Tim totally trounced James. James should have prepared better. Tim outsmarted James both Biblically and in the q and a. James is still good at refusing to answer uncomfortable questions. I used to be a Molinist, which isn't that different from determinism. Open theism seems more orthodox than determinism nowadays
@nelidascott6917
24 күн бұрын
Very, very frightening the way these open theists think about God’s attributes in relation to the Scriptures. I am actually speechless listening to Tim😳. Dr White has tons of patience to listen and answer
@jeremyhewitt2637
Ай бұрын
Is this a reset of the comments. Hopefully it is more gracious this time. God is intimately involved in his creation. Thank you James for a defence of the counsel of the almighty. How amazing it is that God has a people that he uses in the covenant people before Christ and after
@beaberean3286
Ай бұрын
Gods intimate involvement with creation doesn’t mean he determines all things. In fact his involvement with free will creatures within time actually displays his power more greatly.
@jeremyhewitt2637
Ай бұрын
@@beaberean3286 friend I never talked about determinism. But God brings all things to good of those who live him. The grace of God in Jesus Christ is our eternal hope. We are under the curse if this is free will, and we are in Christ Jesus for those who are covered. Doing the will of the Father.
@nelidascott6917
24 күн бұрын
Agree💯
@gyival8249
Ай бұрын
Tim has a fine way of evading questions.l and not listening....it was very frustrating.
@Zaloomination
Ай бұрын
It was frustrating for Tim to occupy such a slippery and non-committal position.
@nelidascott6917
24 күн бұрын
Based on Gods attributes as He revealed in His word, it makes no sense that He did not decree all things.. Thanks Dr White❤
@jeangreen432
18 күн бұрын
I agree. Certainly, God can and does use people and circumstances to glorify Himself. But He also allows man to have free will through the process, and if their will is evil He uses them for His good purposes. Read Jeremiah 18, God makes vessels of honor and dishonor based on the choices made to follow His will or not. Rev 2 & 3, Jesus warns 5 of the 7 churches to do His will enduring until the end and 'if' they didn't they would be written out of His Book of Life (Rev 3:5), John 23:37 Jesus desired the Jews to recognize their Messiah but they 'were not willing' and their rejection hurt Him: John 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!' I believe God knows everything in advance, but He doesn't create men to go to hell or heaven, man will stand before God to be judged for 'their' will to reject Him. If we just read His Word prayerfully and avoided commentaries and isms we'd all be closer to God. Studying the Truth reveals the fallacies of all the ism's.
@jeangreen432
18 күн бұрын
What happened to my reply? It only contained Scriptures, Jeremiah 18 where God explains that those who follow His will are used as vessels of honor, and those who do not as vessels of dishonor. He's the potter and we are the clay, it just doesn't mean what some say it does according to God's own words. Rev 2 & 3, Jesus continually warns the 5 churches doing poorly to repent and endure until the end or they risk being crossed out of His Book of Life (pay special attention to Rev 3:5). Just a couple of verses though there are many. Read the Bible without commentary, God's Word is truly clear to those who aren't looking through the lenses of a founder of a man-made religious system. There would be no divisions if we would all just put aside the founders and put Jesus Christ where He belongs, first in our lives and all others secondary.
@Declared-righteous
20 күн бұрын
Many people are so enamored with Tim scoring debate points that they fail to contemplate the problem of his wishy washy position that allows him to go on the offensive with certain assertions but then back off when James presses him on an explanation of them. Controlling the narrative at certain times doesn’t mean a person actually won the debate based on the substance of one’s position.
@scottibreiding
17 күн бұрын
Tim only scored points by White being unable to defend his view, which is the point of the debate. his points were not rhetorical. and most people probably already agreed with Tim before hearing what he had to say, and already have a POV built on substance. my opinion.
@kellygipson8354
Ай бұрын
This wasn't a debate it was a presentation of a monologue. Accompanied by audience member answering questions. "Some people say that, I'm not saying that".... really??!?!!! I don't care what other people say you're the one on the stage! Take a position or sit down. You can't do both .
@samwurtz3439
Ай бұрын
I really wanted James to ask if Tim agreed with all forms of open theism because Tim would then need to take a position.
@kellygipson8354
Ай бұрын
@@samwurtz3439 he needed to take a position either way. The Dillihunty Slither doesn't bode well with anyone other than sycophants.
