelEllisYT
2 ай бұрын
@@jacquelinesmith1509 The OP says that father of lies is the same god that is the god of polygamy. But the God of polygyny is also the same God of the Old and New Testaments. So if you are going to equate the two then you must not believe in the Bible at all.
@Chet-hv4po
2 ай бұрын
I expect Brian would explain the 13th article of faith as a spelling error-“We believe in being chased.”
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
His argument would be... we believe we should chase many women🤣🤣
@stevedavis1316
2 ай бұрын
Michelle, great episode! Jeremy and Whitney know their stuff! I’ll give a shout out for Whitney’s book, it is awesome and I highly recommend it! Having studied this topic for years, you do have to ask yourself why is all the information that clears Joseph of polygamy not available and used by the LDS church and Bryan? I think the answer is obvious, IT DOES NOT conform with the narrative! This “Lying for the Lord” about the topic of polygamy and spiritual wivery began so long ago! Most members of the church just believe what they’ve been told, or, if you’re a new member it’s not even brought up! The practice of polygamy is truly a great deception and I’m so glad that you are bringing it to light! Light is the greatest disinfectant! On the contrary, Bryan and the LDS church now have an opportunity to repent, will they?
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
"Having studied this topic for years, you do have to ask yourself why is all the information that clears Joseph of polygamy not available and used by the LDS church and Bryan? I think the answer is obvious, IT DOES NOT conform with the narrative!" Nope, it's because it's bogus. The evidence that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism is clear and exhaustive. The fact that people such as Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, and Whitney Hornung refuse to accept the historical evidence doesn't alter the facts. Those people constantly misstate facts and attack the character or motives of everyone who said that they were taught plural marriage directly by Joseph or Hyrum Smith. Every legitimate, professional historian who has published on the issue of Mormon polygamy beginning with Fawn Brodie 80 years ago concurs that Joseph Smith started it. People like Michelle, Jeremy, and Whitney are not legitimate historians; they are propagandists/conspiracy theorists. Their assertions are similar to arguments used by, to give an example, flat-earth believers. Here is what professional historian Gary Bergara wrote on this issue: "From Joseph Smith’s first documented plural marriage in 1841 until his death more than three years later, some twenty-eight men and 106 women (as civil and plural wives) entered the prophet’s order of celestial matrimony.[1] Given the secrecy surrounding Smith’s controversial (and illegal) practice, the exact number of these earliest polygamists may never be known. However, enough information in the form of diaries, letters, auto biographies, reminiscences, affidavits, statements, and family histories has accumulated since the early 1840s-coupled with reasonable inferences and educated guesses-to enable a compelling, albeit tentative, identification.[2] "Based on the most convincing data presently available,[3] the following men either definitely or probably married additional wives with Joseph Smith’s permission prior to his death on June 27, 1844: James Adams, Ezra T. Benson, Reynolds Cahoon, William Clayton, Joseph W. Coolidge, Howard Egan, William Felshaw, William D. Huntington, Orson Hyde, Joseph A. Kelting, Heber C. Kimball, Vinson Knight, Isaac Morley, Joseph Bates Noble, John E. Page, Parley P. Pratt, Willard Richards, Hyrum Smith, John Smith, Joseph Smith, William Smith, Erastus Snow, John Taylor, Theodore Turley, Lyman Wight, Edwin D. Woolley, Brigham Young, and Lorenzo Dow Young. While the evidence in a few cases (i.e., Coolidge, Felshaw, Kelting, Page, and Wight) for an early plural marriage is circumstantial and conjectural, these twenty-eight men and their wives comprise the most likely candidates for membership in Joseph Smith’s inner circle of plural marriage participants." "The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six.[" ---"Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844", Gary James Bergera
@stevedavis1316
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Sorry, don’t buy it! Why don’t you do what Joseph and Hyrum recommend, read the scriptures and let that be your guide? Try Book of Mormon Jacob Chapter 1-3. Ask these questions: where did Jacob get his message? What was worse than pride? If you can’t find the answers in these 3 chapters, then all the non contemporary information you’ve provided is nonsense.
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
@@stevedavis1316 " Sorry, don’t buy it!" Of course you don't buy it, because you are a deluded fanatical worshipper of Joseph Smith, as are Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, and Whitney Horning. Your flawed methodology for learning the facts about polygamy cannot magically override the testimony of more than 100 people who stated that they learned about polygamy directly from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. Instead of recommending that I read from the fraudulent book that Joseph Smith wrote, I suggest that you read the actual facts of history. When you wrote that "all the non contemporary information you've provided is nonsense," you are not aware that a mountain of documentation was published DURING JOSEPH SMITH'S LIFETIME which makes it unmistakably clear that he originated and practiced polygamy. So you are not even informed enough on this subject to state any opinions on it. Joseph Smith's denials of polygamy were the immediate cause of his death. So to opine that he had nothing to do with polygamy is to ignore the basic facts of history.
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
@@stevedavis1316 LOL. Your opinions on this issue are based on emotionalism, not facts. The historical documentation I posted here is the FACTS. On August 12, 1843, Hyrum Smith presented the revelation on celestial marriage before the Nauvoo High Council to seek their vote to sustain it as church doctrine. Three men in that meeting opposed the proposal. Six men in that meeting swore legal affidavits stating that the document that Hyrum introduced is the same text as is found in D&C 132 today. Joseph and Hyrum Smith steadfastly denied teaching or practicing polygamy because it was against the law of the land and the published doctrine of the church. More than 100 people in Nauvoo said that they learned of polygamy directly from Joseph or Hyrum. Not a single person said that Brigham Young or anyone else other than Joseph originated polygamy. That is why every professional, legitimate historian accepts that as the facts. The people who are trying to tell you that Joseph and Hyrum Smith had nothing to do with polygamy are conspiracy theorists and Joseph Smith worshippers who refuse to accept that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite.
@ronaldlowrey8817
2 ай бұрын
Excellent!! Jeremy, I hope that you are writing a book, documenting your research.
@jessea2871
2 ай бұрын
Just like the Tanners who were saying this exact thing 50 years ago.
@jeffreymax1822
2 ай бұрын
Thank you Michelle! In response to Sister Haney: So Joseph Smith is a Korihor? On Jun 4 1834 he said: "We arrived this morning on the banks of the Mississippi... we the eastern part of the state of Ohio... wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls and bones, as proof of its divine authenticity." (Signed) Joseph Smith Joseph Smith said it happened in North America so is he wrong? Wayne May based his research on this statement and the Book of Mormon evidence he found is amazing.
@stefanylclark7419
2 ай бұрын
There is so much evidence of the Book of Mormon happening in the heartland of America,(precisely where Joseph said it happened) including the words of the Book of Mormon itself and the exact location of the temple in Zarahemla can be seen from google earth directly west across the river from the Nauvoo temple! So much evidence, from academic, scientific community of non-members, it's impossible to prove that it didn't happen here. Well, I guess you can call me Korihor too!
