Spent two years in the Bethel School of Super Natural Ministry here at Gateway Church in Olympia, Washington. Had “red flags” the entire time- now, years later-I’m so thankful I’ve been opened to their false gospel. Spent 32 years in a Pentecostal/Charismatic persuasion-now I sitting under teaching in the Bible--book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse!!! So blessed!!!
@lbrown6859
2 жыл бұрын
Any affiliation with Gateway church in Dallas TX?
@TheJpep2424
2 жыл бұрын
Should take about 60 seconds to realize a school of "supernatural" is a scam when no miracles ever happen. When no one can walk on water or raise dead people or heal the blind like Christ and the apostles did that should shutdown the school with everyone walking out.
@tonyaahn540
2 жыл бұрын
I’m looking for a good Bible teaching church in Olympia. What church are you attending?
@lampsaltlight
2 жыл бұрын
Good for you! God bless your soul! To me, personally, the name of the school is a big giant red flag of itself. School of supernatural ministry??? Who are we kidding here? the prophets and the apostles didn’t need to go to a supernatural school to be able to do their ministry. You don’t “learn” supernatural power. It is given to you by God through the power of His Spirit at the right time and place.
@sharonlee2010
2 жыл бұрын
@@tonyaahn540 , Calvary Chapel Olympia, 10:00 AM on Sunday
@richardmorrisette8316
2 жыл бұрын
I lived in Redding for about 10 years. Did school, led worship at Bethel, met my wife, who’s from Redding there. Mark is the real deal. He’s done a lot for the whole Redding/Shasta County community. His words echo the thoughts of many that have left, myself and my wife included. Loved this dialogue, gentlemen.
@Jiidwag
2 жыл бұрын
Took me 8years to wake up from the Bethel Cult culture. I now stay as far away from anyone I use to spend years doing life with. They are a bunch of sick and abusive people. Even their local church plants i spent time with are very very sick and twisted individuals who will abuse you, speaking from 8yrs of experience
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you sir!
@watchwomandebrajesusistheway
2 ай бұрын
I lived in Corning and Chico. I was invited to go to church with a friend at Bethel a number of years back. Glad I never did.
@gerrismith4570
2 жыл бұрын
American Gospel brought me to the Lord. Being raised Catholic I was never going to be good enough to get to God. I felt such JOY after watching American Gospel! Praise be to GOD!
@alstroemeria227again4
2 жыл бұрын
Praise God!
@ambassadorkees
2 жыл бұрын
Great! When lies are exposed, the truth will set people free.
@RebeccaJeffersonOAC
2 жыл бұрын
Praise the Lord! That series of movies is great. They have American Gospel: Christ Crucified and American Gospel: Spirit and Fire also.
@eeg122
2 жыл бұрын
@@RebeccaJeffersonOAC where does one watch all these? I'm in europe and don't know where to watch. Thank you.
@AnonYmous-qw1yk
2 жыл бұрын
The American Gospel documentary is Calvinist. Calvinism perverts Bible truths such as perverting Eternal Security into perseverance of the saints. It is also works salvation repackaged by saying fruit comes before believing in Jesus. Calvinism denies free will and makes God the author of sin: kzitem.info/news/bejne/w4aA3aONfal4jYY
@HeatherEndeavors
2 жыл бұрын
Glad others are speaking up. I was there in the school 2009-2010 and had A LOT of questions about why what they taught was out of context with scripture. No one could give me logical or biblical answers. I spoke up and confronted leadership openly, publicly with the Bible during 2nd year. Then I was given an ultimatum, submit to authority or leave (even if it completely contradicts scripture I was told). That's when I left.
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for speaking out. It appears that the Bethel ultimatum of “submitting to authority” is their modus operandi for shutting down anyone that questions the Bethel teachings
@jenna338
8 ай бұрын
Good for you!!!!!! Hallelujah!!
@ellentuthill1800
8 ай бұрын
Good for you -- both for confronting leadership with the truth of the Bible, and for leaving when they said you'd have to submit to THEIR manmade authority or leave.
@destinycoach5
6 ай бұрын
What did they teach that didnt line up with scripture? Can someone get some specific details down because i cannot take this kind of info "they teach off scripture' to those still blinded. I need some actual specific details. Like when Jenn Johnson said the holy Spirit is a blue genie. Even that will be dismissed as her joking around. Pls those whi know list off some false teaching. I find this discussion disappointing.
@Mi12So
5 ай бұрын
@@destinycoach5 Bill Johnson in his Book Heaven invades Earth, Chapter 11 .2 (i have to translate from German, so it is only the Meinung oft his words and not the one you will find in the english Version of the Book) Bill quotes Luke 5:6-8 and Bill explaind, „Who had told him that he was a sinner? Nowhere does one read that there was any preaching and admonition on the ship that day - only that there was real fishing. So how did he come to this conclusion? It was the miracle. Power reveals. It draws a line in the sand and forces people to divorce.“ Now read Luke 5:2-4 and you will discover, that Jesus came in to the boat of Peter to preach. I think the teaching of Bill Johnson is unbiblical. In the metioned Book you can find more of this.
@MountainMrs
2 жыл бұрын
I used to be heavily into bethel and Todd white teachings. Thank God my eyes were open to the truth and He completely changed my heart to the truth. I also watched American gospel during the time my heart was changing and I can't be more grateful. 🙏 Thank you Messed up Church. I watch you you guys all the time. Keep up the amazing work. I think this will be maybe your most important interview yet.
@brett7086
7 ай бұрын
How did you get out? Did someone talk to you about it or was it just Gods will to open your eyes one day?
@robynpayne9448
2 ай бұрын
What's your issue with Todd White? To me, it seems that he teached Identity, in order to walk like Jesus. But not works, first.
@scottgonzalez7574
2 жыл бұрын
I remember our old NAR leader bragging that his name was on a “heretical watchdog list.” He was basically saying “those calling me out are just religious but our church has the “more of God, we’re much more spiritual than they are.” So prideful. When people from their congregation confronted or questioned leadership and were considering leaving the church, the leaders would call that “We’re burning away the chaff.” We look back now and see how dysfunctional and manipulative that was.
@caroleimani9754
2 жыл бұрын
Or else they say, "Carole probably wasn't really saved in the first place, or else she would have stayed here."
@Window4503
2 жыл бұрын
Classic church of Sardis
@paulbriggs3072
Жыл бұрын
@@Window4503 As I recall the sin of the church of Sardis was no deeds.
