I so wish I could have played Minecraft before the Internet. Imagine a pokemon red type of community, where you only really learned new things like the nether, or the end, or new crafting recipes through friends at school. The sense of wonder and discovery would be insane.
@abramthiessen8749
7 жыл бұрын
From experience there was a little of that wonderful discovery and a lot of not even knowing that stairs or doors were a craftable thing for 6 months.
@sophiejones7727
7 жыл бұрын
If you played Minecraft as it was being made, that did happen. At least, if you were like most people and didn't read the patch notes. You didn't need the internet to play the game, the game wasn't as well optimized as it is now, and back in beta there wasn't a wiki. New features of the game would pop up on youtube videos of people's builds, and everyone would be like "OMG what *is* that!?" If you only picked up the game after it's release though, then yeah, you missed all of that. If you want that experience with games nowadays you need to be in them for Early Access or Open Beta.
@patrickbeart7091
7 жыл бұрын
This is why I love the idea of a procedural crafting game. I have no clue how you'd implement this, and it seems impossible, but having a collaborative yet mysterious crafting experience would be incredible. Games like Elite: Dangerous attempted this, with the mechanic of planet discovery, but there was no feeling that you contributed massively to any global effort.
@jonathanfaber3291
6 жыл бұрын
although the internet did make some aspects of minecraft way more cool, like the insane things redstoners came up with and figured out to automate everything (a good example is theminecraftmuse if that deprecated channel is still on youtube). Someone people made freaking clocks out of redstone because why not
@hazelkennedy6824
6 жыл бұрын
+Jonathan Faber Heck, people made GPUs and multichannel speakers with minecraft
@tasoganedude
10 жыл бұрын
1. Sense pleasure 2. Fantasy 3. Narrative 4. Challenge 5. Fellowship 6. Competition 7. Discovery 8. Expression 9. Abnegation
@alexnobody1
6 жыл бұрын
Long ago, these nine nations lived in harmony. But everything changed when the Competition nation attacked.
@Orange_Swirl
5 жыл бұрын
@@alexnobody1 Oh God, too accurate.
@deadfr0g
Жыл бұрын
@@alexnobody1 This is actually hilarious because competitive players LOVE to attack. 😂
@kelenloth
8 жыл бұрын
Just two days ago, I asked someone if they had played Portal, and they responded "I'm not really a fan of first person shooters". I was taken aback for a moment, thinking "Is Portal a FPS? Oh, I guess it kind of is..." I explained to my friend that while portal is first person and I guess you have a gun, there is no running and gunning, and no killing people - it's all puzzles and physics. She was surprised and interested. This is what happens when we mislabel games. I hope she plays Portal soon.
@CaptainSwift11
8 жыл бұрын
that was one letter off
@kelenloth
8 жыл бұрын
+CaptainSwift11 I'm sorry?
@CaptainSwift11
8 жыл бұрын
+kelenloth It just bothers me
@kelenloth
8 жыл бұрын
+CaptainSwift11 no what I mean is I don't see it. Which letter?
@lkz
6 жыл бұрын
Well *Postal* (2), one letter off, is a first person shooter ;)
@MarcusNorton1024
8 жыл бұрын
Just rewatched this video again. I think this is one of your best episodes.
@azmiazaico
6 жыл бұрын
Marcus Norton yeah top quality
@TheNetherlandDwarf
9 жыл бұрын
I love this art. The derp faces are hilarious, the scenarios look really pleasant
@empresslithia
7 жыл бұрын
I know! Dan just looks so cute this way :)
@azmiazaico
6 жыл бұрын
Yeah
@Shaztrot
10 жыл бұрын
"So, Steve! I see you've been playing a game called "Last Dream" a fair bit recently. What is it?" "Oh, it's a Submission-Discovery game with Fantasy aspects!" "This is why we aren't friends."
@tasoganedude
8 жыл бұрын
Dear Extra Credits team, I would be interested in that topic episode you suggested; Difficulty VS Challenge. You've done an episode on Depth VS Complexity.
@RolandHaller
6 жыл бұрын
Dear ExtraCredit team, It’s been more than A year that I listen to you. And you repeatedly blow my mind. You guys are awesome. Thanks.
@maxkeogh8083
12 жыл бұрын
It amazes me how conversational you guys are in each episode. You never come across as 'giving a lecture' to people. It's like you're talking to us directly in an intelligent, respectful way. That's what I love about this show. Keep up the great work!
@er4795
8 жыл бұрын
You should do a Ted Talk
@FJmus1C
8 жыл бұрын
+ƃɹǝquǝʇʇnɹ ɯıɐɹɥdǝ This has way to few upvotes!
@action9000
8 жыл бұрын
This whole video has way too few upvotes! Bring em on! :D
@pixyireproductions
8 жыл бұрын
jaaaaa that would be awesome
@aerohk
8 жыл бұрын
I think he doesn't want to show his face.
@williamransom940
8 жыл бұрын
+Aerohk who? James or dan because james has a channel for him talking straight to the camera about games and dan has shown up from time to time on stream videos.