@joseph_nelson_esq
2 ай бұрын
Joseph and Hyrum’s actual words don’t fit the church’s narrative, as told by Brian C Hales. So, something has to be done. But what? I got it. Let’s say Joseph and Hyrum lied. Okay, but lying is bad. Hmmm. Then we don’t call it lying. Instead, let’s rebrand it as “carefully worded denials.” But only a moron would buy into that. Exactly. 😂
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
OF COURSE Joseph and Hyrum lied about polygamy. Joseph instituted his plural marriage/spiritual wifery practice in secret because it was against the laws of the land and the rules of the church. Joseph had his inititiates swear oaths of secrecy. The secret temple oaths of today are a vestige of those original 1842 oaths. After Joseph's and Hyrum's deaths, Joseph's long-time close associate Sidney Rigdon commented on the secrecy and deceit which their polygamy practice necessitated: "On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---March 15, 1845. "They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---June, 1846. LDS historian Richard van Wagoner noted the culture of deceit and hypocrisy employed to keep polygamy secret: "Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage..... "The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals. Stephen Markham, a close friend of Smith, certified.....that he saw Nancy Rigdon in a compromising situation with Bennett....George W. Robinson, on Nancy's behalf, countered with a sworn statement on 3 September 1842 that Markham was lying.....Sidney Rigdon also swore out a refutation and employed an attorney to sue Markham..... "After Joseph Smith's death in 1844, Orson Hyde attempted to further blacken Nancy Rigdon's character in order to tarnish her father's claim to church leadership. Her conduct was 'notorious in this city,' Hyde charged; she was 'regarded generally, little, if any better, than a public prostitute.' "---"Mormon Polygamy: A History," pp. 38-39.) So, all of the attacks on the character of people who tried to expose polygamy, such as John C. Bennett, William Law, Austin Cowles, Joseph H. Jackson, and others, were really just false accusations concocted to try to keep polygamy secret. But all of those efforts backfired when Joseph Smith ordered the "Nauvoo Expositor" printing press destroyed on June 10, 1844.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
Sadly, yes. In fact, ped0philia, whoredoms, infidelity, lying, breaking every commandment are ALL OKAY as long as God's name is used to justify it. As long as someone says it was commanded of God human sacrifice is A-OK 👌
@cherylclute4981
2 ай бұрын
I love these podcasts with you three…and appreciate the research you all do seeking for truth so you can share the truth with others! ❤❤❤
@austeneer
2 ай бұрын
The Woman’s Conference presentation is quite ironic because Brigham Young taught that the Book of Mormon took place in North America.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
I'm waiting for the church to repent for polygamy and discard DnC132 loudly and proudly during GC. Not gonna happen. Too busy counting money and rebranding Mormonism.
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
I'm starting to wonder if you should watch conference for me and just let me know. Sigh.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@@MommaCrissa I'm a neverMo. I have watched the last 20 weekends hoping to hear a revelation. Still waiting for anything profound.
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
@@sdfotodudeDedication. Do you read the BofM or do you see it as fiction?
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@@MommaCrissa yes I have read it a couple of times and I am absolutely convinced that it is fiction because there is absolutely zero evidence for its historicity. It's basically just a really long boring racist series of Pride Cycles. I did not expect the plot twist of all the good guys dying in the end however. What is your best bit of evidence that it is true. Remember feelings aren't evidence of anything
@MostBoringNameEver
2 ай бұрын
@@sdfotodudethis might be a bit random but im curious if you have ever heard of the mudflood?
@jrtodd-br4zc
2 ай бұрын
Michelle I loved you pointed out Korihors primary role was he opposed the scriptures. So I’d like to make a comment in support of the scriptures so I can’t be lumped in as a “Korihor” by the lds church apparently just because I believe Joseph told the truth and knew what he was talking about when he repeatedly and unequivocally denounced polygamy. “ I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse [Epistle of Jacob 1:2], which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did. For how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, would never know, for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs - that is, ask of God. I at last came to the determination to ask of God, concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally and not upbraid, I might venture. So in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties, I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.” Joseph uses the word “wisdom” 5 times in that carefully and specifically purposed account of the “first vision”. This account (at least the words) survived the corruption of traitors who tried to use Joseph to justify their lusts. But It would appear they missed the most glaring defense of monogamy Joseph ever penned. Its apparently true that darkness really cannot comprehend the light. The first artistic depiction of the first vision wasn’t publicly known until 1873. That depiction is the basis for all later depictions. That first rendering either misunderstood or completely ignored (or both) Joseph Smith and the scriptures. “This is my beloved Son, hear Him” Wisdom indeed if I’ve ever heard any.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
Thank you for sharing that🙏😇. I needed that reminder
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
👏
@ronaldlowrey8817
2 ай бұрын
Michelle, one of your best yet !! Keep the faith 🙏🙏
@kellywilson8322
2 ай бұрын
I look forward to your podcast all week long. I can't watch any that have people who still want to believe Joseph committed Polyg. I'm so happy this one had Jeremy and Whitney. They are actual truth seekers! Modern-day heroes ❤❤❤
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
Same😢. I gave up so many come follow me channels as soon as they got to the book of Jacob and instead of teaching what Jacob was teaching, they went off on polygamy and gave that lesson instead. Weird that so many channels used the very lesson to warn of such practices to teach those practices.
@davidtorbenson4686
2 ай бұрын
Easy for the church to deny the "Adam/God" theory - no real implications to the pioneer heritage or current members- however, acknowledging that polygamy was started by Brigham Young or acknowledging as a mistake would have HUGE implications to the pioneer heritage of many members and leaders in the church
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
The church hasn't denied that Brigham Young taught the Adam-God theory. In fact, Bruce R. McConkie stated that Young did indeed teach it, and that it was wrong. Spencer W. Kimball also said it was false doctrine.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
All you need to do is realize that Michelle has over a 100,000 followers that believe in her fictional, sugar-coated version of Joseph Smith
@davidtorbenson4686
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Thanks - your wording is better than mine... "Easy for the church to disavow the Adam/God theory" - is what I should have communicated....
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
hmm. Perhaps that is something!
@jessea2871
2 ай бұрын
Adam/God doctrine not theory.
@joyfulsurety
2 ай бұрын
Yes, WWE have to separate Joseph and Brigham and realize Brigham was never supposed to be the leader of the Church! And when they went West, they rebaptized everyone and reordained, taking everyone away from the baptism and ordination of Joseph!
@jessea2871
2 ай бұрын
does that mean the church today doesn't have the priesthood and authority from God?
@rxrehab6984
2 ай бұрын
The first presidency of polygamy truthers!
@MormonLutherFiveSolas
2 ай бұрын
Or the LDS version of the Protestant Reformers in Protest of Vatican Square’s marriage to Babylon.
@JacobIsBell
2 ай бұрын
00:21:00 Hinckley “I believe it is not doctrinal.” That was on Larry King Live, not 60 minutes.
@@veritas9243 do you mean false prophet brimstone Brigham?
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
Hinckley's actual remark was "I condemn it yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal." Hinckley was just acknowledging the 1890 Manifesto which ended the PRACTICE of polygamy. So, when you leave out Hinckley's words "as a practice", you are being dishonest. Hinckley condemned the PRACTICE because a) the federal government had made it illegal b) the LDS church wants to portray its image as being law-abiding c) the LDS church desperately wants to distinguish itselfr from the tens of thousands of current-day fundamentalist polygamists. OF COURSE plural marriage is still doctrinal, because it is still in the Mormon canon of scripture.
@JacobIsBell
2 ай бұрын
FIRST! I WIN!