@orzot
2 жыл бұрын
My former church got sucked in to the Bethel movement, I attended the first School of The Prophets in 2006 in Redding. Ultimately this destroyed our fellowship and wrecked the faith of many individuals along the way. Bad theology is a cruel taskmaster.
@watchwomandebrajesusistheway
2 ай бұрын
Glad you are saying former church. I hope you found a good bible believing church.
@jerryfournier2805
2 ай бұрын
My pastor got sucked into the Bethel movement and we didn't know. He kept it to himself. He started a school of ministry which seemed harmless to us deacons. As more and more people "graduated" he became more open about the teachings. I had never heard of NAR. One night people were praying for him up in the front of the church and somehow he became elevated to an Apostle. That was the end for me.
@orzot
2 ай бұрын
@@watchwomandebrajesusistheway Thank you for your kind response. It's been over 10 years. I guess I'm one of those believers who followed Jesus right out of the church. Ted Brooks, the former tongue talking pastor, has a lot of good insight.
@Raminakai
2 жыл бұрын
I think what he speaks about is so important. I joined a church at 21- that was a mess. I was so confused- but just wanted to get close to Jesus- and not play people games. It took me a while to figure out that many of the people in leadership had mental health issues that were not dealt with as well as childhood wounds not healed. Boundaries were awful. I eventually joined CR at another church and got myself straightened out and worked on my own issues. It was hard work- and required some mature mentors who I am so grateful for. I would have been great to have a supernatural healing - but no, it was time, a process and hard work- trusting God to help me through it . I remember being wounded by all the stuff going on and can relate to my own issues fueling my need to people please and I didn’t know healthy ways to protect myself, or deal with people. I think so many church leaders are unhealthy individuals that use human manipulation. If the leadership is off the whole church is. I am glad I had those experiences though, because God taught me so much about what not to be.
@Marlaina
2 жыл бұрын
We’re all broken and unhealthy people and Christians have mental health issues as well. The difference is that Christians have the Holy Spirit within them leading them and convicting them when they do wrong, and we are fully capable of doing wrong. There is repentance and forgiveness from God and those who were wronged by them must forgive as well. We all must daily fight against our flesh and our fallen bodies that have yet to be perfected.
@machtnichtsseimann
Жыл бұрын
@@Marlaina - And how do we "fight against our flesh"? There is this paradox of how Christians can be ever so blind to the Holy Spirit's counsel and conviction, THOUGH they believe they are filled and walking in the Spirit. Which is where pride of the Flesh is more present than previously thought, and unless leadership teaches a greater openness and humility as to one's resistance / arrogance / fear of rejection / narcissim, etc., then it can be VERY easy to NOT heed the Holy Spirit's guidance. In my intensive experience with some well-known Charismatic ministries the narcissism in leadership mixed with twisted scriptural interpretations of "authority" and "submission" led to an all-too-common act of denying one's errors / sins. Furthermore, these unhealthy examples of leadership furthered a patronizing adult-child hierarchy among adults! Not talking actual children here, but a childish dependency upon "shepherds". P.S. - Unfortunately, I had too many bad experiences with Charismatic leaders/pastors who were anti-intellectual / anti-education. Anything can go too far, including being rational and thinking critically, but to be so judgmental about such pursuits is patently foolish. Then we wonder how so many un-educated teachers and preachers can get Scriptures wrong, or basically be false teachers. Well, the charlatans take advantage of their ignorant communities to exploit them of their autonomy and $$$.
@ladybug5422
Жыл бұрын
I am so grateful for this discussion. I was saved in a NAR church in the 80's before NAR was on the radar, or titled. This video was extremely therapeutic for me because I could not explain my experience there. I received so many wonderful things in those days, yes we had "holy laughter" and all kinds of manifestations of "the Spirit". I withdrew from basic bible churches because I felt that this new movement was the new thing God was doing on the earth. 7 mountain mandate was taught and I even sent my daughter to the church's school "Dominion". I honestly know that the Spirit of God was really moving in me, and others, it was a powerful time. However, things began to trouble me and I had a lot of questions but not the words for those questions really, like something was wrong but I couldn't put my finger on it. I now see the fatal flaw of following the "Spirit" absent from the foundation of God's word, and slipping into the flesh of emotion. There's something strange I can't explain how what feels like the move of the Spirit can be manipulated by _____ I am not sure, the enemy, the flesh, both? It all made sense until it didn't. I still cannot express fully the contradictions I feel. I cannot say that God was not in it, it's like it was a gift given, but man corrupted it by elevating above the word into a special understanding only "some" could understand. It began to feel elitist actually looking back. I'm grateful to be in a solid bible teaching church now. We live one day at a time, I need to keep focused on how to walk out my salvation TODAY with scripture, not some far off intangible hope of my importance of a dominion on this earth.
@Swisschoc123
7 ай бұрын
Was this church in Kansas City??
@alstroemeria227again4
2 жыл бұрын
I came out of a church which was embracing Bethel and Hillsong teachings, gimmicks, structure of services and atmosphere. The last straw was the pastor saying that the Bible was about us and that Todd Bentley was a sound preacher. 😵💫 After a year, I found a small biblical Baptist church with expository preaching and a dam of feelings broke in my heart. I realized that I was a part of a church that was spiritually abusive and I was a part of a cult of personality. As I looked back, I realized I was a part of something really bad because I had found a real church. The place I was at was not a real church. It took years to heal.
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
So glad you got out. God bless you.
@Jay-zx5hx
2 жыл бұрын
What year did they mention Todd Bentley ?
@alstroemeria227again4
2 жыл бұрын
@@Jay-zx5hx 2016
@KMT65
2 жыл бұрын
I would add a word of caution. I was in a "biblical" Baptist church for decades. Be very careful if your type of Baptist church (there are dozens of types) teaches "legalism". Elevating tradition over Bible truth. Including, but not limited to Bible version (kjv only) worship music, women in pants, and the list goes on and on. Error, is always error, rather it comes from Bethel or a Baptist Church. It's about control, just Bethel does it one way and the "Independent Fundamental Baptist" do it another way. True faith has always been about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, not a set of "rules" set up outside of scriptural mandates. I pray your Baptist Church is balanced and biblically sound.
@alstroemeria227again4
2 жыл бұрын
@@Jay-zx5hx 2016. Why do you ask?