@GameBoyBlueATGMAIL
9 жыл бұрын
I think it's worth noting that, when Bethesda began the Skyrim project they first created the logo you see in the game. "What does this game feel like" they asked themselves. So it is definitely possible and has worked wonders where a developer ALSO approaches the game from an aesthetic perspective.
@CaityRaindrop
10 жыл бұрын
I recently went over this in my Game Design class, and the idea for the word Submission was that human's like to be told what to do, and not have to think about it, which is pretty much similar like zoning out.
@lkz
6 жыл бұрын
So in that sense, it would be a lack of player agency.
@EntropicUsername
12 жыл бұрын
I just gotta say, I find the way the hands are drawn in this episode adorable.
@NonnyOrJonny
10 жыл бұрын
Yooo! so this is episode is a year old and we haven't yet heard of James' contributions to the core Aesthetics of play. And I think we'd all benefit from the knowledge of this :) so can we please? (mailbox episode maybe?)
@RPGtourguide
10 жыл бұрын
I think this would be an interesting way of classifying games, better than the current mechanics-based genres. I think there would be a lot of mixed genres and I'm sure some people would disagree on certain games aesthetics, but still, it is good to look at them in a different light.
@otimo144
9 жыл бұрын
I always thought we just classify games like this: Portal: FPS puzzle platformer CODMW4: Linear FPS Action
@ancalyme
9 жыл бұрын
I recently got confused about someone talking about turn based strategy rpgs. I thought he was talking about Fire Emblem like SRPGs. I totally agree that we need to define games by several categories.
@otimo144
9 жыл бұрын
ancalyme Fukigen Cinderella. And I thought you just tack on anything that was something to do with the game. Like Firefall is an fps mmorpg meaning it is a first person massively multiplayer online role playing game and then if you like the sound of that you would go and look more into the game via reviews or playthoughs.
@ancalyme
9 жыл бұрын
Otimo Did not expect anyone to recognise him/her haha
@otimo144
9 жыл бұрын
ancalyme It was a good manga :D
@johnturner7790
7 жыл бұрын
A hat trading game with a team-based class-based objective oriented fps
@SturFriedBrains
8 жыл бұрын
Honestly, this is the most interesting and helpful episode in your entire channel. This helped me so fucking much.
@empresslithia
7 жыл бұрын
This reminds me of the Gamification Octalysis: a chart of the 8 core drives behind our actions. Epic Meaning, Empowerment, Social Influence, Unpredictability, Avoidance, Scarcity, Ownership and Accomplishment.
@steveneiman2158
10 жыл бұрын
I noticed that Magic the Gathering actually delivers on five of the aesthetics. Sensation in the cool card art. Fantasy in imagining the world constructed by the flavor and storyline. Challenge in playing against a skilled opponent. Fellowship in the friendships with other players. Discovery in finding new tactics and releases of new cards and mechanics. Expression in designing new and creative deck ideas and situational use of cards.
@LinkEX
9 жыл бұрын
-1:15-- If both the challenge (which is about skill and ambition) and the aspect of playing as someone in this world (which is about emotion and imagination) form the Aesthetics, I'd probably split them up further rather than blending them together, as those two are such vastly different experiences.- -It works as one of the three cornerstones in this model, but I think splitting them up and looking at them seperately should be done when looking at some more particular aspects.- Nevermind, should have watched the whole video first before commenting :P
@zackLenfairUltrarocketman2
9 жыл бұрын
lol well no s*t Sherlock (lol no offense )
@microhomebrew
12 жыл бұрын
oh my god, you have no idea you much my face just lit up when you said "the incredible machine." Back when that had just come out, it was all I used a computer for!! I spent HOURS on that game making the coolest most complicated machine imaginable! I even managed to make 1, my favorite, which produced different results each time it was set off. It was a game of ball on ball dodgeball/tag/hockey which utilized the mechanics of altering specific balls' attributes. Best memories right there.
@Krystamyth
11 жыл бұрын
"We can do a whole episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge..." ...well, please, do that. :3
@JaneXemylixa
6 жыл бұрын
I realised that my fav casual game, Meadow, hits 4 of the aesthetics - despite being a walking sim with like two and a half actual game mechanics. It's sense pleasure (music, sound design and views), fellowship (communication and teamwork with other players), discovery (what's in that cave I've never seen befo- ohh wooow!), and abnegation (you can spend hours galloping across the fields to relax).
@ILoveSoImAlive
10 жыл бұрын
actualy there is another big important point in this topic. its a difference between which core aestetic this game _should_ motivate and highlight per design, and with which emotive reason actual player engages the game. i personaly played counter strike out of many reasons. my strongest motivation was discovering and overcoming of obstacles, thats why for me counter strike never was frustrating, and was always fun and joy.
@BloodyRoastBeef
9 жыл бұрын
This is pretty much how I always thought of game genres. I like how its more officially analyzed here, never quite put it into words myself.