@bookmedia67
2 ай бұрын
Noice. Loved your debate.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
Dang it I sent you a gift card for $10 worth of thoughts and prayers. Apparently Michelle must have deleted it
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
Debate?? Where? What'd I miss? I must know now!!🙏🙏
@Esty120
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 It was on Ward Radio a few weeks ago.
@Chet-hv4po
2 ай бұрын
No one who isn’t already on our side of this issue would say you won the debate. You had all the advantage of being on the side of truth and still got destroyed by Hansen, because you were completely undisciplined, disorganized, and unconvincing.
@spencerall
2 ай бұрын
Oddly, it seems that the truth of the principle of polygamy is based on whether Joseph Smith taught or practiced it. Frankly, I don’t care if he did or didn’t. If he didn’t, great! If he did, he sinned and hopefully repented. We are all sinners in need of forgiveness. Our faith must be in Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith. The Church has a responsibility to follow and teach the plain and precious truths of the scriptures by completely rejecting false doctrines like polygamy rather than trying to justify the “modern prophet’s” philosophies and behavior.
@MormonLutherFiveSolas
2 ай бұрын
Mosiah 1: 5-6. Alma17: 9. Alma18: 36-39. Alma 21 :17. Alma 24:7.
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
Problem is, if Smith taught and practiced polygamy, he did so under the "authority" of a bogus "revelation from God." And if Smith concocted that "revelation", to gain sexuall access to multiple women, every other alleged "revelation's" authenticity must be questioned also.
@MichaelEllisYT
2 ай бұрын
Same view except the opposite. If a lives it fine. If he taught against it he was wrong. Sin is determined by God's Torah. And Torah approves polygyny.
@spencerall
2 ай бұрын
@@MormonLutherFiveSolas Great scriptures to warn against the false traditions of our fathers.
@spencerall
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Sure. Question everything. That doesn’t mean to simply dismiss. I have found the sweater unravels to around 1833-ish. The witness of David Whitmer’s book, “An address to all believers in Christ” is as good a glimpse into the early church and the role of Joseph. I highly recommend reading it. I also highly recommend not casting off faith in the Book of Mormon, but if you do be very careful not to continue down the slippery slope toward casting it all off. Atheism is a lonely place and only one step away from nihilism.
@BFGalbraith74
2 ай бұрын
Wilford Woodruff happily said "why" polygamy was being cancelled. Makes no sense for not saying "why" it started.
@joyfulsurety
2 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for exposing these truths!
@andreab7246
2 ай бұрын
Great job, guys! These are my favorite episodes. I wonder - if Joseph really was against polygamy, how would we know? What more could he have done to make that known? It’s almost like he actually WAS against it!
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
This entire issue can be resolved by simply admitting that Joseph Smith was a liar.
@OBeWiser
2 ай бұрын
Well you can say for certain that if he didn’t oppose it, he was unmistakably a complete failure at it. Those are the only possible conclusions.
@Heartsinmelody
2 ай бұрын
Great discussion. Thank you all!
@OMNWeak
2 ай бұрын
Amazing history that has been forgotten for far too long. This background completely destroys so many lies that the polygamy apologists have been pushing for far too long. Thank you sincerely for continuing these interviews. I have learned and still keep learning so much regarding the Restoration history.
@nostoppingit7243
2 ай бұрын
It wasn't forgotten, the "historians" just left it out of their narrative.
@nostoppingit7243
2 ай бұрын
Whatever God commands is right? True, but if God were to command evil or to go against his own laws he would cease to be God. People ignore the fact that they can answer their own prayers and Satan can answer them as well so if your answer contradicts God's established word you know He isn't the source of your answer, period. The members believed God commanded them to kill the Baker-Fancher party, He Did Not!
@GaryLArnell
2 ай бұрын
Brilliant episode. Jeremy was on fire. Thank you!
@lindawambolt111
2 ай бұрын
We are taught that God himself would cease to be God if he lied. I believe that is why we needed a Savior in the first place. I find it interesting that a God that himself is bound by truth would find it acceptable for his prophet to lie for him. The way I see it is that if God is accepting of that lie, he is also culpable in the lie and would cease to be God. Since the world is still spinning, I doubt that lying for the Lord is, has been, or ever will be accepted by him.
@Kristy_not_Kristine
2 ай бұрын
Wonderful work, you three!❤❤❤
@JacobIsBell
2 ай бұрын
“ yes, Joseph condemned murder. But he never condemned celestial blood atonement.” Corporate apologist, Cryan B Fails
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
😂😂😂FAILS INDEED
@cameronsmith5786
2 ай бұрын
@@JacobIsBell You obviously don’t know very much about the teachings of Jesus Christ of Joseph Smith. I bet you would stone Joseph Smith if he were alive today ( by the way he isn’t alive despite what Phil Davis told you). Joseph Smith taught: “I [am] opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.” - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 296, 1949
@ashleywawro8644
2 ай бұрын
@@cameronsmith5786but this history of Joseph is edited by Brigham and the cronies…
@cameronsmith5786
2 ай бұрын
@@ashleywawro8644 no, it is not!
@OBeWiser
2 ай бұрын
Former Facebook fact-checker
@JacobIsBell
2 ай бұрын
I don’t know of a single time Joseph Smith is quoted as using the phrase “unauthorized polygamy“ or “authorized polygamy“. Do you guys know of a single time JS used either of those phrases?