@jann4sundown
2 жыл бұрын
Promises of healing that never came have hurt my family. Where is the simple and pure Gospel of Jesus Christ? We did not attend Bethel, but went to churches connected to it. Thank you for sharing the truth about doctrine which has strayed from biblical truths and is man-centered. I love Jesus and want people to be saved through Him, and this false stuff does great harm in confusing everyone.
@savtelly3817
2 жыл бұрын
Definitely needs a part 2. There is so much more to talk about! Great interview! Thanks for your courage. It’s hard speaking out against cults because they discredit you so much and attack with venom!
@Obi-Wan81
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly. Wish I'd heard questions on the Glory Clouds...
@thestraightroad305
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your dedication to this issue, Steve. And admiration for Paulette’s support in building your channel and audience. Appreciation for your guest also. I still deal with the fallout from similar experiences from many years ago. God is good and so faithful to those who earnestly seek Him
@Weissguys6
2 жыл бұрын
This was such a good interview. Mark was humble and honest and incredibly interesting. Thank you so much, Steve, for having him on.
@christianwilson9677
3 ай бұрын
Thank you both for this frank and honest conversation. I attended a few churches affiliated with Bethel and Global Awakening and was left perplexed by some “spiritual experiences” but thirsty for consistency to Christ’s teaching and consistency to historical Christianity. I became Eastern Orthodox 5 years ago - I am very happy where I landed. As I study the ancient Church Fathers they often warn of not trusting spiritual experiences that it leads to “prelest” or spiritual self deception. Though God worked with me in the times with these groups, there is an inherent spiritual danger there.
@boomroasted87
2 жыл бұрын
Bravo Mark Mack! I worked at Bethel for 3 years and I can completely validate what Mark says about Kris and his rude/brash personality. I have some stories of my own. Thanks for speaking the truth Mark!
@lilpoohbear653
2 жыл бұрын
I have been a christian for over 37 years...been involved in every kind of ministry available to me during those years. I love the Word of God, committed to Christ. I stopped in to visit my old church...long story...but anywho...they were showing a video "teaching" by Kris and I had never seen or heard of him before that. I was thinking the whole time...who is this joker? Wow, he really thinks a lot of himself...then the church took time to "read" a guys past on the stage in front of the class (supposedly "gifts of the spirit")...just like the psychic shows do...I left grieved, cried that night over how far downhill that church has gone and have never been back. It was very demonic...YES DEMONIC. What the brother said in this video is that very few even read their Bibles so they believe whatever is told to them...as long as they throw the words "spirit" ,"jesus" , "love" into the word salad
@dcnfamilyify
2 жыл бұрын
I was in a Jesus people cult with very wrong doctrine, yet God still healed and provided for us all the time. However, when tragedies struck out faith was shaken and we had to realize we were subject to the harsh realities of this world just like everyone else. That made me look at our beliefs and question the dictator/ leader. And we left!
@KristiLEvans1
2 жыл бұрын
I love this man. I’m SO GRATEFUL he’s speaking out. Bethel has influenced very good, earnest Christians in my life. This is valuable.
@sistercelestial5660
2 жыл бұрын
Amazing when one reads the Bible with the Holy Spirit and gets away from man's interpretations. Makes these churches very easy to discern. Thank you for a great interview. Great job!!
@joanseaton1709
Ай бұрын
I have been asking myself this question over and over. Why are Christians not praying for discernment???
@j.c.5999
2 жыл бұрын
Great interview. Sadly it seems that so many churches nowadays have a board made up of "yes" men. The pastor is never challenged or held accountable.
@CalebcallowayFGW
2 жыл бұрын
My fiancée broke off our engagement because I refused to join her in the worship of Bethel. She began listening to bills podcast and was drawing in more and more. She refused to see the truth from the scripture I shared contradicting bills sermon. Will you pray with me in that Sarah will have her eyes opened to this false movement.
@lilpoohbear653
2 жыл бұрын
you may have dodged a bullet my friend,,,Yes, pray for her eyes to be opened...but beware
@propheticwithangelalynne1111
Жыл бұрын
YES praying for Sarah and all the rest of them.YHWH GOD will bless you for not giving in to those false counterfeit spirits, Caleb. Good job!
@selahrichardson
Жыл бұрын
Pray and fast.
@ferrosjewellers4558
Жыл бұрын
Caleb, it's been 5 months since you posted..can you give a report back please.
@Newlaw289
Жыл бұрын
Dude, you really want to commit your life to a girl that can't follow your lead? Considered yourself lucky. What would you do if y'all were married? That'd be a mess.
@paigewalker8261
2 жыл бұрын
Mark, thank you!!! I had the privilege of getting to know Mark and his family for four years while I lived in Redding and I am so thankful I did. The Mark you see in this conversation is exactly who he is. More important, I am eagerly waiting part two of this conversation. If it already is out there, please direct me to it. Thank you again!!!!
@gabymeyer8003
2 жыл бұрын
This was an excellent interview. When it got to the bit when Bill Johnson parachuted in his Weaverville buddy, not a Bethel member, I thought this is only going to go one way, and it did. I've seen this covert takeover happen in the secular world, as well as in the ministry we served in ten years ago. A headstrong leader bringing in personal friends, shutting down debate and talking a lot about "honor". It is all very dishonorable in fact. The firefighter analogy is very apt. The inner workings of these powerful and influential churches should be exposed when there is a pattern of dishonesty and hypocrisy. Looking forward to the next interview.
@goodmorningsundaymorning4533
Жыл бұрын
Happens a lot in companies and businesses. It never ends well. And when I see a takeover happen I instantly look for another job.
@taranschilg-zy3uz
2 ай бұрын
Kris Vallotton publicly embarrassed me in front of the entire Bethel congregation, the overflow audience, and on Bethel TV at one of their high-profile conferences at the beginning of 2020. At the time, it completely shut me down to being open to anything else the conference had to offer. I am thankful for it now because it was the catalyst for me leaving the charismatic church.
@RCGWho
26 күн бұрын
What happened?
