4:38 If you look at dogs, a pug is genetically different than a Great Dane or they wouldn’t look different. To narrow it down, if you breed a black pug to a black pug you will get mostly black pugs but you can get a fawn or brindle pug as well.. BUT if you keep breeding black pugs to black pugs and only keep the black offspring for breeding and another breeder does the same so you can have genetic diversity then you just keep selecting for black pugs you will find over many generations that the chances of having any other color diminish to close to zero. I think what Bill is saying is that if I want to buy a ybbb and have the best chance of it looking like the parents, then the more generations of similar looking parents it has behind it, the better chance of that offspring looking like the parents is. HOWEVER….since the females don’t show the colors they will pass on and there is SO much diversity even within the ybbb I think it is still a random draw as to what each individual will look like but in general they should all have ybbb traits and not look like a nosy bey for instance.
@ipardalis
Жыл бұрын
That’s why I think it is important to share every male sibling of your females so people can estimate the chances that she isn’t ybbb even coming from ybbb x ybbb x ybbb combos. Very well said on the pug bit!
@twoturtletom
Жыл бұрын
Restricting the breeding of animals that would interbreed in the wild seems like a recipe for inbreeding depression to me Bill. I can understand the demand for an animal with predicable color though. How well sustained are these separate color morphs in nature? Are they polygenic traits?
@ipardalis
Жыл бұрын
They don’t interbreed in the wild but they can breed in captivity. I replayed that part of the video - it was a bit ambiguous on that detail. Ambilobe is separated by a mountain range that runs north/south and the east/west populations don’t breed in the wild even though we just call them all Ambilobe because of the town in the middle. They’re technically two separate populations which have about 8 unique mtDNA mutations (1.6k-8k gens of separation since the last interbreeding in the wild).
@twoturtletom
Жыл бұрын
@@ipardalis that makes much more sense Bill! Thank you. 🙏🏻
@ipardalis
Жыл бұрын
I have noticed some tendency for blue bars to be a western Ambilobe trait and red bars to be more of an eastern Ambilobe trait (based on preliminary genetic testing on my animals last year). That highlands/eastern population actually runs up north almost to Diego Suarez where red bars are the norm too, so it makes sense for that to be a decent proxy.
@ipardalis
Жыл бұрын
They are polygenic and many of these combos are like mixing paint. Once it’s done, it’s done. White is never coming back unless you mix in true white like 10x over and over again lol.
@surfpanther
Жыл бұрын
I mean locality to me is a joke! Genetically there is zero difference! Yes you can have different sizes based on geographic location. But that doesn't mean they are branching off or are a subspecies. I mean all dogs are all the same genus and species, from poodles to great danes.... different colors different sizes, but they're all dogs of the same genus and species. Personally I dont have an issue with it... but the one issue I do have a problem with in the reptile and chameleon Community is the fact that people are trying to say they are genetically different, when in fact they are 100% not genetically different. Some people call different localities a subspecies... however mainstream science can't even give you an accurate answer when it comes to subspecies.( I asked this question to your guest on the podcast, and he didn't really have an answer) not to mention how accurate are the animals labeled that are imported? How many times have falsely labeled animals been paired up already.... I feel like at this point the effort try to keep locality separate is a pipe dream when it comes to Panther chameleons. Unless you're starting fresh with imported animals from an exporter that you know and trust.... kind of a long answer but kind of a touchy subject with a lot of people as well LOL
@ChameleonAcademy
Жыл бұрын
Once panthers are removed from the wild it is a complete subjective exercise on our part as to what to call them. That said, regardless of genetics, the perception of the customers makes all the difference in the world when they have to go to new homes. And since we have refined genetics to where we can reliably produce yellow bodied blue bar ambilobes and red bodied blue bar ambilobes we have created a valid distinction - at least for those in captivity. Though the distance between what we call Ambanja and what is actually sitting in the trees outside Ambanja may be very different.