@beaberean3286
Ай бұрын
Determinism/decreedalism? How? God is not the author of confusion, but of peace” (1 Corinthians 14:33) If God is not the author of confusion, how does he decree it according to you? You can’t claim God decrees all things while at the same time believing God does not author all things.
@mattverville9227
Ай бұрын
Yea it seems like a strange argument. Either God knows if everything or He knows nothing and is just reacting to people's actions. Tough argument to have it both ways and it doesn't make sense to do so
@raydawgrules
Ай бұрын
@@mattverville9227Exactly…I am no Open Theist, but the way I understand it is that from the beginning man always dealt with Jesus, and Jesus always communicated anthropomorphically, even when he walked physically on earth. This is the only explanation to the scriptures that appear he changes His mind, or does not know, etc. So in essence He was ALWAYS a mediator and advocate. I could be wrong but that is what makes sense to me.
@geekubs2778
Ай бұрын
The very last audience question revealed the futility of open theism. Wow. Idol of the brain 🧠
@johnroemeeks_apologetics
15 күн бұрын
James White got cooked!!! 🔥
@SpicyTexan64
Ай бұрын
Imagine a God who doesn't know what's going to happen in the future. You'd have to because that God doesn't exist. God is outside of time and is completely omniscient.
@IdolKiller
Ай бұрын
Watch the debate before commenting. Tim affirmed the debate proposition.
@ryleighloughty3307
24 күн бұрын
God knows everything. He already knows who will be with him in Paradise and who will not be with him in the Lake of Fire.
@ronjones2266
17 күн бұрын
Well then, whatever happens, happens. We’re all just along for the ride. No matter where we end up, it was God’s will, as long as it brings Him glory!
@johnroemeeks_apologetics
15 күн бұрын
Just because he knows what will ultimately happen, doesn't mean there isn't open paths leading to different outcomes based on our freewill, and it doesn't mean that he wanted it all to happen the way it did or that he forced it to happen the way it did. The whole point in having a world with love is to give creatures freewill, but if we do not have freewill, there is no genuine love. He made us love and hate
@ryleighloughty3307
15 күн бұрын
@@johnroemeeks_apologetics So, God is waiting for human beings to make decisions before he can know the future?
@CmRoddy
Ай бұрын
Anyone who can honestly watch this and think that Tim Barber performed well needs to get their heads checked.
@johnroemeeks_apologetics
15 күн бұрын
Let me guess, you're a Calvinist!!! That's like an Evolutionist commenting that a Creationist lost the debate. Totally subjective. Calvinism is completely absurd
@CmRoddy
15 күн бұрын
@@johnroemeeks_apologetics Cool story, bro. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
@lonelyguyofficial8335
Ай бұрын
Can we get one where James actually wins next time? I mean, he's lost the few recent debates lately. Can we get one good one? Like, you know, the good old days? Bad ending to his career if he keeps losing like this as he nears the end stage of his life.
@nelidascott6917
24 күн бұрын
That is is your own opinion, my friend. At least it is clear to me James won
@noynoying
Ай бұрын
My admiration of Dr. James White just increased. How could he put up with such kind of debate opponent? Tim Barber is a huge embarrassment, to put it mildly
@therightduck6258
Ай бұрын
I don’t comment much on debates, but it’s so sad that Tim Barber says he doesn’t think he’s so important to God, that God didn’t know him or save him before his birth. The problem is that he is that important to God, all his children are. The love of God is so much greater for him than he realizes.
@IdolKiller
Ай бұрын
Tim said he doesn't think he's a neccesary being, so important that God was eternally thinking about him... not that he wasn't important to God.
@AtomicApolo
Ай бұрын
@@IdolKiller When Jesus compared the one sheep over the 99 other sheep, He didn't think about the lost sheep?
@IdolKiller
Ай бұрын
@AtomicApolo sheep are not neccesary either. Only God is a neccesary being. The sheep Jesus referred to existed when he referenced them
@therightduck6258
Ай бұрын
@@IdolKiller That’s a fair distinction. And I hope you’re right. No matter one’s theological position, I think they should know they’re important to God.
@jenairothnie8796
Ай бұрын
Because to hold that one is a necessary being means one believes that God HAD to create you, and HAD to decide to save you specifically before you were born. There's a huge difference between believing that God cares for all His creation and forms us in the womb and loves us and believing that we are necessary creatures whom God had to create. (Let alone had to create and choose to save or else "couldn't" know the end from the beginning and implement His plan of salvation from beginning to end.)