@taranschilg-zy3uz
25 күн бұрын
@@RCGWho I attended the 2020 Bethel Prophetic Conference with my mom. During one of the sessions, Kris did something he often does in his services. I've been in a service with him before when he does this, where he says, "If you feel something going on with your head, like a buzzing sensation or maybe the onset of a headache, please stand." I wasn't feeling anything in my head, but I did sense a prompting from the Lord in my spirit, or perhaps I thought something was urging me to stand. Despite this, since nothing was happening in my head, I hesitated and didn't stand right away. Then, Kris pointed to the left side of the sanctuary and said, "Someone over here needs to stand." He then pointed to the middle and added, "Someone near the lights needs to stand." Each time he did this, a few people stood up. I prayed silently and asked the Lord, "If I'm supposed to stand, then have him point over here, and if no one else stands, I will." A moment later, Kris pointed to the right side of the sanctuary, where my mom and I were sitting, almost directly at me, and said, "Someone over here needs to stand." I glanced around and noticed that no one else had stood up, so I stood. Then he said, "Why do people do this? Why do people wait until I have to say something to stand?" He rolled his eyes, and everyone saw that it was me who stood. At the moment, I didn't think much of it, but afterward, I didn't really want to participate in anything else. That experience was the beginning of several events that made me realize how rude some of these men in ministry can be. It may not sound that bad, and it's hard to explain, but something shifted in me after that point.
@RCGWho
25 күн бұрын
@@taranschilg-zy3uz That's pretty weird. I would have felt shamed, too.
@jaquirox6579
2 жыл бұрын
This was a really great authentic, and real interview! I appreciate hearing about his boots on the ground experiences there. And I would love to see more in another video! 🙏🏽♥️🙏🏽
@hisservants8003
2 жыл бұрын
Praying for this gentleman and his wife. I hope they leave soon and find solid teaching. He can still reach out to his friends and show them that there are solid, loving churches they can join.
@jillandpeterwyper7884
2 жыл бұрын
This was so good and what I need for some close loved ones caught up in Bethel. My ex firefighter husband was agreeing and nodding at all the fire fighting analogies too....so true for the church too. Thanks again for all you do for Truth!!
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
Please tell your husband “Thanks” from a brother firefighter
@carolwilliams5337
3 ай бұрын
God moves even in the midst of bad doctrine and bad practices. He is far more gracious than we are.
@joanseaton1709
Ай бұрын
And when we recognize it we need to move on to a Bible teaching Church.
@barryvoorhies859
Ай бұрын
Thank you so much for sharing so honestly. God loves humility and always blesses it. May God bless you both because this has been a blessing to me. I am a pastor and I deal with sincere people who have been influenced by "Branhamism". He is the father of all these heresies. This has been very helful to me and I will share it with others.
@carleenpring3404
2 жыл бұрын
Hey Steve, Thank you for this episode. You and Mark just described my former church, when a minister was accepted to the role of Rector. Oh gosh, your conversation was EXACTLY what happened. His track record was flawed right from the get-go, but he was hired anyway! 5 years later and a trail of wreckage to boot, he left and now our retired men are trying to pick up the pieces as they wait for a new Rector. I'm shaking my head incredulously! Bless you heaps.
@kevinthompson2308
Жыл бұрын
There's this book called 'The Holy Bible' that, if read and studied, could save people a whole lotta time, heartache, pain and money.
@joanseaton1709
Ай бұрын
AMEN!!!
@levans3447
2 жыл бұрын
A few things came to mind as he spoke : people in very traumatic , or highly stressful situations are more vulnerable and easily deceived to the signs and wonders gospel due to an intense need to escape or be delivered out of the situation. What you said about the building program is a symptom in all denominations over the last 30 years . It literally became a fad to build these big mega churches. Talking about being glad people left the church , it made me think of the times I visited these type of churches how they loved to refer to those who question or doubt their theology as ” religious ” and really made that word a slur and at all costs you better not question , lest you become one with a ” spirit of religion” . I always left those churches troubled in my spirit even though i was truly seeking a closer relationship with my Lord .
@karenhayes1310
2 жыл бұрын
Bill Johnson came to our church in Onalaska, Wisconsin. Members of Bethel taught Sozo. This was about 2010 or earlier. I hear you loud and clear. I'm back in a Biblical-sound church in another state.
@52msdiane
4 ай бұрын
I went to a Sozo conference training but the man lady didnt show only her counterpart which I really questioned, so disappointed. Then at the end they had us all walk through their "fire tunnel" (all the people there) and then we had our own "sozo" session at the end. I was messed up for a long time! O Lord forgive me!!
@ryandb525
2 ай бұрын
@@52msdianeAmen. I was trained in that as well; very sad. Praise God for His mercy. 🙏
@soulsound777
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this episode. It meant a lot to me and my wife. It sounded you were discussing the very church we came out of a few months ago. Same same same stuff...! Thanks. Now we know we were not delusional when we thought there were really somethings going on that were really off.
@Swena76
2 жыл бұрын
So glad you did this. Hoping there is a part 2 and/or more of these. Adam Mack's pinned comment is incredible; I'm glad he wrote it. I bet a lot of the people at Bethel will need therapy afterwards for the various abuses they've experienced (spiritual, emotional, psychological, verbal etc). I pray Bethel is brought down. Thanks for your video. ♥ from Canada.
@mmcg4782
14 күн бұрын
Bravo. Thank you for this honest discussion. My husband and I spent 4 years in a church who called themselves Bethels sister church. We met all of these men personally over those years. Eventually ended up on staff, but that didn't last long. There were so many red flags. But Eventually the staff turned on us. All while preaching that "relationship" is key. It took awhile to sort out the truth. We ultimately are so,so grateful to Jesus for rescuing us from all of this mess. Thank you for sharing your honest experiences. So much rang true for us also.
@Evinruderascal
2 жыл бұрын
The chant of greed...that is a classic. You are spot on. 100% correct
@litrugia
2 жыл бұрын
What is meant by the chant if greed?
@johnnyhelms9909
2 жыл бұрын
I can relate. I was pretty involved in the Charismatic Movement for nine years (1974-83) and early on I would raise my hands until it hurt during the services just to impress the pastor. And worst of all, I created a little phrase in fake tongues that I would use when standing shoulder-to-shoulder with other charismatics so they would think I had the baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is frightening how easily I fell into the deceptions of that movement. After 48 years as a disciple of Christ, I still have to be on my toes with my nose in the word to catch myself. Thanks for the great info.
@paulc7190
2 жыл бұрын
why try to impress the Pastor? Don't you think you were a young babe in Christ so felt obligated to things you didn't have to do?
@johnnyhelms9909
2 жыл бұрын
@@paulc7190 Yes, of course.
@susandumbill8805
Жыл бұрын
It's also frightening how easy it is to fool those around you because you all have such poor discernment.
@goodmorningsundaymorning4533
Жыл бұрын
😂 You've got to be joking.