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
Joseph Smith referred to his practice as "celestial marriage," "eternal marriage," "plural wifery", or "spiritual wifery." He did not once say that there was an "authorized" or an "unauthorized" practice of multiple marriage. Joseph Smith denied teaching or practicing all forms of non-monogamous marriages, by any term. The idea that John C. Bennett practiced an unauthorized form called "spiritual wifery" was concocted by Mormon apologists to distinguish Smith's supposedly "revealed" and "proper" practice from Bennett's adultery. In actual fact, there was no difference between what the two men were doing. Bennett was on board with Smith's practice until Smith propositioned 19 year old Nancy Rigdon in the summer of 1842. Bennett was on good social terms with the Rigdon family, and he was miffed that Smith hit on Sidney's teenage daughter. THAT was what caused the split between Smith and Bennett---NOT that Bennett was doing anything that Smith wasn't doing. Bennett simply opposed whom Smith wanted to do it WITH. Sidney Rigdon's son John related the story in an affidavit late in his life: "John W. Rigdon, being duly sworn, says: I am the son of Sidney Rigdon, deceased. Was born at Mentor, in the State of Ohio, in the year 1830, and am now over seventy-five years of age. My father, Sidney Rigdon, joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that year, and was in 1833 ordained to be Joseph Smith's first counselor which position he held up to the time Joseph the Prophet was killed, at Carthage jail, in 1844... "As to the truth of the doctrine of polygamy being introduced by the Prophet Joseph Smith, deponent further says: Joseph Smith was absolute so far as spiritual figures were concerned, and no man would have dared to introduce the doctrine of polygamy or any other new doctrine into the "Mormon" Church at the city of Nauvoo during the years 1843 and 1844, or at any other place or time, without first obtaining Joseph Smith's consent. If anyone had dared to have done such a thing he would have been brought before the High Council and tried, and if proven against him, he would have been excommunicated from the Church, and that would have ended polygamy forever, and would also have ended the man who had dared to introduce such a doctrine without the consent of the Prophet Joseph. "And deponent further says: Joseph the Prophet, at the City of Nauvoo, Illinois, some time in the latter part of the year 1843, or the first part of the year 1844, made a proposition to my sister, Nancy Rigdon, to become his wife. It happened in this way: Nancy had gone to Church, meeting being held in a grove near the temple lot on which the "Mormons" were then erecting a temple, an old lady friend who lived alone invited her to go home with her, which Nancy did. When they got to the house and had taken their bonnets off, the old lady began to talk to her about the new doctrine of polygamy which was then being taught, telling Nancy, during the conversation, that it was a surprise to her when she first heard it, but that she had since come to believe it to be true. While they were talking Joseph Smith the Prophet came into the house, and joined them, and the old lady immediately left the room. It was then that Joseph made the proposal of marriage to my sister. Nancy flatly refused him, saying if she ever got married she would marry a single man or none at all, and thereupon took her bonnet and went home, leaving Joseph at the old lady's house. Nancy told father and mother of it. The story got out and it became the talk of the town that Joseph had made a proposition to Nancy Rigdon to become his wife, and that she refused him. A few days after the occurrence Joseph Smith came to my father's house and talked the matter over with the family, my sister, Mrs. Athalia Robinson also being present, who is now alive. The feelings manifested by our family on this occasion were anything but brotherly or sisterly, more especially on the part of Nancy, as she felt that she had been insulted. A day or two later Joseph Smith returned to my father's house, when matters were satisfactorily adjusted between them, and there the matter ended." The "old lady friend" who groomed Nancy to prepare her for Joseph's proposition was Marinda Hyde, the wife of apostle Orson Hyde. Marinda had accepted the doctrine, and had plural married Joseph Smith just a couple of months earlier. She was one of several women who acted as "groomers" to prep younger women for Joseph's propositions.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521You really should try watching an episode(no you don't) where they show the actual evidence. I'm not surprised you choose to believe the men that change doctrine as you feel it'll benefit you🙄. Hales is probably you're hero since you think alike and that man has not lifted a single finger in research. He's a lazy, armchair, imaginative, wishful thinking nutcase. The only men who support such garbage are abusive men looking for a w h o r e house. Good luck with that
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521Everything you said in your comment was covered in the video. Every single thing. Stop being afraid to learn something. From Joseph's own mouth... Polygamy, spiritual wifery, celestial plural marriage were ALL rebuked by Joseph. It's a hard truth for you men but it is what it is
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 LOL. And the thing you cannot get through your thick skull is that Joseph Smith was a liar. For the umpteenth time: "Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage..... "The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals. Stephen Markham, a close friend of Smith, certified.....that he saw Nancy Rigdon in a compromising situation with Bennett....George W. Robinson, on Nancy's behalf, countered with a sworn statement on 3 September 1842 that Markham was lying.....Sidney Rigdon also swore out a refutation and employed an attorney to sue Markham..... "After Joseph Smith's death in 1844, Orson Hyde attempted to further blacken Nancy Rigdon's character in order to tarnish her father's claim to church leadership. Her conduct was 'notorious in this city,' Hyde charged; she was 'regarded generally, little, if any better, than a public prostitute.' " ("Mormon Polygamy: A History, Richard van Wagoner, pp. 38-39.)
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521Thank you...I do have a thick skull but that's funny considering you make the same comment multiple times too multiple people😅. What I'm saying is try watching just one episode. Your comments are based on the narrative we've heard all our lives and once believed ourselves. Try temple lot case or Lucy Smith's book( not the one Brigham altered) and open your heart and mind a little🤷♀️. Naturally you have the right the to believe what you desire but with new evidence such as the Joseph Smith papers at least allow others to believe what we will. Especially since we're seeing the evidence and you're trying to dispute you won't even look at. Brigham and the early leaders could not legally be married to more than one wife at a time so they called them spiritual wives, spiritual wifery is what it was called during that time period. No one can change a sin or crime by changing its name or title. Grown adults should know that😅.
@Seek_Ye_Shall_Find
2 ай бұрын
Love the dream team!!!!!!
@MormonLutherFiveSolas
2 ай бұрын
Sister Haynie is a Zelph Denier! Booo!!! So is she a Joseph Smith Denier? I’ll Thank you! 😂😂😂😂
@ahp9402
2 ай бұрын
Love this dream team together ❤ Such common sense is always put forth. I heard all 3 of you spoke at the top of the mountains conference last week. I wish they would have recorded you all so I could have watched it! I'm sure it was great.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
They did record it. I believe it will be released this week 🙂
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
Do we know who all the people were in the choir? We need to track down all the journals.
@jrtodd-br4zc
2 ай бұрын
28:50 Clinging to their throne of lies and sand
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
Dang, I wanted to click like, but I realize I already did.😅
@Kait272
2 ай бұрын
what a great presentation. it should be cut into shorts!
@skier39
2 ай бұрын
Great discussion from a great panel. It makes me think that there is nothing that Joseph Smith could have done or said that would dissuade any polygamist or polygamist sympathizer from claiming that he was a polygamist! Russ Tolley
@KellyKoerper
2 ай бұрын
Jeremy is one of the Three Nephites.
@Eman_ly
2 ай бұрын
I don’t believe Joseph practiced polygamy, but I also don’t believe the Book of Mormon took place in New York. I’m not sure why people are making comparisons between the two, as they are completely different things. Joseph several times published in the Times and Seasons that he believed it may have happened in Central America. It’s clear it was never revealed to him where the Book of Mormon occurred which means we are left to our own devices to study it and figure it out ourselves.
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
Can you show the articles in the times and seasons that you're referring to?
@Eman_ly
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 Times and Seasons, 1 October 1842. Also the September 15, 1842 Times and Seasons.
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
@@Eman_ly apparently the authorship of those articles is somewhat controversial.
@Eman_ly
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 No they aren’t. They’re only controversial to those who for some reason think the Book of Mormon happened in New York.
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
@@Eman_ly I'm not sure Joseph's head was in that space at that time: "Joseph tentatively came out of hiding at the end of September, only to learn, again, that his hopes were premature. On September 19, 1842, after seven weeks of failure on the part of officers from both Missouri and Illinois to capture Joseph themselves, Missouri governor Thomas Reynolds offered a reward of three hundred dollars to anyone who could capture either Joseph or Orrin Porter Rockwell, and six hundred dollars for the capture of both.[50] Not to be outdone, Illinois governor Thomas Carlin issued a “Proclamation” the following day, September 20, 1842, offering a reward of two hundred dollars “to any person or persons, for the apprehension and delivery” of Joseph or Rockwell to the authorities.[51] News of the rewards reached Nauvoo on October 2, and it was followed five days later by a report that “many of the Missourians were coming to unite with the Militia of this State [Illinois], voluntarily and at their own expense” to search Nauvoo if Joseph was not arrested elsewhere."
@krishutch23
2 ай бұрын
Anyone have a link to the Claire Haynie talk?
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
I don't think they were recorded. I only have pictures from people who attended.
@krishutch23
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStonethank you! It’s such an extreme and strange stance that I wanted to see it for myself.
@westonplayz360
2 ай бұрын
You’re right they do not record the women’s conference talks, but is there any more info available from the person who took the picture? I’m dying to know more context of the talk because that is such an incredibly hurtful thing for the speaker to say.