@jeangreen432
18 күн бұрын
What happened to my reply? It only contained Scriptures, Jeremiah 18 where God explains that those who follow His will are used as vessels of honor, and those who do not as vessels of dishonor. He's the potter and we are the clay, it just doesn't mean what some say it does according to God's own words. Rev 2 & 3, Jesus continually warns the 5 churches doing poorly to repent and endure until the end or they risk being crossed out of His Book of Life (pay special attention to Rev 3:5). Just a couple of verses though there are many. Read the Bible without commentary, God's Word is truly clear to those who aren't looking through the lenses of a founder of a man-made religious system. There would be no divisions if we would all just put aside the founders and put Jesus Christ where He belongs, first in our lives and all others secondary.
@lawrencestanley8989
Ай бұрын
I am always surprised that this is even a debatable topic. As Dr. White stated at 10:18, God effects all things after the counsel of His will, quite literally making God the ultimate cause of all things in heaven and on earth. We know that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future simply because he is the ultimate cause of it.
@JayReacio
Ай бұрын
Ahh yes the ole- insert one prooftext, pretend there are no alternative explanations, don’t add any context, ignore the rest of the Bible- the Calvinist shuffle.
@lawrencestanley8989
Ай бұрын
@@JayReacio Ah yes, the old, never let the scriptures get in the way of your doctrine routine. News flash, there is no other explanation for that text. Typical satanic nonsense that no Christian ever falls for. And I'm not a Calvinist; I'm just a Bible-believing Christian. If more people did that, there wouldn't be any more open theists.
@aletheia8054
Ай бұрын
@@JayReacio here’s a few more. How many verses does it take? Let me know if you want some more. What God does is forever Eccl 3:14, 15 - I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. v15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past. Workmanship (Poiema - Tapestry / artwork) Eph 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Declaring End from beginning Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Phil 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Works all things Eph 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will I Thes 5:18 - In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Rom 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Acts 15:18 - Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 3:18 - But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. I Cor 12:6 - And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. Isaiah 42:9 - Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Acts 4:28 - For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
@SugoiEnglish1
Ай бұрын
@@JayReacio Well, is there any that contradicts that explicit declaration in Eph 1:11? Rhetorical. Case is closed.
@SugoiEnglish1
Ай бұрын
@@lawrencestanley8989 Yep. And I am a Calvinist!
@zachcampbell4726
Ай бұрын
The reason we have a moderator is not to only organize the debate, but to step in when things get out of control. This wasn’t fruitful unfortunately
@dmitrioehling
Ай бұрын
Man, Mr.White really met his match. Prepping before a debate should be taken seriously. 😅
@dmitrioehling
Ай бұрын
@Animosity-yj7um Not at all! Mr.White said it himself!
@geekubs2778
Ай бұрын
What color is the sky in your world?
@dmitrioehling
Ай бұрын
@@geekubs2778 The correct one. 😉
@dustincampbell4835
Ай бұрын
I mean what do you expect from people who embrace open theism? A clear and honest evaluation of information they are presented with? Not gonna happen.
@dmitrioehling
Ай бұрын
@@dustincampbell4835 Yes, the pride of Calvinsm and inconsistent argumentation is the real way to go. 🙄
@kdbrich
Ай бұрын
Man I was waiting for Dr. White to stand up during Barbers closing and just tell him to stop it. Dude was disconnected from what actually happened in the debate
@nelidascott6917
24 күн бұрын
It is so frustrating to listen to Barber!
@johnpearse8837
13 күн бұрын
Regardless of one's position in this debate between two brothers in Christ Tim Barber behaviour towards his fellow brother was embarrassing and an afront to brotherly love not a good witness indeed to see him laughing smirking condescending patronising and I could go on knowledge obviously doesn't equate to christian character which was exposed nullifying any debate outcome and yet again bringing the body of Christ into disrepute in relation to being and acting Christlike!