@bazkib
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, after coming out of this evil I found it helpful to write about it and talk it all through.
@PoetiqueMs
2 жыл бұрын
When this happened at our church, I was always the person left standing amidst others who had fallen out. It made me feel awful. I thought something was wrong with me, even doubted my salvation.
@reneerosie
2 жыл бұрын
I moved to Redding, to attend Bethel in April 2014. I was there for 7 years. The crazy at Bethel only got worse over the years. I'd love to hear Marks thoughts on the whole trying to raise Kalley Heiligenthal's (worship leader) daughter from the dead, and the worship vigils that were held every night for at least a week. And also angel cards AKA "Christian" tarot cards.
@7pinky791
2 жыл бұрын
At least they dare to believe, no disgrace in putting your faith to where the rubber meets the road! That’s courage! Why would you even cited, taunting the parents for their faith. That is heartless!
@reneerosie
2 жыл бұрын
@@7pinky791 Who/what do they have faith in is the question. At Bethel it's ALL about them, about them trying to get God to do what they want Him to do. Twisting the Bible so it says what they want it to say. It's not about obeying Scripture, listening to Him, or abiding in Him.
@7pinky791
2 жыл бұрын
@@reneerosie You tell me, you were there for 7 years!
@7pinky791
2 жыл бұрын
@@reneerosie Hmmm! So for 7 long years, you were 'trying' to get God to do what you want Him to do. 'Twisting' the Bible so it says what you want it to say. It's not about obeying Scripture, listening to Him, or abiding in Him?
@reneerosie
2 жыл бұрын
@@7pinky791 Obviously I'm talking about the leadership. After staying for the first couple of 'sermons' I only ever stayed for worship as their teaching, and interpretation of the Bible is way off. I was in Redding for 7 years. I didn't go to Bethel for 7 years. I only attended Bethel for about a year but I knew people who went there so I knew how much worse it got over the years. You clearly just want an argument.
@Mandsamro
2 жыл бұрын
As someone who attended the Airport Fellowship church .. during the ‘90’s and Catch the Fire ( what it is now known as) .. back then I wasn’t sure what was going on. I just saw crowds of people all seemingly feeling the Holy Spirit .. coming out of a Roman Catholic background it was more than shocking .. I gravitated to it at the time bc I was crying out for God in a very dark period of my life.. looking back it did serve me but I was also not as theologically learned as I am now 20 years later… I always like to hear other peoples opinions on the Toronto Blessing .. thank you for this video ❤️❤️❤️
@markdonnaabbott3977
2 жыл бұрын
Long for truth with Danny and Robin Long do some great work about Toronto blessing. I also get you when you go from legalism to hyper grace. Ex Seventh Day Adventist here lol
@Ravel1299
2 жыл бұрын
Mandy which Catch the fire church did you go to? I went to one in NC and it was disturbing and weird. The lead pastors abandoned it too. Duncan Smith and Carlos Rodriguez abandoned the cult after creating it.
@Mandsamro
2 жыл бұрын
@@Ravel1299 I went to the one here in Toronto where I believe it started . It was originally Airport Fellowship Church ( bc it is on Airport Rd) and became Catch the Fire. It drew big crowds back in the ‘90’s. I was a teenager and there were hundreds and hundreds of teenagers attending .. to us it was this new Spirit filled experience where God was moving… at the time I felt really excited about being there I had just lost my mom to cancer I was hurting I felt far from God and this experience ( in my mind) was God reaching out to me to draw me back. Looking back 20 years later I see how weird and ungodly it really was. It was a bunch of hyped up charismatics acting strange in the Name of the Lord … it was not Biblical .
@Ravel1299
2 жыл бұрын
@@Mandsamro I totally agree!! I visited that church too in Toronto on a "missions trip". I am glad to still be in the Lord, praise God you and I have been delivered from the lies and manipulation
@KevinSmith-gu7fb
2 жыл бұрын
Wasn't it actually called The Airport Vineyard? Anyway, I visited in April 1995 as a teenager during a youth event called "Fresh Wind." Even to this day, I still think of it as one of the best experiences of my life.
@kramsdrawde8159
2 жыл бұрын
At the very hardest times in my life I also have written down the things most perplexing and troubling, things which you can't vocalize in a cogent conversation with another person. Writing in a chronological fashion allows you to make sense of things and sort them out and also edit by adding details as needed... It really does help, the therapuetic value is huge...
@barbaraburke2937
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you both, this is more than just informational, but very helpful and true as well. God bless you both too.
@ICanRideMiBikeWithNoHandleBars
15 күн бұрын
Just came across this video. I attended Bethel Cleveland for sometime. I’ll never forget Bill speaking at one of the campuses, he was reading Christ’s words in one of the Gospels. **He expounded on the Words of Jesus** and got upset that the congregation didn’t ooh and ahh over his “insight” into the plain words of Christ. This made me sick, and still does. It’s a reminder of why I left. It was the last Protestant church I went to, because this kind of preaching is found throughout the charismatic movement. It took me nearly a decade before I went back to church. Glory to God, I came to the Eastern Orthodox Church and found rest and healing for my soul. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on our souls.
@mikemoguin1745
2 жыл бұрын
This is great! I've seen videos you've done exposing Bethel before. But an interview with someone who has been on their staff giving insight is a plus! I got caught up in their deception a decade ago. One year later, I traveled there for an event and had a bad experience (which I thought was great then). I really had to rely on God to get me through it as I battled a lot of nightmares after I returned home. As I time went on, I eventually repented, my attitude towards Bethel changed and I turned to the likes of John MacArthur, Justin Peters, Chris Rosebrough, yours, and others that are Biblically sound.
@JuliexSteadman
2 жыл бұрын
..unfortunately i wouldnt say that MacArthur is biblically sound. The gifts are definitely for today but the likes of Bethel and others go beyond scripture to get more power.... in their grave soaking and physics of heaven.... Furthermore the calvanistic theology they are into contradicts how the very first church fathers interpretated scripture. David Bercot specialises in this, he has a dictionary and has written books... this is his video on what did the ealry church fathers believe about salvation kzitem.info/news/bejne/q7CnqopvanN3g6Q Leighton Flowers - Did the early church fathers teach, saved by faith alone kzitem.info/news/bejne/uoqJq5xnqGp5l3o Going back to dominion theology and the NAR, Clifford HIll in the UK refused to write the forward to the Kansas City Prophets book because he discerned an evil spirit operating among them.. He wrote a book in the 1990's re the history of this entitled Blessing the church, you can get it here: prophecytoday.uk/general/item/877-blessing-the-church-archive.html Clifford Hill's church was the livest and most balanced church Ive attended as a new christian in the early 1980's. Recently (2019) Clifford Hill and David Hathaway organised prayer days in the UK. Hill was unhappy with the NAR lot who were invited without his knowledge. This was his resulting article: prophecytoday.uk/comment/church-issues/item/1351-the-new-apostolic-reformation-an-overview.html
@Charity-vm4bt
2 жыл бұрын
John MacArthur is not biblically sound. He waffles back and forth. His theology has been exposed. He is arrogant and wrote his own Bible. His lead male staff person has been accused of harassment by several women.