@cctreptiles9882
Жыл бұрын
This is personal opinion and in no way trying to come at you however how is locality a joke genetically yes there may be no difference , however why wouldn’t there be locality’s when it’s visually represented that they are different I think with the whole ybbb paired to rbbb is wtvr it’s within the same locality however why would you want to cross ex: a nosy faly with a nosy tanikely when in the wild that would never happen making them different most of the times when you cross localities you end up with just mud colors besides the few that end up looking really nice I think locality matters and lines should be kept pure as you don’t see many crosses in the wild im with you on the whole subspecies part of it however there is definitely a visual difference within localities and there isn’t a reason to cross locales. Along with that genetically there is a difference between a dogs yes they are the same species but the genetic sequence is different if it wasn’t then you wouldn’t be able to test your dog to find out the breed. You also can now test your panther chameleons to see what locality it is proving that genetically there is a difference in the sequence of localities
@ipardalis
Жыл бұрын
There actually is a significant genetic difference among the locales that is measurable and shows that they don’t interbreed in the wild. There are a ton of unknowns in the captive population but we can look at wild specimens almost like a breed standard. If you can’t find a wild example, chances are, that captive specimen is a cross. So even with all the uncertainty of the import process and crosses created in captivity, you can work towards that wild standard from a breeding standpoint and that’s what many of the best breeders do.
@surfpanther
Жыл бұрын
@@cctreptiles9882 right well they are testing for genetic traits, like you can test dogs for different breeds even though all dogs have the same genus and species. So I understand that there might be different incomplete dominant genetic traits or codominant genetic traits or recessive genetic traits or double recessive genetic traits.... but there's no benefit or advantage to keeping them individualized! Dogs are a classic example of this! All you're doing is amplifying certain genetic traits.... all of them are in fact Panther chameleons and based on vegetation on where they live all of them obviously have the capability of producing colors that help them camouflage better in certain Geographic areas than others. The colors that are able to stay hidden better are the ones that are going to survive to reproduce, which produces patterns in certain Geographic areas.... you also have to understand genetics and genetic testing and what they are looking for. They're not analyzing the animals entire DNA sequence they're looking for specific traits.... none of them have branched off into a subspecies. All of them can still breed together because they are all the exact same species, with the only difference being color. Look at ball pythons. Huge Variety in the range of colors in the wild and obviously in captivity. The reason I say locality is a joke is because of the way the reptile Community uses it to differentiate between animals that have zero genetic difference as a genus and species. Now within that species, you get mutations in the form of recessive genes but that hardly makes it a different locality or subspecies. Just my two cents. I've drove down into genetics pretty deep and another thing to consider is that you pick the top 50 geneticists from the top 50 colleges on the planet and none of them are going to have the same answer when it comes to subspecies. Because quite simply as almost all of them will admit, they do not understand the animal classification system like they thought they did. Which means more work and research needs to be done. But at this time, if it's the same genus and the same species there's no such thing as locality other than geographically different animals that produce different colors based on camouflage and adapting to that specific area. They aren't branching off genetically at all. Anyways I hope that helps explain my answer a little bit better :-) Thanks for your thoughts those :-)
@surfpanther
Жыл бұрын
@@ipardalis I would have to see proof of this. And I would bet my life that the only reason some of them don't interact in the wild and breed is because of man-made destruction blocking them from having interactions. And I'm not denying that you can't have slight genetic differences, that's what mutations are and recessive genes. However it doesn't change the genus and the species or the overall genetic code of the animal. Look at ball pythons, look at dogs, all dogs are the same genus and species. Genetically you can tell all of them are all the exact same species. Yet none of them are branching off into a subspecies. And the genetics are recessive mutations. You have enough of them and you lose enough information you can't backpedal and get something else from a chihuahua.... that gets in a little bit more of an in-depth conversation.
@Bioman97
Жыл бұрын
Hi Bill, so my Veiled chameleons are outdoors. I live on the Texas Gulf Coast south of Houston. The humidity has been getting into the high 80 to low 90% at night. I mist the cages for one minute each at 10:00 pm and again before dawn. Do I need to fog too? I do put on a dripper later in the morning. Thanks!
@giovannialvarado2603
Жыл бұрын
Where's the likes People?
@ChameleonAcademy
Жыл бұрын
That’s right! Thanks for looking out for me, Giovanni!! :)
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