@3333218
10 жыл бұрын
Is there any video of James giving a talk about this subject ? I wouldn't mind for a one hour long version.
@PSyCHoHaMSTeRza
10 жыл бұрын
Just search for James Portnow on youtube, I see there are a few of his talks, I just don't know if any of them are about this specific subject.
@3333218
10 жыл бұрын
Foolish me. It didn't occur to me to search again. [Previously some years ago there wasn't much about James on KZitem as there is today] Here is the video : watch?v=oXaDQTziXtI
@mattierviala3897
5 жыл бұрын
1:45-1:57 8:39-8:44 Shigeru Miyamoto knows what you mean from wikipedia: "Miyamoto figures out if a game is fun for himself. He says that if he enjoys it, others will too. He elaborates, citing the conception of the Pokémon series as an example, "And that's the point - Not to make something sell, something very popular, but to love something, and make something that we creators can love" and results speak for themselves...
@Genubath1
9 жыл бұрын
Should it be mentioned that competition and fellowship doesn't have to be with real people? I think this can be achieved when you have great characters and immersion in your game. (how many of you have hated your rival in pokemon with a burning passion?)
@Visigoth_
6 жыл бұрын
Meh... not really... Real fellowship requires a living person (debatably even a "thing"), and true competition... well we are already very capable of doing that with AI. - Edited for clarity. (^_^)b
@gathorall9136
5 жыл бұрын
@@Visigoth_ I firmly feel this is just humanist hubris that denies the effectiveness of substitutes to humans, and an insult to those who carefully craft these experiences.
@Visigoth_
5 жыл бұрын
@@gathorall9136, :) feel however you want... I think we're probably just defining "Fellowship" differently.
@TheAssassin642
3 жыл бұрын
@@Visigoth_ If you can feel for fictional characters/humans, I don't see why you couldn't experience fellowship with them. I mean if we couldn't relate/compare fictional characters to real people, we wouldn't have stories I think? Like we have to be able to feel something real. So fellowship should also be perfectly possible as well.
@zephyr6927
2 жыл бұрын
@@gathorall9136 I agree.
@MrSuperCraft
12 жыл бұрын
And not to mention the fellowship portrayed in the games community forum, helping new players and sharing their crazy narrative.
@paul_chandler3082
8 жыл бұрын
5:48 look at the left
@twerdeffan1080
8 жыл бұрын
+ShedGaming Huh?
@twerdeffan1080
8 жыл бұрын
+Alex Ander Oh the face lol.
@micahtron8512
7 жыл бұрын
One of your best videos to date! Curious though, what are the other "genres" James has added beyond these eight?
@HalcyonSerenade
8 жыл бұрын
Man, you people are amazing. I know this video (amongst others) is old, but I've only recently been introduced to the channel yet it's like you're reading my mind. Even when you take a different approach to a subject compared to what I have, you wind up coming to almost the same conclusion. (The differences are usually that yours are much more coherent, insightful, and well-articulated). I don't know whether to feel validated for having these thoughts or humbled by not arriving at any particularly original or groundbreaking conclusions, lol.
@palgaea
5 жыл бұрын
Damn that City of Heroes reference hit me hard.. 😢 'heroes may fall, but heroism never shall'
@SkySpiral7_Lets_play
Жыл бұрын
1. 4:16 Sensation: Game as sense-pleasure 2. 4:40 Fantasy: Game as make-believe 3. 4:57 Narrative: Game as drama 4. 5:12 Challenge: Game as obstacle course 5. 5:48 Fellowship: Game as social framework 6. 6:09 Added: Competition: Game as expression of dominance 7. 6:40 Discovery: Game as uncharted territory 8. 7:01 Expression: Game as self-discovery 9. 7:28-7:59 Abnegation/Submission: Game as pastime
@makkon06
12 жыл бұрын
This was right up my alley! Just what my small team needed. Thank you!
@juansegura5309
5 жыл бұрын
Bro Im taking a media game studies class and I had been lost for 4 weeks before the exam. Just helped a ton 😂 THANK U
@TimChaos5
7 жыл бұрын
This is a great video on the questions that I always think about: why do people enjoy the games they do? What type of "fun" do certain games provide? Why is a game a 10/10 for one person, but 6.5/10 for someone else? I'd love more videos on the topic!!!
@WallySketch
8 жыл бұрын
KZitem should allow posting this video on comments, and automatically post it on every "TOP 10 RPG" video where Skyrim/Minecraft is number 1.
@WallySketch
8 жыл бұрын
+Mark Boltz That's not a video. It's a link to a video =)
@WallySketch
8 жыл бұрын
Mark Boltz Yeah and it's ok. Posting videos on comment would be awfull with the youtube community if you ask me.