@lydiatostenson2326
2 жыл бұрын
Your content on Bethel is always my favorite. When he said “Fire Tornado” I immediately laughed and said out loud, quoting from one of your other bethel videos “A freak of nature, the Firenado” lol great video as always! Again, LOVE the bethel content!! 👍
@goodmorningsundaymorning4533
Жыл бұрын
😂 I can't believe ppl fall for this crap. Have they never cracked open a Bible? I don't understand.
@kaybrown4010
2 жыл бұрын
Please keep this conversation going. Well done, Steve.
@jasonmillwood2893
2 жыл бұрын
This was such a great interview!! Thank you both for this conversation, I hope there is a part 2!
@thomasr.3592
2 жыл бұрын
This was a great interview. I lived in California and wanted to go to Bethel church untill I watched both American Gospel DVD's. I also recommend Spencer Smith on KZitem.
@Obi-Wan81
2 жыл бұрын
Spencer is another level. He doesn't hold back in telling the truth!
@Mary_Kraensel
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you, Gentlemen!! The Lord graciously kept me from the WoF/NAR and post-modern influences (even through all my false conversions), so I can't even pretend to relate to any of this. Nevertheless, I'm grateful for His saving grace in the lives of those who have gone through these experiences. May God continue to bless you.
@sharonlouise9759
2 жыл бұрын
Steve, I must say that I love your spirit. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You don't demean other people's experiences. I appreciate that very much. Your demeanor is one of humility. God bless your ministry as you move forward.
@roberthubertus7438
7 ай бұрын
Dear Sharon. I agree with you 100%. God bless you. 🙏
@jaynefox8864
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much. We have changed church and thank you we are humbled and so grateful for Gods mercy in helping us get out of this ‘system’ of church
@facepalmingreformer8723
2 жыл бұрын
Great job of just letting him talk, Steve. Wonderful interview!
@Símbäh5291
2 жыл бұрын
This is great work! I came out of all this crap a few years back in MD & PA and it’s a lot of the same stuff. It’s good to hear it come from a man who was in the center of where all of it got started. Great work sir!
@GGtba1646
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this interview Steve, this was really helpful. Thanks Dave for being willing to talk about these things, I’m sure it’s not easy.
@OldHwy90
2 жыл бұрын
There is a certain level of comfort that the Kozar family provides that allows for this kind of "real talk" ..that place of comfort is only found within The Holy Body of Christ Jesus. We are grateful To The Most High God in Heaven for you both ❤
@KD_9494
2 жыл бұрын
I live in NorCal so thank you for being a firefighter for our beautiful state! Much respect to you! 🙏
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Kelsey
@TheIceManCooketh
2 жыл бұрын
Steve I’m 23 minutes in and this is a good video. Anyone who doesn’t like it needs to wake up, grow up, or just go away. Keep up your good work!
@davidforsythe8231
2 жыл бұрын
Yes if someone doesn't agree they need to ... fill in the blank. Sounds like a well balanced approach. I know the ins and outs of bethel type theology. I can debate every point and disagree with some of both bethel and this channels theology. However I am not prideful nor arrogant enough to say my way is 100 right and others are wrong. Listening to people you don't agree with is part of authentic growth.
@revtom58
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for doing this video Steve. I can totally relate. I too had served in leadership as an "elder." I took the role as the "skeptic" and whenever I questioned something, I was basically shut down as if any decisions that were brought before the leadership had already been decided by the Sr. Pastor and his son-in-law (who is now the lead pastor). Basically they went around the table and asked what we thought, but knowing the decision was already made behind closed doors, our thoughts and opinions were just a matter fo formality to say we were presented the information. No formal votes were ever taken, just a consensus from the members. These were clear warnng signs as to where the church was going. More and more influencers like Chuck Sheets, Tood White and TD Jakes were finding their way into the church doctrine and liturgy. It took me a few years to realize this was no longer a fit for me, and I left. I still love the people, just don't agree with the direction and method.
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Sir for being the skeptic. Srsly. I like to refer to it as the “gift of suspicion “
@dawnzimmerman6818
2 жыл бұрын
Tom - do you mean Dutch Sheets?
@revtom58
2 жыл бұрын
@@dawnzimmerman6818 Oops! Yes Dutch not Chuck. Thanks!
@lilpoohbear653
2 жыл бұрын
good because they are heretics...you can still love people and tell the truth...TRUTH
@oldgittarist
2 жыл бұрын
It's not just Bethel, many of us have experienced similar excesses in the wider 'neo- pentecostal movement' over the past fifty years. Bethel is just a distillation of these errors which seem to have accompanied the pentecostal movement historically.
@roberthubertus7438
7 ай бұрын
Amen! Coming from a Catholic background, I can relate 110%
@sjva7995
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for being so honest about what you lived and your motives and personal feelings. All this charismatic stuff has caused us such pain and confusion. I often felt blackmailed by those who claimed it was of the Holy Spirit and if you challenged whatever was weird, you were automatically a blasphemer etc. I have found peace as I have returned to a bible teaching church and reading the Word of God every day.
@johnelliot8153
2 жыл бұрын
Fascinating! Yes, part 2, please 🤲
@beanbag345
2 жыл бұрын
Great illustration about having to tear into a wall and break some things to find the fire, the source before everything burns down. Appreciate the interview, men, thank you!
@Stickythekid
2 жыл бұрын
I hope this is the direction your channel is going. I really like the long interview convo format.
@bonzeuscarranza2458
2 жыл бұрын
Truth be told. Yes and Amen. Shalom🕊🔥
@taylorself
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much to both of you. Please do another segment soon.
@geraldineregina7069
2 жыл бұрын
KV is strange indeed, and the confirmation keeps growing!! May God have mercy on us as we walk this walk!!