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
35:15 😅
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
Sick burn🔥😅
@MormonLutherFiveSolas
2 ай бұрын
1:41:00 “BuuRyan”. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
107:15... Michelle, how shall we have the seal of God or covenant with him if the temple is corrupted? (Pay to get in for salvation, etc., etc.) Any idea besides making the covenant on our own with our spouse and God directly?
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
It is important to remember that Abraham lived in a way that caused God to extend a covenant to him. 2nd Nephi 31-32 is your guide.
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 Thank you!
@cdmbcgm
2 ай бұрын
chief Midegah says they have passed down the same ordances we have in the temple. How did Brigham Young create it when Native Americans had them before Brigham wrote them down? The temple ordances are nor corrupt and has been in existence long before Brigham was alive. Why is tribulation going to start in his organization? Because many have corrupted the everlasting covenants (not the leaders). D&C 25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. Who is his house? The temple. Who blasphemed against him. Those teaching against the Temple.
@hyrumwebb3830
2 ай бұрын
The scary thing is I think Michelle and her guests have shown why I have seen online people comparing Joseph Smith to Mohammed.
@wtswingle
2 ай бұрын
Can someone share a link to the BYU Korihor talk? Thanks!
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
I don't think they were recorded. I only have pictures from people who attended.
@cameronsmith5786
2 ай бұрын
Michelle- Korihor taught the Nephites not to believe in Jesus Christ by calling their temple ordinances false traditions. See Alma 30:23 “And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.” That reminds me of your temple episodes where you called our ordinances “false traditions” just like Korihor.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
Alma 20:23 Now the king, fearing he should lose his life, said: If thou wilt spare me I will grant unto thee whatsoever thou wilt ask, even to half of the kingdom Want to try again?
@Esty120
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone Bless you Michelle, what you put up with!! Praying you’ll be strengthened and surrounded by angels! ❤
@GaryLArnell
2 ай бұрын
@cameronsmith5786 (aka Kim), what is your take on Joseph's "carefully worded denials" as described in this episode?
@cameronsmith5786
2 ай бұрын
@@GaryLArnell oh -you got me!!! I was hoping you wouldn’t know it was me even though MY PICTURE in on the account. ( spouses can share Google accounts you should try it sometime it is great) I think it’s so funny how you came here to change the subject so I wouldn’t point the similarities between Michelle and Korihor which are blatantly obvious . But, hey since think Denver Snuffer’s two leading members ( Whitney and Jermey) are more credible than actual prophets, I guess you will do and say anything to protect your preferred leaders. I have addressed all of the alleged “carefully worded denials”. I don’t think they are carefully worded denials. You will not find a SINGLE denial where Joseph Smith doesn’t do one of two things. First, Joseph Smith always preferences all of his denials with describing John C Bennett’s spiritual wife whoredoms. People like Michelle always take these quotes and remove them from their proper context and never divulge the circumstances under which they were said. These alleged “public denials” were written into the history by Brigham Young. You don’t do that if this are trying to craft a false narrative. Secondly, he denounced the right of elders of the Church on missions from teaching polygamy. They were never instructed on the principle and didn’t have the right or authority to teach to early converts the higher doctrines. Joseph Smith even threatens to excommunicate Hyrum Smith for teaching polygamyto whom he wasn’t authorized to teach it. It is exactly how Eliza R Snow decribed the “denials” “At the time the sisters of the Relief Society signed our article, I was married to the prophet Joseph Smith. we made no allusion to any other system of marriage than Bennett’s, his was prostitution, and it was truly his, and he succeeded in pandering his course on the credulity of the unsuspecting by making them believe that he was thus authorized by the Prophet. In those articles there is no reference to divine plural marriage. We aimed to put down its opposite.” William Clayton also said: "When assailed by their enemies and accused of practicing things which were really not countenanced in the Church, they were justified in denying those imputations and at the same time avoiding the avowal of such doctrine as were not yet intended for the world. Polygamy in the ordinary and Asiatic sense of the term, never was and is not now a tenet of the Latter-day Saints. That which Joseph and Hyrum denounced... was altogether different to the order of celestial marriage including a plurality of wives... Joseph and Hyrum were consistent in their action against the false doctrines of polygamy and spiritual wifeism, instigated by the devil and advocated by men who did not comprehend sound doctrine nor the purity of the celestial marriage which God revealed for the holiest of purposes"
@cameronsmith5786
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone Alma 30:23 says “And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.” Korihor taught the Nephites not to believe in Jesus Christ by getting them to reject their temple ordinances by calling them “false traditions” Your temple podcast also call our temple ordinances “false traditions” just like Korihor.
@Sayheybrother8
2 ай бұрын
Michelle, what are your thoughts on a primary source in my family records that documents Joseph asking Rachael Ridgeway Ivins to marry him? She actually turned down the offer and even left Nauvoo where she’d been living. In 1852 she went to salt lake and before she Brigham married her to Jedediah Grant BY sealed her to JS for eternity and Grant for time because they were all aware of her turning Joseph down while in Nauvoo.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
Interesting. I would love to see it. Do you know what year it was written?
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
This is from the BYU Library---Special Collections: "Rachel Ivins Grant (1821-1909) was a leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, wife, and mother in Utah. "Rachel Ivins was born in March 9, 1821 in Hornerstown, New Jersey, to Caleb Ivins and Edith Ridgeway. While Rachel's parents were Quakers, she sought out different religions. Rachel soon met missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and, after some time, joined the Church. "Rachel moved to Nauvoo, Illinois in 1842 to be closer to the happenings of the LDS Church. However, two years later, 1844, Rachel left Illinois and went back to New Jersey after she began to have concerns about plural marriage. These concerns did not last too long because Rachel traveled to Utah with her relatives in 1853 to be with fellow Saints. "In 1855, Rachel became "eternally sealed" to the Prophet Joseph Smith before becoming Jedediah Morgan Grant's seventh wife on November 29, 1855 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Rachel and Jedediah had one son--Heber Jeddy Grant (1856-1945)." End quote. Note that Rachel moved from Nauvoo in 1844 "because she began to have concerns about plural marriage." Of course, Joseph Smith was still church president until June 27, 1844. However, she later moved to Utah, accepted plural marriage, and was sealed "for eternity" to Joseph Smith in 1855. If Joseph Smith had not been polygamy's originator, Rachel would not have bothered to be sealed to him, and the 1855-era church leaders (Brigham Young, Grant, etc.) would not have bothered to allow her to be sealed to the late Joseph Smith. An interesting side note from the BYU article is: "Rachel and Jedediah had one son--Heber Jeddy Grant (1856-1945). Jedediah died nine days after the birth of his son. "On February 17, 1858, Rachel, and the rest of the sister-wives, married Jedediah's brother, George Grant. This marriage was dissolved two years later due to George's drunkenness." So, future church president Heber J. Grant's stepfather was a drunkard whom his mother divorced when he was just two years old. I don't find that Rachel remarried after that, so apparently Heber was raised by a single mother.
@Sayheybrother8
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 she didn’t have a choice at the sealing. Brigham Young did it to her at the alter without consulting with her. He said Joseph had a claim on her and so he would seal her to Joseph. Her journal says that she told Joseph no and she told her family including her uncles.