@TheDemofox
8 жыл бұрын
This was a great video but I wanted to bring up a point about Borderlands. As I came late to the series I have played mainly the second game and so will mainly use it for my examples but I have played some of the first and they seem quite similar. Disclaimer over, I feel that the core aesthetic of borderlands isn't that of fellowship but of fantasy. More specifically power fantasy. In the game you play as a vault hunter, a collection of people who are admired and to some extent feared by the general population. The writing reinforces your dominance with the frequent repitition of "Badass". "Badass" is used as a title given to the tougher variations of enemies, throughout the game you can complete optional Badass challenges to earn Badass points which give you badass tokens to spend. Many NPCs will refer to you as a badass both during story dialogue and randomly when around citizens. The game makes the player feel powerful through the gameplay mechanics, when you do considerably more damage than needed to kill an enemy they will explode instead of just falling down dead, you take no fall damage allowing you to jump from increadible heights without a problem. There are also many story choices used to further reinforce the player's feeling of superiority, for example, the first character you meet is claptrap, an incompetent robot who continually tries and fails to be a badass requiring you too come in and save him. There are many other times throughout the game that the story does this but to keep this spoiler free I won't say what they are. Again this is all coming from my experience with Borderlands 2, but from what I have played of the original and the pre-sequel I feel like the designers have been very consistant throughout the series. That said I will probably come back once I have had the chance to play more of the original.
@Holacalaca
8 жыл бұрын
Looking for some insight on how to properly name a game genre (because I like thinking about videogames like that) I found the Game Show video of "genre and you" and this video, and looking at both, it's revealed to me again why I stopped watching that other channel lol.
@dantess2693
8 жыл бұрын
A lot of games just name it "action" or "puzzle" with a pinch of descriptiveness. You'll rarely find real genre labels on a game's box for instance.
@Holacalaca
8 жыл бұрын
That's my problem, genres are all over the place between theeming, mechanics, perspective, time period, etc they almost don't matter at all
@dantess2693
8 жыл бұрын
Chueko Loyo They really don't! In terms of marketing nowadays people know what they are getting from a AAA title from the internet (trailers) and word of mouth (both are one and the same now). The audience for indie gaming tend to know what they like anyway, but I'm just generalising.
@gaskindesignstudios3998
7 жыл бұрын
I remember learning it this way, but I always thought of it as a pyramid or like a log problem (lol) like (for developers) it goes: DA M You think of the Dynamics you want and how you want the players to feel during the players interaction with the dynamics (which is part of the aesthetics) then you create the mechanics to create the Dynamics so on and so forth. I'm not saying its wrong or anything like that and I'm just starting out so i "have no room to talk/not an expert yet." but just offering another way of thinking about M.D.A Thanks for reading :)
@lifewithbeats
12 жыл бұрын
As a computer science student with no intention of getting into game design.... I still watch and love all these videos
@TheAltugi
12 жыл бұрын
Tracy Fullerton's playcentric approach is one of the few that tries to teach designers to bring together the mechanics and aesthetics poles. She proposes to define the player experiences we aim at before we start to think of mechanics that could produce such aesthetics.
@wavelength3856
5 жыл бұрын
Out of a lot of great Extra Credits videos out there, this might be the single most useful one.
@Obstreperous_Octopus
9 жыл бұрын
I agree. The way we define genres is outdated and utterly inadequate. I mean, what is even the definition of an "RPG" these days? It's not a Game in which you Play the Role of a character, because that's basically most games these days. It's not the leveling up or turn based combat that used to be iconic of RPGs, because nowadays, almost all / almost no games use these mechanics, respectively. Old RPGs were distinct from other games for being very plot and character driven. But, again, most games do this too these days. I'd like to know what other people thought about this topic.
@unvergebeneid
10 жыл бұрын
Well, "road movie" would be an example for a film genre that's totally superficial. So it's people driving from A to B. Great, that says a lot about what feel or story this film delivers.
@blueshoals
9 жыл бұрын
Came back to watch this again. One of my favorite episodes.
@hemijones7886
9 жыл бұрын
I recommend watching this at 0.5 speed. Coupled with the art style... Gold.
@piteoswaldo
8 жыл бұрын
A classic RPG, in my view, is characterized by 3 core aesthetics: Fantasy - the player is transported to another world, playing a role in that different reality. Narrative - the game's objective is telling a story. The player is an actor in the narrative. Expression - the player not only interprets the character, but creates and develops it. The levelling system in well made classic RPGs is a mechanic that enhances expression aesthetic by letting the player start with a standard "blank" character, and allowing its gradual development as the player gets more familiar with the theme and other game mechanics. This way the player is not overloaded with character creation at the start, and gives the opportunity to adapt to new situations. The same levelling mechanic serves a totally different role in other game genres, usually only making the character stronger in what it already does (allowing exploration of new areas or challenging new enemies), and not growing in player expression. I see modern RPGs (and almost every genre) trading narrative for exploration. Instead of focusing on strong storytelling, they have multiple endings to the same story, making the probable ending the player experiences not as memorable as it could be, but giving replay value in exploring the possible endings. Is this bad? Of course not! The technology allowed this change, with huge worlds to explore and multiple paths to take. Also, this allows the player's actions to influence the story in almost the same way as in tabletop RPGs, expanding the aesthetic of player expression.