@Coconutoilcrazy
2 жыл бұрын
Where did Kris Valletton get his theological training? Does Bethel Church have any crosses in the church or outside the church, indicating it is a church? HELLO! Mega churches are not about God/Jesus. They are a business, all about the money
@StevenKozarMessedUpChurch
2 жыл бұрын
Neither Kris Vallotton or Bill Johnson have any theological training. None.
@barbs1298
2 жыл бұрын
Is a cross necessary? I've never seen having to have a cross in a church in the Bible.
@InTruthNLove
8 ай бұрын
Why do you need theological training when you we need the true Holy Spirit?
@jdoodle607
2 жыл бұрын
Mate what you said about the fire in the walls and having to knock them down to save the house got me at where I’m at right now and made so much sense and realise it’s ok if everything is in pieces just now.
@denverbilyeu2172
2 жыл бұрын
I am a data specialist for a school district and recently left a church I had been attending that has become very charismatic. The big thing for me was I pointed out that if the Bethel theology is correct the data would be overwhelming. The response was there are healings. I respond you are not counting misses (all those not healed) checking on other variables (medical care) and quality of evidence (anecdotes don’t mean much) I then used the example of staff members, elders, and others considered being very spiritual never being healed of visible ailments (crippled, disabled from birth, hearing aides, etc.) Studies are sparse but every one I have found has not found any spiritual group having better outcomes than any other and intercession does no better than placebo.
@trevorsimpson3452
9 ай бұрын
Thank you for this conversation - full length and unedited means the full picture and it's so helpful.
@brettmagnuson8318
2 жыл бұрын
Back when I was 13 or 14 my church did a post service prayer ministry and I can affirm how you felt (wanting to experience what others were experiencing and not wanting the person praying to feel like they failed). 100% exactly how I felt and what I was thinking. None of it was God working.
@davidforsythe8231
2 жыл бұрын
This is a person's personal issue. I see others having a deeper reaction to the lord in no way makes me feel pressure to do the same. Peer pressure and someone giving in to what they perceive others want is mental health issues that will manifest at any other church just in different ways
@brettmagnuson8318
2 жыл бұрын
@@davidforsythe8231 do you think children mimicking what they see adults doing is a mental health issue?
@davidforsythe8231
2 жыл бұрын
@@brettmagnuson8318 no I think it's children being children. But if you're regarding them play copying an experience they have seen adults doing I know plenty of times at a Baptist youth camp kids where play Baptizing. We corrected them. No different than a charismatic raised children doing the same. Also by teenage years if raised in church you are fully capable of playing the man's approval game bc its honestly what kids have seen. They full well know how to go through the motions in any organization. I have been a youth pastor with plenty of experience in both Baptist and charismatic church's. Can tell you both Set of kids had the same issues. Just expressed differently based on what they have seen. I was raised Pentecostal. I never felt pressured to "give" in. Mainly due to having a very saved but non religious Dad that taught me the importance of being genuine in all things including corporate worship.
@PArsenec
2 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate you, Steve Kozar. You are so kind. Thank you.
@kerriferguson2023
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much gentlemen. A really excellent interview.
@GodsgalMN
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, I agree. Bethel has been off the rails for quite some time. Unfortunately there are many other churches with these same issues. Ty.
@deceptionsdemise
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you both for such a great interview. These videos are extremely helpful. God bless!
@debraseiler4148
2 жыл бұрын
Wow thank you for this interview! Very informative!
@Rszyman
Жыл бұрын
It's been a while since I have hung on to every word in a video. Fascinating and gripping testimony.
@serving4jesus989
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for sharing. I needed to hear this.
@Robert1849Breadstone
Ай бұрын
Excellent video, as a former staff member from MorningStar Ministries... I get what the guy is saying.
@Robert1849Breadstone
Ай бұрын
LOL, Kris Vallotton reminds me of David Yarnes.
@maureenvanheerden8076
2 жыл бұрын
This elder is correct so many people have experienced the same and Jesus took us out. I felt the same as the Elder. However the tragedy there are do many mega people that will not put their foot in a church because of this. However just to encourage people there are definitely true pastors Christians and churches in the world
@iw9338
Жыл бұрын
so sorry for your heartache and pain. all who were abused spiritually by a church or pastor, im praying for you. God loves you more than you know.
@joelsplawn5933
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you both so much.
@russianaloha4576
6 ай бұрын
Im so blessed i was Never forced into any religion! 🙏 Im a proud athiest 💞 Im already skeptical enough about religion but i will say it is nice to hear the scammers get revealed! Keep on callin em out! 🙏💞🙏
@johnnilan8240
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks Mark for opening up about the smoke in Bethel. I have had to deal with Chris V’s who are too super spiritual leading to abuse. Only wish you could have pressed the nose when you were an elder. Too often “elders” are picked for administrative acumen and not for breadth of the Holy Spirit’s infilling.
@juditharsenault2131
Жыл бұрын
I went to a Word of Faith church for a few years. The drive was too long for my little daughter because she used to get car sick. I got more and more uncomfortable there because they were kind of flakey. But then I went to our local small town church and they had such little faith and victory. Went to another little local church and they had Bible studies but always had a guidebook that helped you interpret the scripture. I wish I could find a church that is balanced, teaches scripturally and has victory over the world.
@ethankaryadi37
2 жыл бұрын
Gee how long has it been since we’ve seen an interview on this channel? By my recollection, I believe it was since you interviewed your pastor all those years ago. God bless you.
@susang5445
2 жыл бұрын
Have seen this 'honoring ' teaching in 5 churches I have been to due to moving house over the past 25 years. It means " homour me, follow me, don't question me, how dare you even think such a thing???!!!" Discernment gets labelled judgement and we are told not to judge, lest we are judged. And don't forget to not touch the Lord's anointed, and tithe, give above your tithe for special blessing, seed offerings , love offerings... And we pull out poor old Melchizedek as our example. Can someone teach truth about him at all?
@ExposingBethel
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting fact. Pastor Ray Larson that was the pastor before Bill Johnson. His Adopted son was the head of C Peter Wagner's Ministry. Rays Adopted daughter married the Deam of Florida State University, and Rays wife Becky Passed away of Cancer around the time Ray stepped down from Bethel leaving the head pastor possition oven for around 9 months if my memory serves me correctly. By Kris Vallottons own testimony. 3 months after getting to Bethel he is $2.3million in debt. A Bethel board Member asks Kris not to file Bankruptcy for 6 months. Kris tells the board member he doesn't have enough faith to do that. The board member asks Kris to rely on the board members faith and kris reluctantly agrees not to file bankruptcy for 6 months. Within 6 months all $2.3 million has been forgiven by his lenders and he is at ZERO Debt.