@Sayheybrother8
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 she even quit going to church for a few years because it broke her heart that he proposed to her. She’s one of two or three women who denied his proposals.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521you know better than to provide contemporaneous evidence that is going to harsh Michelle's mellow. She prefers an echo chamber of myopic selective reasoning
@SirKn1ght47
2 ай бұрын
On the topic of lying: In the book of Abraham it’s shown that God told Abraham directly to say Sarah was his sister. I’ve heard that is technically correct since they were sort of related, but does that technicality count as a lie? And if so, what does it mean that God commanded it? Secondly, that trope of lying when the Nazis come knocking and looking for people does theoretically come into conflict with that “thrust down to hell” verse. So not in application to polygamy, but just on its own, does that have the same weight as lying for one’s own benefit?
@defythegrid9577
2 ай бұрын
I'm trying to find the Claire Haney speech, is there a link?
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
I don't think they were recorded. I only have pictures from people who attended.
@fotochikyo
2 ай бұрын
38:35 what do you mean by you can maybe extend that to babies jeremy? I'm confused
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
If I remember correctly, he's talking about Brigham's justification for m u rd e r such as the mountain meadows massacre where children were k i ll ed. Brigham believed once you entered the temple, you can do no wrong except ki!! And even that, he found loopholes
@fotochikyo
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 oh that makes sense. Thanks. Been canning all day and my brain is fried
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
@@fotochikyoHappens to me too😅. I love canning! Only the best food right👌
@fotochikyo
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 yes!
@tammyrandall7793
2 ай бұрын
I don’t know if you will read this. I haven’t really watched your channel, you have probably answered this. Is your premise that those women who say they were married to Joseph Smith were lying. So my fourth great aunt was lying when she said she was married to Joseph Smith. Also when my third great grandfather copied section 132 which he gave to Brigham Young at winter quarters that he helped Brigham young change what it said. He wrote about Joseph Smith telling him about celestial marriage and Joseph Smith having other wives that is written in his autobiography are you saying that is a lie also. Can you please explain this to me. My great grandmother who was proud of this fact, was she lied to by her mother about her grandfather. Is that what you’re saying?
@tammyrandall7793
2 ай бұрын
I’m sorry I sound like I’m attacking but this is my family.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
My children are related to Joseph smith by some marriage as well. However, Joseph swore he never had more than one wife, never married no teen, never lied for the lord and never taught anything in secret and that grievous sin was not in his nature. So, to believe one, means the other is the lie...ya know? I personally believe Joseph told the truth. Why? The man had many divine visits from angels helping him with the great task of being a prophet. The angel Moroni said his name would be known around the world for both good and evil as members have most definitely helped Brigham carry out the evil in spreading those lies. Lucy Smith, Hyrum Smith, Joseph and Emma Smith as well as their children and close honest friends swore before the grave that no such teaching was ever taught or practiced by the prophet. I too have so called relatives claiming such stories but When the "wives" of Joseph were asked to tell about their marriages to Joseph concerning the temple lot case before a judge, they couldn't remember where he lived, when the wedding took place, what the inside of his home looked like, what date the event took place. Needless to say... to this day, we do not own the temple lot because no one was ever able to prove Joseph had more wives even in "secret" Naturally, it's so epic to look into our history and see where we fit especially when Joseph is concerned. But what will we tell Joseph if he says when we see him.... " why did you believe I did such thing when I repeatedly said I didn't?". It's up to you what you do with information given but it's always good to be fair😇🙏😇🙏
@tammyrandall7793
2 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 I don’t understand…it’s ok not to believe Brigham Young . Won’t we have to do the same thing when we speak to him? Didn’t he receive spiritual messengers also? I don’t understand. So all those who lived polygamy during Brigham Young’s time were sinning under the consent of a prophet of God. That doesn’t make any sense. Does it?
@nostoppingit7243
2 ай бұрын
@@tammyrandall7793 Sadly the Utah pioneers have a history of lying and even promoted the mantra "lying for the Lord" We all have skeletons in our ancestral closet that we have to come to terms with. For what it is worth I believe the women were coerced or tricked into polygamy and later lied because their families and there ability to provide and care for their children were at stake. If Joseph Kingsbury is your third great grandfather then surely you know he refused to testify under oath in a court of law for fear of being charged with perjury. Why do that if his story about copying the revelation was true? Brigham Young was not called of God to lead the church. After Joseph's death the 12 were voted to lead the church by the members, the majority of whom had been converted by the 12. Brigham was made leader after they reached Utah and he continued telling the people he was only holding that place for Joseph's son. Brigham taught multiple false doctrines that have since been denounced by the church, his fruits were that of a false prophet. God does not lead people astray, men do. And sadly many were convinced that polygamy came from God and Joseph when the reality is it came from Brigham and Heber who had preached among the Cochranites (spiritual wifery) and who both recorded having revelations/visions whatever regarding polygamy while on their missions, long before Joseph allegedly introduced it to them.
@StompMom5
2 ай бұрын
@@tammyrandall7793One main reason we believe Joseph vs Brigham Young is Joseph does not have one child from his so called 40+ wives. Not one! Brigham on the other hand, had 57 children. DNA evidence speaks for itself. All the polygamist had many children with their many concubines but Joseph only had children with his *one* and *only* wife Emma. It's also true that Brigham was never put in his position by God. He took the position for power, money and s"×. If he were here today he'd be a registered s"× offender. But because he committed all his sins and crimes in the name of God, he could get away with anything and he did. I can only imagine that first meeting with God after he passed. I don't imagine things went well. Brigham asserted authority over God as in he took on that role. Joseph knew his reputation was going down because of false rumors. God told him that one day all kept secrets will be out in the open high on the rooftops. I believe that's what's going on now
@jaredvaughan1665
2 ай бұрын
You convinced me polygamy was never commanded of God. But the Nauvoo Expositor Affidavits convinced me Joseph dictated 132 and had plural wives. News flash: Joseph was not infallible.
@Niels89740
2 ай бұрын
Disagree with the comments on Philpot. I've listened to most his pod casts which he doesn't post himself so as not to immerse himself in priest craft. He speaks from scriptures and from words of modern prophets about preparation for 2nd coming which we are in no less.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
Have you heard his teachings on plural marriage? Have you heard him talk about his wife?
@Jjj53214
2 ай бұрын
Is there any evidence that John Bennett and Brigham Young were associates in the practice of spiritual wifery in Nauvoo. It seems I read somewhere that Bennett asked for Young’s help when Bennett was in bad graces with Smith.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
Yes, I remember that too! I don't have the source off the top of my head, but I remember reading it, and that's a really good point to bring it up in this discussion.
@Jjj53214
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone From Hyrum’s affidavit against Bennett’s crimes: “I was determined to prosecute him [Bennett], and bring him to justice.-Some person knowing my determination, having informed him of it, he sent to me Wm. Law and Brigham Young, to request an interview with me and to see if their could not be a recon- ciliation made. I told them I thought there could not be, his crimes were so henious; but told them I was willing to see him . . . .”
@nostoppingit7243
2 ай бұрын
@@Jjj53214 William Law and Brigham Young. Yes, this is amazing when considering the polygamy accusers biggest argument is that wording in D&C132 is found in the Expositor published by William Law who was also tight with Chauncey Higbee , another Expositor publisher, who was John C. Bennett's partner in crime when it came to spiritual wifery.
@Jjj53214
2 ай бұрын
@@nostoppingit7243 It would be a bombshell if a spiritual wifery correspondence involving Young, Law, and Bennett could be found. Law did admit to adultery, and I think he did admit to a transitory flirtation in spiritual wifery in either his diary or in an interview later in life.