@howie10000
10 жыл бұрын
This video completely changed how I understood games. Bravo!
@cheemers
9 жыл бұрын
I think one of the reasons Dark Souls and the other souls game are so widely praised is because they tick off a surprising number of these aesthetics. All of them apart from sensory I'd say. They have fantasy, a teasing narrative, challenge, fellowship, discovery, expression and abnegation.
@matthewmcneany
8 жыл бұрын
This is another one of your videos/areas of Game development theory with massive implications for teaching.
@MySpaceBarsBroken0o
12 жыл бұрын
That's almost exactly how I felt about MapleStory. The old MS managed to provide all 9 aesthetics covered in the video. I think MMOs, especially MMORPGs, are some of the easiest games to find multiple aesthetics in. Unfortunately, providing maintenance on those aesthetics is an area that still needs a lot of work. Too often I find myself getting really into an online game, for multiple reasons, but over time the things that drew me in always start to fade away until I get bored and leave.
@Keplerplaytru
8 жыл бұрын
I love point-and-click adventure games for abnegation, as you can make it on your own pace. And even sometimes just stop to enjoy the graphics and music.
@jgcooper
11 жыл бұрын
within sensory aesthetics i would add interaction, as in being stimulated by and enjoy the interaction within mechanics in the game, just as would with visuals, sound, etc. "oh look, if i press this, this happens, nice!" just as "hey, that looks cool!" it's something that specially games within media can attain, and it's the main reason i like games.
@Devonimp
10 жыл бұрын
Okay... that bit where you say "City of Heroes' and show somebody showing respect and mourning for a passed loved one..... Thats alot like watching an interesting debate only for someone to suckerpunch you in the gut. .... well played .... I miss that game.
@fawfulmark2
12 жыл бұрын
Allison got a Job at Retro Studios, so she is also busy working with them on that "new game" Nintendo mentioned post-E3. in the meantime they usually have the new member of the pirate crew(Leelee) take over art duties.
@cupriferouscatalyst3708
8 жыл бұрын
i disagree with DDR being about the sense pleasure core aesthetic. no one plays DDR for the way you feet feel when rapidly stepping on the dance pad, and anyone who is in it mainly for the music will just download the songs and listen to them. for most players, DDR is about the challenge (or the excercise), and i'd say that goes for tag too. the thought that someone whould play it mainly for the sensation of touching children is actually horrible (yet sadly, it probably happens).
@tvsonicserbia5140
8 жыл бұрын
+Cupriferous Catalyst Well DDR is aesthetic and challenge, probably abnegation too.
@FakeEnema
8 жыл бұрын
+Cupriferous Catalyst I definitely played DDR for the sense pleasure. I loved just getting into a rhythm and doing steps that just naturally flowed into each other. That's why my favorite songs were not the hardest songs, but the ones with a great rhythm and flow to how you move your feet.
@fawfulmark2
8 жыл бұрын
+Cupriferous Catalyst while it is true there is that minority who play to master a song's patterns and steps(I'll get past light mode someday!) a majority of the time people in the arcades just play DDR just for the fun of going against friends from the numerous times I've seen it played over at GameWorks. so Challenge is on, but sensation(enhanced by the arcade environment) does seem to fit the most.
@kronusexodues7283
8 жыл бұрын
sorry that this comment comes 3 years late :D there is one thing wrong with your argumentation. In a film we define genres based on the emotion that we get from it. We go to a comedy because we want to laugh or to a horror film because we want to feel fear. but in games it's different. We don't play games for the story but for the game play. People don't play LoL for it's story, they play it because they want that kind of gameplay. and even though starcraft has a story which might be nice, people wouldn't play it just for that. they's play it because they want to play a strategy game. The story is just a nice bonus. So it only makes sense that we define game genres based on their game play. There are also genres where we indeed define the genre based on the emotional reason, for example horror. In horror games we actually do play for the emotion and not for the game play and thus it's the emotion that gives us the genre name. Actually, our current classification of genres is fine. imagine you found all those action games too fast and right now you are in the mood for something easy and turn based. good luck finding that when your genres are just fantasy, sci-fi and romance. those genres wouldn't tell you at all what kind of gameplay you have to expect. And about that portal example. it's true that it has first person shooter elements, but it also has puzzle elements. so when the first person shooter genre comes and says "you belong to us" Portal can legitemately say "no I don't. I already have a genre." So no problem there.