@Ruralpickers
17 күн бұрын
This was absolutely a total waste of time and in no way furthers the kingdom of God nor spread the gospel in a way where someone would be saved. I wish I had my hour and a half back that time could’ve been spent for so much good to be done, and I totally wasted an hour and a half of my life, something that had no relevance to the word. It was only an argument which the Bible teaches against arguing over man’s interpretation of scripture. so disappointing to see Christians wasting precious time arguing over who is right and who’s wrong
@user-bc4sg7cn9n
9 күн бұрын
2 Corinthians 10:5 mr Barber. You lose
@MattYester
22 күн бұрын
Tim is quite the overactor.
@GhostBearCommander
Ай бұрын
There’s a kind of Orwellian Doublethink associated with Calvinism. In the same way as the citizens of Oceana are conditioned to think that “War is Peace” in 1984, Calvinism also necessitates holding two contradictory opinions. “God decrees all things” and “God is not the author of all evil.” “All things” necessarily includes “all evil.” Thus, believing both statements is Doublethink… an untenable contradiction. That being said, Sovereignty IS NOT Determinism.
@anthonypassalacqua3330
Ай бұрын
God supersedes all contingencies but he deals with man by way of accommodation, that is he deals with man on his level, this doesn't mean that God doesn't know precise outcomes. As God deals with us in time it might appear that he doesn't know some things but this is just an appearance.. Do we really think that God is dealing with mankind on his own level of intelligence. Were talking about the God who made all the stars. knows how many, and calls them all by name . If God spoke to us on his level it would be kind of like us trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old. God has to humble himself to deal with those in heaven how much more to those on earth. The guy representing open theism wants God to be just like him. His God is not big enough.. The Bible cannot give us an exhaustive declaration of the wisdom and knowledge of God because God's wisdom and knowledge is infinite therefore, it would be impossible for any human language to communicate the infinitude of God. It is therefore folly to limit the extent of God's knowledge to the Bible.It's enough for us to know that there is no searching of his understanding Isa. 40:28. and his ways are past finding out.Rom. 11:33.
@beaberean3286
Ай бұрын
Pretty sure your God is not big enough since God dealing with free willed creatures makes him less than God. It’s your who thinks free will is a superpower….not us.
@anthonypassalacqua3330
Ай бұрын
@@beaberean3286 I don't know what your talking about I'm not giving any saving ability to free will. I think you got the wrong guy
@beaberean3286
Ай бұрын
@@anthonypassalacqua3330 I know you aren’t. You reject free will in man. But the reason you do is because you think God can’t be sovereign and omniscient if He gives man free will.
@anthonypassalacqua3330
Ай бұрын
@@beaberean3286 Mans will is free in many ways but mans will is not free to regenerate itself Jn. 1:13. Even in temporal things the will is not sovereign but rather a servant for it is subject to many secondary causes. Mental and emotional impressions often affect the will, not to mention external circumstances. The only free will in the universe is God's
@beaberean3286
Ай бұрын
@@anthonypassalacqua3330 you might be surprised but I actually 100% agree with you. Man is unable to freely choose God on his own. God enables men to choose. But the problem is this, any free choice that man is enabled to take, even if it is just between fruit loops or Chex, or sin “a” vs sin “b” -- that upsets the Calvinistic idea of sovereignty and Gods decree. In Calvinism/ theology of Gods decree, everything happens because God decreed it from eternity past, including sin. So therefore there is no such thing as a free choice even as enabled by God. Under that view, if man can ever make a single choice apart from God choice for him, God is no longer sovereign.
@Silverhailo21
Ай бұрын
It's pretty sad to be honest that Newtonian physics still influences theology to this degree. The advances made in the hard sciences have shown that even the natural world to say nothing of the spiritual world is probabilistic. I'm not sure why it is that so many attempt to limit God's power and knowledge. I think it has more to do with a terror of the unknown and a fear of actual responsibility for your actions.
@AtomicApolo
Ай бұрын
Imagine a rape victim coming to God and discovering she was "Plan C"...
@IdolKiller
Ай бұрын
Imagine her hearing God decreed every thrust for His glory and good pleasure.
@Dark_Moon_Grass
Ай бұрын
@@IdolKiller harsh but true.
@IdolKiller
Ай бұрын
@@Dark_Moon_Grass a true representation of the blasphemy of Calvinism or do you believe evil is an eternal attribute God expresses in creation?
@Dark_Moon_Grass
Ай бұрын
@@IdolKiller Warren, I’m on your side. Peace.
@IdolKiller
Ай бұрын
@@Dark_Moon_Grass I wasn't attacking you, just asking (while attacking Calvinism).
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