@whatsup3270
2 ай бұрын
Martha Brotherton affidavit is about Brigham and Joseph and polygamy. It is odd that she claims to refuse to marry Brigham. Brigham sad horrible things about her but choose to marry her withOUT her consent. As for Bennett he seems to be avoiding marriage. Bennet is said to have been running from his marriage.
@RyanWimmer
2 ай бұрын
We all owe Michelle and her infinite wisdom a big thanks. For years John C. Bennett has been seen as a scoundrel for a century and a half. Due to the solid scholarship of Michelle Stone we can put this to rest. Bennett was accused of adultery in Nauvoo and even confessed to at sexual impropriety at least with 6 or 7 women. Using the stellar scholarship of Stone, we now know he never had illicit sex because he never sired any children, that is an “insurmountable” problem with maintaining this awful “dominate narrative.” John C. Bennett was definitely coerced into his confessions, we don’t have evidence of this but due to the stellar scholarship of self-proclaimed KZitem expert Michelle Stone we don’t need that kind of evidence. Furthermore, from the outstanding logic of Michelle we know that it is highly plausible Joseph Smith hired a John C. Bennett impersonator for the confessions. Furthermore, we know from the statistics of Michelle’s episode 77 there is no way Bennett could not have had children if he was really having illicit sex. We also know that physical evidence is more reliable than testimony, we can therefore conclude that Joseph Smith was falsely accusing John C. Bennet thanks to the logical reasoning of scholar Michelle Stone. Now that the Michelle has vindicated John C. Bennett we need to look at Brigham Young and the likely changed history that he had 55 wives. He only had children with 16 of them. If we plug this into the statistics from her episode 77 we know someone changed the history. But who did it? Joseph Smith III maybe? Only the wisdom of Michelle can uncover that for us.
@randyjordan5521
2 ай бұрын
Hmmm, my wife and I had sex hundreds of times during our child-bearing years, and we used no birth control, but we only had four kids. According to the expert Michelle Stone, that was not possible. Because according to the expert Michelle Stone, every single time a man and a woman have sex, she's supposed to get pregnant.
@nostoppingit7243
2 ай бұрын
Unlike Joseph, John C. Bennett was a physician and it is claimed he performed abortions. And since those who like to accuse Joseph of polygamy like affidavits so much then certainly you can't ignore the CONTEMPORANEOUS affidavits by women that Bennett and Higbee seduced. Not only that but it was CONTEMPORANEOUSLY proven that John C. Bennett had a wife whom he abandoned and told no one in Nauvoo about. That multiple people witnessed John C. Bennett's inappropriate behavior and that not only the church kicked him out and denounced him but the Masons did as well and banned him from being a Mason anywhere. They wouldn't do that simply on the word of some fringe religious leader. Nice try though.
@TaiHoo-c8h
2 ай бұрын
@@nostoppingit7243: That's the single stupidest thing I've ever read in my entire life. John C. Bennett kept a false set of minutes which barred him from the Ohio Grand Lodge, yet he was active in Illinois Masonry which enabled Grand Master Meredith Helm to issue working dispensations for two additional lodges in Nauvoo. Bennett was not barred from practicing Freemasonry in Illinois.
@RyanWimmer
2 ай бұрын
@@TaiHoo-c8h who are you responding to? I only see your comment.
@dinosaurparkandsuch6936
2 ай бұрын
@@nostoppingit7243multiple people witnessed Joseph’s inappropriate behavior too. Plus you need to watch Michelle’s episodes about the “insurmountable” problem of Joseph producing no children which works the exact same with Bennett, unless of course you have motivated reasoning. She says abortion was not an option due to how dangerous it was. Do you not trust the stellar research of Michelle Stone? Abortion wasn’t an option and statistically Bennett would have had to have children. Therefore we can confidently conclude that Joseph either coerced Bennett’s confessions or he used a Bennett impersonator. This is all in accordance with the logical standards of set by Michelle Stone. That Bennett had no children is an “insurmountable” problem to the church’s “dominant narrative.” Michelle has vindicated John C. Bennett.
@jaredvaughan1665
2 ай бұрын
Joseph's public denials are just that: public denials. He would have felt no need to use physical violence to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor if he did not dictate 132 and presented it to the Nauvoo High Council.
@nostoppingit7243
2 ай бұрын
Try researching the City council minutes and the actual reasoning behind destroying the Expositor. They printed libel which they believed gave them grounds to destroy the Expositor. And if you look at the City Council minutes you will also see that those who were present at both the City and High Council meetings confirmed that what Joseph and Hyrum stated was true that what the Expositor printed regarding polygamy was false.
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
If he had dictated section 132, he would have no reason to disavow it. If he had been "visited by an Angel with a sword", he would feel no fear towards anyone reiterating a prophecy he had received.
@ronaldreagan3813
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 Let me let you in on something everyone but the logic/polygamy deniers are unaware of. It is not odd for a religious leader to keep certain practices secret and to use manipulation such as a revelation about an angel with a drawn sword.
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
@@ronaldreagan3813 well if that's what happened, it should be easy as peach pie for you to produce the evidence proving that Joseph ever said such a thing how about an angel with a drawn sword.
@ronaldreagan3813
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 well before we move on to that subject lets first agree your statement that if "he had dictated section 132, he would have no reason to disavow it" is really stupid because we know it isn't odd for religious leaders or anyone else to do one thing in public and something else in private. Can we also agree that your statement that if Joseph had been visited by an angel with a drawn sword he would feel no fear is also a really stupid comment since we agree that it isn't odd for religious leaders to use alleged revelations to manipulate people? You see you are starting with the assumption that old Joe was honest Abe, logical people don't do that. Such presuppositions and motivated reasoning is the hallmark of logic/polygamy deniers methodology which is why it is an online fad that can't make any inroads into the professional field where such methodology is rejected. Sounds like you are ready to move on from that methodology and agree your previous statement was really stupid.
@RyanWimmer
2 ай бұрын
Thus is easy, he didn’t do carefully worded denials, he simply lied.
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
every single thing about him was a lie
@RyanWimmer
2 ай бұрын
@@sdfotodude I believe the pious fraud thesis. I think if Brian Hales could get out of the apologist bubble he could argue more effectively. Because he has motivated reasoning it’s harder for him to argue with someone who has even more motivated reasoning like Michelle Stone.
@happiness9752
2 ай бұрын
Michelle, it's obvious you and The Mainstream church are not going to see eye to eye on this... Why not just join the community of Christ at this point?
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
The Community of Christ also accused Joseph. During their liberal transition of the 70's and 80's they intentionally separated themselves from Joseph Smith, and started saying they too believed he was a polygamist. People like to claim that it was because the evidence was so overwhelming, but that wasn't the case at all. I love the LDS church in so many ways, and I am a committed member. I don't think it's necessary to agree on every point in order to be a member of a community or religion.
@happiness9752
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStoneDo you have a link to the video of the Woman's conference presentation by Claire Haynie?