@125prabhjot
8 жыл бұрын
+Kronus Exodues Hello! I feel like some of the points you make need a bit of clarification. I think what they mean when they say you go to a game for a certain feeling, that these "feelings" are not related to emotion, but to mood. For example, it's totally possible that you are in the mood for a good story, or a good strategy game. You are just in the mood for something, and these new categories fit these moods. You do go for games for gameplay, but the gameplay is inherently tied to the aesthetics. I think it's really hard to call abnegation or sense pleasure an actual emotion? Emotion is really only tied to narrative (perhaps fantasy?), and these are 2 out of the 9 categories. Your example with wanting to play something easy and turn based can still use this new system perfectly, as your aesthetic choice is stemmed from both obstacle, as you want something different to overcome in the game you play, and abnegation, for wanting something easy to turn off your mind (we are not limited to one category with aesthetics). Again, narrative is one aesthetic, that can then be broken down into horror, action, romance..etc. because these subcategories have already been defined by other narrative heavy media (i.e. film and literature). If we can get that much variety from one aesthetic, imagine what we can get from the others!
@naomsnaoms
8 жыл бұрын
+Kronus Exodues Heya, Extra Credits actually cover the different types of motives for playing games - for some it's about mechanics, but not for everyone. Some DO come for story. There're actually four genres. I agree with you about films but disagree about mechanics.
@stationshelter
8 жыл бұрын
+Kronus Exodues The reason you want to play a strategy game is because you want to challenge your mind and feel really smart for beating it. You would play LoL because you want to feel powerful and compete with others, or to play with your friends. The act of clicking your mouse button to shoot a gun and kill a guy in Call of Duty isn't inherently exciting or engaging, but being a cool military guy and using your wits and skills to gun down an opponent totally is.
@FakeEnema
8 жыл бұрын
+Kronus Exodues I think you misunderstood their point a bit. They didn't say that genres are only about story. In fact, they explicitly gave the example that people don't play Mario for the story. They said that genres should be about why you're playing the game. The mechanics are just a tool to achieve the aesthetic goal (the motivation for play). I don't come home from a stressful day of work and think, "Man, I could really go for a top-down game right now." No, I think that I could go for something relaxing, or maybe to blow off steam, so what I'm really looking for is abnegation or sense pleasure. As sethraptor mentioned, you play strategy games for the challenge, not because you're in the mood for a point-and-click game.
@channelnamehere-2486
5 жыл бұрын
The aesthetics of this video are amazing, the graphics not so. Good one!
@Baggreboot
11 жыл бұрын
My thoughts exactly. Great to hear some people still remember this game.
@draconariousthegamer1444
9 жыл бұрын
When he mentions City of Heroes, the image definitely isn't from the game itself directly. I don't remember what specific date City of Heroes ended, but was this and ode to the destroyed world? If so, thank you years beyond, Extra Credits. I hope to see City of Titans grow grand from the soil those graves.
@Otome_chan311
5 жыл бұрын
The problem is that the stuff talked about here tell you absolutely nothing about a game. Say you're really into games that "make you feel like a marine". As mentioned that'd be fantasy. But then you get games that fill an entirely different fantasy. Say.... being a chef or a fashion designer. The people interested in one of those games will absolutely not be interested in the other game. Whereas movie genres it's almost *always* the case that you enjoy a variety of things within the genre. People who like comedy movies will enjoy all kinds of comedies. People who enjoy romance will enjoy all sorts of romance movies. This idea is why so many movies now have a romance subplot and a bit of action, so that fans of both will still find things in the movie to enjoy, even if the movie is neither of those genres.
@paulstaker8861
11 жыл бұрын
One of the best moments playing WoW was ground-travelling from Stormwind to both ends of the Eastern Kingdoms while stuck at level 20. Being an Ally character and slogging through countless beat ups of elite NPCs to finally getting into the Blood Elf starting zone to scare off newbies was epic.
@NickNiccelson
10 жыл бұрын
Food for thought: Are some of these core aesthetics mutually exclusive by definition? As an example, I can't think of a game where the combat system is geared towards both challenge (like Devil May Cry) and abnegation (like Dynasty Warriors).
@jezzbanger
10 жыл бұрын
I would add 'subversion' to the rest. I get the biggest kick out of undermining the mechanics of games to break the rules. Some of the most popular games implicitly encourage this by allowing semi obvious game breaking features to persist in their games that combine in interesting ways. I would count every single elder scrolls game as an example of this
@aidan8473
10 жыл бұрын
That's Exploration. If you look at the Extra Credits video about negative space, it explains this well (if you haven't seen it).
@DeltaSpider_
9 жыл бұрын
7:28 When I heard that, I couldn't help but think of the factions from divergent, because of the name of the attribute there: abnegation.
@Cleath78
9 жыл бұрын
This using aesthetics to define genres thing is great, but that could possibly lump almost everything in the incredibly broad "action adventure" genre together, even though they differ drastically. Maybe sub-genres would be good. Like fps action-adventure or sandbox action adventure. It's just that sometimes, very different kinds of gameplay give the same underlying aesthetics, and labeling by mechanics is still important.
@xXES3MXx
11 жыл бұрын
I want to squeeze him so much. Love you guys, you are geniuses!
@6661313
11 жыл бұрын
aww the coh mention >.< hands down best costume creator I have ever seen
@MrSuperCraft
12 жыл бұрын
I love Dwarf Fortress for sense, fantasy, occasionally narrative (It's so vague you can make up your own story), challenge, discovery, and expression. Everything is just so perfect in that game for me I usually just can't stop playing it.