@susanneohmes1044
2 жыл бұрын
My church was highjacked by the influence from a "reorganizing" seminar at Saddleback. The old solid core left, they knew, it split the church. The silence to not explain was actually to suppress the truth, though it sounds polite. It's good, even it the real motive was to suppress the truth, it protected many people. I was there, I was talked to, to not talk and rock the boat, it was control. Our church went through it and our christian school, though not one institution. The Toronto curse affected our community hugely...
@lindajohnson4204
2 жыл бұрын
The "evaluation", by faceless somebodies, that churches submitted themselves to, in Purpose-Driven, to see whether you are living up to your supposed purpose (as defined by the hidden judges), greatly resembles the cruel Social Credit system used in China. This is one of the sources of "thrown under the bus-trail of bodies left behind" leadership.
@lindajohnson4204
2 жыл бұрын
@Gospel Church & World Churches were to get their members to sign a document, a contract or covenant, that they were submitting themselves to a constant process of judgment as to their fulfillment of their purpose, by people whom were never identified. It was one of the reasons that _Purpose Driven Life_ was rejected so strongly by so many of us. Read the reporting on PDL from such concerned people as Sarah Leslie or many others at the time. Comb through the writing about PDL from the most reliable discernment people, and see what it was really about. Why would they ask us (demand us, if our church was going Purpose Driven) to submit to this process of review? It's a lot like Social Credits, since you're being evaluated, and whether you continue on with the "church", or get kicked to the side, depends on how you are judged on your purpose, and yeah, that's by unidentified people, and you're expected to just go along with that.
@lindajohnson4204
2 жыл бұрын
@Gospel Church & World "Heresy hunters" was a favorite accusation of Paul Crouch. It makes people who care enough not to sign off on something evil, and who don't want to lead other people into evil, sound like the Inquisition. It's more like combing the yard of a new house, for rusty nails, broken glass, shards of metal, or blasting caps, before you let your kids play in the yard (back when they used to play outside). Some of us know how disastrous false teaching can be to our faith.. We also do not want to be guilty of signing off on something destructive, letting other people think that we approve of a thing that they then trust, and eventually are done great harm by it. So you carefully check a new thing out with the Bible. The Bereans checked out the gospel preached by Paul with the Bible. You don't see Paul, the apostle, disparaging them as "heresy hunters", although they wanted to make sure that there was no heresy in what he said, before they accepted it. Paul was delighted that they did, and so was the Holy Spirit. Today's accusers of "heresy hunters" say NOT to test the spirits to see if they are of God, because that might encumber or otherwise step on the toes of the Holy Spirit. I don't think so, when you consider that the commandment to do so was inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is His idea..
@JuliexSteadman
2 жыл бұрын
@Gospel Church & World - well do some research then... ..your response is pretty cold to someone who has obviously been through a lot...
@kiwigirl1107
2 жыл бұрын
This was really interesting thank you. Good interview.
@crissyfox553
2 жыл бұрын
GREAT interview! Well done! Thank you for bringing information in a solid and dignified manner.
@derickrae
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent! I so enjoyed this video.
@quietday2
Жыл бұрын
Fascinating to hear from the inside of Bethel. Thank you so much for the interview. It helps make some sense out of the nonsense.
@JC-sj2pd
2 жыл бұрын
I went to a church in Potsdam NY for many years called CFC. They have borrowed and mimicked most of the things this man describes. It is run by the Rick Sinclair family and they use extreme peer pressure and music to control their congregation. They also use a technique call presbytery, which is basically sooth saying to fortune tell college kids and young adults so that they rely on it instead of Gods word as their source of truth. Im so glad God opened my eyes to the scriptures and rescued me from this place. I also thought about staying and sounding the alarm but my duty is to Shepard my family first so we left. But I will use every opportunity as God presents them to speak the truth so that others will get out of there.
@susanneohmes1044
2 жыл бұрын
I visited friends in Redding in 1998, people were dancing with flags throughout the congregants, totally wild....I felt weird. The lady who's guest I was, stated her church is changing and she didn't like what's going on....
@Laura-ed5kf
2 жыл бұрын
Wonderfully, patiently, and gently said…all of this. Probably the fairest critique of a movement in the Church. Thank you. I had an “experience” 15-years ago. It was real…I just don’t know if it was real at the hand of Jesus or something dark. I gave glory to God for the incident then, and today give all credit to God for saving me out of a time where I was treading toward death…but WAS what happened that dark night God..? He can tell me one day; for now, I no longer use it as part of my testimony. It was an experience unique to me. But the atonement and forgiveness and restoration of Jesus in my life at that time…that is NOT unique to me and an offer for all people who would put their faith in Christ. 🥹
@mmpapabear5150
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Laura.
@louisoost121
2 жыл бұрын
Was in a church in stellenbosch, South Africa. It was called Every Nation. I did a gap year for the church and about3 people I think left afrerwards to go to BSSM. They were never the same again. I talked to them and confronted them but later it was just falling on deaf ears. One girl/women started a school in South Africa later. It really broke my heart since I got to know these people.
@S.Carpenter
8 ай бұрын
Thank you both so much for talking about the Carr fire. My elderly mother was refusing to evacuate from that and it was very troubling to me. Also, I saw a very brief interview done on Bill Johnson as he was fleeing the city in a limo, and he could not be bothered, and all I could think was "well, these people live in fire country, yet there they are, calling down 'fire' in their services, I hope this makes them stop!" Of course it didn't. However when I mentioned the irony of this to a Christian friend of mine who lives way over in Georgia, he got all mad at me. He claimed I was saying that 'God sent that fire'. Well, that wasn't what I was saying, but what if that were true? Could we be sure it wasn't? I got mad enough at what Bethel taught and the kids they'd churn out who would roam the streets of Redding and when they found a kid who had stopped breathing, instead of calling 9-1-1, they gathered around the kid and prayed! I was just livid. So many thanks to the professional fire fighter (yes, I know, retired) for speaking about that and his analogies were great! God wouldn't tell us to ignore sin in our churches, in fact, Matt. 18 is all about church discipline, but Bethel wouldn't even TALK about it! Thank you, Steve, for this interview. I found it helpful and validating and comforting.
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