@TaiHoo-c8h
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone: You cannot sustain Russell M. Nelson without affirming that Brigham Young was his preceding prophet. Whose apostolic lineage is Russell M. Nelson claiming? The Book of Mormon that you read and quote from, was edited by Orson Pratt under commission from John Taylor, in 1879. If John Taylor and Orson Pratt were murderers and adulterers, then how could you share the message of a corrupted and altered Book of Mormon? Why not proselytize the Herald Press version or the Strangite version? Why validate the work of polygamists who you condemn as the real killers of Joseph Smith? The Temple ritual that we employ today was written by Wilford Woodruff, having originally been implemented by Brigham Young and Daniel H. Wells. How on earth can you thereupon partake of a ritual that was composed by active polygamists? Your very right to vote was enfranchised by Emmeline Wells and George Q. Cannon, while they practiced plural marriage. For goodness sake - if you don't like plural marriage, that's fine. But you find no problem grifting and mooching off of the enduring labor and legacy which these polygamists gave their lives for when there's a free gift or handout to take.
@ronaldreagan3813
2 ай бұрын
Its not really between her and simply the Mainstream church. It is her against the consensus of the historical community, both Mormon and Non. If she won over the historical community the LDS church would follow just as they have on other historical issues...such as Joseph's secret practice of polygamy. Revisionist history has in the past overturned the consensus before and there is nothing wrong with trying. But it isn't done as a self-proclaimed expert on KZitem, Blogs, or self-published books, it is done through submitting to prestigious journals and publishers to make the case. Michelle completely refuses to do that, the attention and hugs she gets from KZitem disciples is sufficient for her. On the one-hand Michelle seems completely non-self-aware in that she can make the most outrageously absurd arguments while maintaining a straight face. But she is self-aware enough to know that her methodology of presuppositions and motivated reasoning could never make it through the peer review process. So, she continues to preach to others who share the desired conclusions she works backwards to reach. Just look at her denial as to why the RLDS gave up the losing battle, it most certainly was due to the research of their own historians.
@rowanwhiteleaf443
2 ай бұрын
@@ronaldreagan3813 Prior to about 2010, it was considered "revisionist" to say that Joseph was the father of zero children from his numerous polygamous wives. DNA testing was unkind to the prestigious journals and publishers.
@arnaldohumbertopereira5120
2 ай бұрын
I love what you guys do, but it is really hard for me to believe polygamy didn't start with Joseph because of the Nauvoo Expositor. Everything William Law says in there Joseph was secretly teaching in 1844 is confirmed later by Brigham Young himself! And we can see clearly in the Nauvoo Expositor that William Law didn't like Brigham. So it is very hard to believe Brigham Young and William Law were working together to make up stories about Joseph. There is a huge lack of motivation for that! I think it makes more sense that both William Law and Brigham Young were just telling their interpretations of what Joseph actually told them in secret. Otherwise why would their accounts about D&C 132 be so similar?
@veritas9243
2 ай бұрын
they’ve covered all of that and it’s a key component to understanding and realising that Joseph was definitely not the originator of the polygamy
@veritas9243
2 ай бұрын
See this is the big problem people need to realise that William Law and Brigham that’s right “Brigham” were antagonists who were basically conspiring against the prophet, don’t be scared to dive down this rabbit hole, just make sure you have rope that’s anchored by your testimony of Christ and you’ll learn the truth.. That Joseph was no liar and that he loved and was married to only one. wife, his darling Emma
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
There are a lot of answers to this, but please just consider this one thing -- we know that the Utah historians utilized the writings of Joseph's accusers, including John Bennett, when compiling their histories. They had the Nauvoo Expositor in Utah. Why is it at all hard to accept that they could very easily have utilized it when they created "the revelation"?
@JakobPGrau
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStoneExactly. What better way to make it appear that Joseph was secretly teaching this stuff than to crib verbiage from the Expositor? This is not hard to understand.
@MommaCrissa
2 ай бұрын
Go back and watch episodes 82, 84, and 87. 👍
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@9:04 you are ignoring the Gospel Topics Essay.
@veritas9243
2 ай бұрын
no they’re not they’ve already discussed it, you just missed it
@JakobPGrau
2 ай бұрын
@@veritas9243Exactly. No need to relitigate debunked trash ad nauseum.
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
You haven't watched the videos, and you don't plan to.
@jarenthompson915
2 ай бұрын
You never answered me last post, so here you go again. If the subsequent prophets and apostles and council of 50, violated God's law of chastity to practice plural marriage, shouldn't all of them be ex'd? And wouldn't that disqualify the sealing ordinances for the wives and children? But Joseph declared some of these brethren having received their "calling and election made sure", such as Wilford Woodruff. And what about Jesus? Isn't the law of heaven that all children are to be born within the bonds of marriage? So does that mean Mary was polygamist having 2 husbands? The answer is found within 132, but you say it's not inspired... Be careful not to speak evil of the Lord's annointed
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
The answer is actually found in section 124, where the Lord indicates that if they do not complete the temple (in the time period he gave Joseph) he will reject them and all of their ordinances.
@jarenthompson915
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 so you're saying that the church and it's leaders lost the blessings of the priesthood for failing to build the Nauvoo temple on time? So when were the blessings restored? And how?
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
@@jarenthompson915 I didn't say it, I'm just aping Section 124. What do you think it says?
@rocketzero2103
2 ай бұрын
@@jarenthompson915 if the condemnation of Section 84 has never been lifted, then it remains in effect. Same with 124. Which means that we are likely talking about the rejection of over 90 million ordinances performed.
@jarenthompson915
2 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103 exactly. When I read thru 124, the part that stuck out was not getting the temple built in time, thus losing the blessings of the priesthood, which would negate everything. If this isn't what you were hinting at, give verses or spell it out. From what I've heard from Michelle, she's disturbed by the New and Everlasting Covenant, with it's applications, but from the things she says, it would logically mean millions of sealings (spouses and children and the dead) are all invalid, negated, of no consequence.
@whatsup3270
2 ай бұрын
One fact is, that Joe had taken himself a young girl to wife, and promised his followers that of his lineage there should be a son, who should be to them prophet, priest, and king. Unluckily, however, the priest and king turned out to be a female. But I suppose the faithful will receive her as pythoness and queen, and nursing mother in the church.- Daily Evening Gazette St Louis Wednesday Aug 15, 1838 (Vol. 1)
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
Shouldn't you rather be with your children or at church rather than deleting comments that disagree with your worldview
@veritas9243
2 ай бұрын
haha you’ll get over it I did, but it doesn’t mean she’s wrong in what she believes, i’m an active member of the church and these three and Rob Fotheringham have led me to find out for myself that Joseph did not practice the abomination of live in booty calls
@JakobPGrau
2 ай бұрын
😂😂😂 Shouldn't you be getting a hobby?
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@@JakobPGrau this is my hobby. I have been investigating and commenting on the church for nearly 20 years
@sdfotodude
2 ай бұрын
@@veritas9243 will the corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints screwed the pooch when they produced a gospel topics essay that was so damning to joseph. I mean having 14 year old wives and other men's wives is pretty damning.Not telling Emma about any of this until he already had at least 20 wives is pretty immoral if you ask me. Why didn't he celebrate the Nauvoo Expositor exposing what was going on within his church. It directly led to his early demise. What if Joseph actually practiced polygamy would that change your opinion of him?
@ggrace1133
2 ай бұрын
Shouldn’t you be following your own advice?
@JacobIsBell
2 ай бұрын
I don’t know of a single time Joseph Smith is quoted as using the phrase “unauthorized polygamy“ or “authorized polygamy“. Do you guys know of a single time JS used either of those phrases?
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