@ChiruKobra
8 жыл бұрын
That's it! You did it! You earned a new subscriber! Loving your videos so far!
@JoeMazzolaTheFirstPersonCook
12 жыл бұрын
My preference is the cross between discovery-fantasy-sensory that make up most AAA adventure games and RPGs like Skyrim (and all of Elder Scrolls), Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Zelda, in no particular order, but I also really like narrative games as well, as a (book) writer who loves gaming. And, really, the talk of genre for books is outdated too, based on conventions and tropes that see more, less, or different uses than they used to. Food for thought, great vid.
@Hamstroll
10 жыл бұрын
Wow, this is the first time I watch one of your video and I'm really impressed. This is a deep reflexion, way deeper than a review, or a review of reviews. I mean it's nearly philosophia (for those who really know what does this word mean). This is the kind of things that I would make my best to push devs, players, every videogames professionals, even politicians creating laws about videogames watching it. Great work dude =]
@euducationator
10 жыл бұрын
you said that in every other medium the genres are defined by the aestetics, but what about poetry? genres in poetry are defined by arbitrary limitations such as haikus where "it has three lines, the first line has 5 syllables, the second line has seven syllables, the third line has five syllables." or a lymric, witch has an aabba rhyme scheme.
@NaxeCode
9 жыл бұрын
The art in this Extra Credits was adorable!!!
@nujuat
9 жыл бұрын
Hey - that screenshot was from Super Paper Mario - which DID focus on narrative!
@ryansgaming3521
7 жыл бұрын
I like the art style of this video it is definable as a great hand drawn art experience
@jquickri
11 жыл бұрын
Oh man this just got me so excited. Thinking about genres outside of mechanics makes so much sense. Can you imagine playing a horror game the size of Skyrim? Where the main aesthetic was exploration but everything was creepy as fuck? That would be heeeeeeell of dope.
@will.2155
5 жыл бұрын
That Art Style is adorable
@mohitmadnani
11 жыл бұрын
I've been seeing your videos for over a month now and really like to see you guys do one on game analysis. Describing the formal and dramatic elements with the dramatic arc of a game. This will also help in making a video to say about the difference between difficulty and challenge.
@Zanethepure
12 жыл бұрын
I think they should do an episode on the difference between challenge and difficulty
@fawfulmark2
12 жыл бұрын
he worked at Activision for awhile on the CoD series. now he set up his own studio and works as a Teacher at Digipen.
@alienspacebat5218
7 жыл бұрын
>Portal and Fallout 3 are not considered first person shooters because of their aesthetics Dead wrong. Portal is considered a puzzle game because there's no combat and the challenge involves placing portals in the right places after thinking it through. Fallout is considered an RPG because it has a unified world (as opposed to separate levels), stat growth through experience and quests. Those are what you mean by dynamics. Battlefield 3 and Spec Ops: The Line would be a better comparison; highly similar dynamics, starkly different aesthetics. You're also wrong in that for a game to be difficult you have to be able to lose. Wario Land 3 sets you back a good portion of a level if the wrong thing hits you, but aside from the lack of a game over screen or death animation that's no different in dynamics from Meat Boy with its frequent checkpoints.
@Mvgrafico
6 жыл бұрын
But if you read the MDA Framework paper you will see that Aesthetics are what they are because of the dynamics so when you are saying that Portal is a puzzle game because of its dynamics ... you are right but also the video is.
@gagejoseph91
9 жыл бұрын
Kingdom Hearts delivered on plenty of core aesthetics, especially for me. Sense (come on, that game looks and sounds GORGEOUS!), fantasy (does this even need explanation?), narrative (both the people that love and hate the series eventually bring up the HUGE plot, sooo...), challenge (every boss can be beaten at level 1 without taking any damage), discovery (secrets abound, and reward curious players). That is 5 areas. 5. And yet there are people that LOOK for reasons to dislike the series.
@agreatmanlookingtotheright
9 жыл бұрын
There can be many things not to like like the clusterfuck story the combat press x to not die shit the fact that the games would be just generic japanese game #589 without mickey showing up and how the series has been milked like a fat cow not COD MILK but Battlefield is making eye contact with it
@gagejoseph91
9 жыл бұрын
likeajon "the clusterfuck story" - A criticism only people that cannot be bothered to actually understand it make. It really is NOT that hard to follow. It just requires you to think a little bit...god forbid. "press x to not die" - ...Have you even played the games? If all you did was mash X, you would die constantly. "the games would be just generic japanese game #589 without mickey showing up" - Blatantly racist. Not even going to humor this bigotry with a rebuttal. "milked" - I have a very strong feeling you do not actually know the series very well whatsoever.
@agreatmanlookingtotheright
9 жыл бұрын
lol "blatantly racist" now arguing with that anmore i already won without even starting
@gagejoseph91
9 жыл бұрын
likeajon ...Riiiight...I leave your comments open for reaction by anybody who feels so inclined to give theirs. I can recognize a brick wall when I see one.
@agreatmanlookingtotheright
9 жыл бұрын
gagejoseph91 im happy you do the car accidents would skyrocket
@ShadwSonic
12 жыл бұрын
Interesting, based on that I'd say that Super Meat Boy is primarily about competition rather than challenge. This would be because that it's reputation is so great that beating that one game proves you better than a LOT of gamers. I'd also say that there is a slight difference between Discovery and what I call Collection, basically the difference between "this is a neat thing I found" and " COLLECT ALL THE THINGS!"
@johnlittle8045
8 жыл бұрын
My heart broke a little when I saw the bottle being poured out for City of Heroes. 12 years and goin' strong, fellow Paragon residents...
@timothymclean
9 жыл бұрын
The mechanical/dynamic side of things probably deserves some focus in genre-defining as well. Genres are, arguably, a way of finding media that you will enjoy. A person may enjoy horror films but despise romances, for instance. Similarly, a gamer can enjoy the challenge of XCOM but not the challenge of Super Meat Boy, because he enjoys the tactical, strategic, and overall thinky elements of the game, but can't platform to save his life. There definitely needs to be more aesthetic focus, though.
@jasonrevall
12 жыл бұрын
This art style is just adorable :D
@pixyireproductions
7 жыл бұрын
I like how green tie Dan looks like a little blob in this style.
@mrwhippy101
12 жыл бұрын
I'd Like to see an Extra Credits that defines what an RPG is, some people say that every game is an RPG as in every game you are playing a role
@z0mb1e564
7 жыл бұрын
Coincidentally this episode came up while I was re-organizing my Steam library into categories :-D
@stormsource7438
4 жыл бұрын
my fave episode so far. absolutely enlightening
@mrsvcd
11 жыл бұрын
I think the best way to find it is to search for "MDA: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research" using your favorite search engine.
@antonyduhamel1166
6 жыл бұрын
I just reversed back to this video from several videos ahead of this one. I did this because I had a MIND BLOWED moment that I had to share. While watching this video (or to be more precise, this entire series of videos for the past 6 hours straight) I have been playing Assassin's Creed Origins. Bear in mind, that game came out 5.5 YEARS after this video. If you are at all familiar with Assassin's Creed games, you might be wondering how I manage to enjoy both this video series and that game simultaneously. The truth is I'm not doing any story content. I'm just running around, levelling up, doing crafting, and taking pictures. While this video was playing I didn't think anything about its contents. It wasn't until several videos later when I got up to take a bathroom break and make some food, that I had an astounding realization that this video (the one I am commenting on, not the one I was watching prior to getting up) perfectly described the aesthetic that was drawing me in to the game while listening to a video about aesthetics and how they describe games. The video correctly stated that Assassin's Creed games (in general) have Mystery as a core aesthetic, but that wasn't what was keeping me engaged in this activity. In fact, it was abnegation, an aesthetic that would never cross most people's minds as even being part of an Assassin's Creed game. Yet, there I was: performing tasks on autopilot because my mind was primarily engaged with following along with what the video was trying to tell me, but I wasn't simply watching the video because performing such tasks in video games is trivial to me and getting them done while also engaging with another form of media helps me relax further. Despite this video being more than half a decade old, it correctly identified a personal core aesthetic of why I am drawn to this game, one which isn't even an accepted core aesthetic of the game by most definitions... Maybe this seems like something obvious to you, but I seriously have goosebumps from this. As for my point of sharing such a subjective experience? These people (Extra Credits) are the only video game media source I have never found I disagreed with. I disagree with EVERYONE eventually, and it still hasn't happened for me to them. If this keeps up, I need to donate to their show or something, because they are so worth it.
@JudinA
7 жыл бұрын
Narrator!Dan is so cute in this episode I have to shut my eyes to focus on what he's saying.
@TheDyrfmaster
11 жыл бұрын
Daniel's so adorable when he throws his hands into the air. o3o
@tymekx014
6 жыл бұрын
3.42 those don't exist anymore.... I didn't know they existed when they were still active but most "survival" "vanilla" "creative" servers have been replaced with a load of minigamdz
@nanardeurlambda
9 жыл бұрын
I would like to bounce back on the idea that genre in other mediums are defined by emotive criterias, to argue that narrative media always have different sorts of genre: the western or science-fiction is not defined by the same criterias as the comedy, drama or horror. hell, paintings also have different sorts of genres (though they tend to define more by stylstics than genre) abstract is not the same kind of genre than historic, which in turn is slightly different from what sacred art implies(this genre suppose awe, while you can take historic any emotionnal direction). in fact every medium ''haphazardly define its genres over the years'' mostly because when those are born, the medium is not taken seriously enough to do so.
@nomukun1138
11 жыл бұрын
9:16 Bra Relocating by Justin Tense. The intro and outro titles are given (but they aren't labeled as songs, so there's no way you could've known) There's also a link to download in the description.
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