Esports is an advertisement for your game, but prioritizing that is putting the cart before the horse. people set out to master a game not because it is hard but because it is fun and rewarding.
@cannottrust3710
2 ай бұрын
Casuals make up 90% of the playerbase
@Aethermie
2 ай бұрын
true. I found myself enjoying games like Northgard or Against the Storm much more than any ESPORTS WOOHOO RTS-game. Coz they're just chill and fun P.S. Ye I know Against the Storm isn't even RTS technically, it's like city-builder sim but basically I find there the same fun I had playing old RTS like WC3 in a single-player as a child, so I mention it anyways cos for me the feeling isn't that different.
@MrPronGogh93
2 ай бұрын
Tell that to the halo crowd
@masonrockwood7732
2 ай бұрын
@@Teknospacepotato Yes, they are reversing cause and effect. People mastering a well made game becomes the market for people to view it, not the other way around.
@Asmodheus0Ashvalley
2 ай бұрын
As a casual RTS enjoyer all I want is to make cool bases, build a huge cool army and duke it out with AI opponents. I only care about the game working well (no pathfinding issues, responsive unit commands, stuff like that) and the game having fun, interesting units and factions to play around with. I've been wondering for a good while now why devs can't just understand the fact that what we want is some games where we don't need 9999 apm to play properly and most people just want to skirmish some half decent AI lol
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
I gotta put in my training course to enjoy my game I play in single player 90% of the time I am literally playing Total War Pharaoh right now, just to get Hittites high armor melee units and beat people up with 2handed bronze axes.
@ReAnnieMator
2 ай бұрын
I haven't played a lot of RTS, but every time i do, i just go for a big base maximum army and slowly roll AI over. Essentially building phase is much more interesting for me than winning as fast as i can and optimising my actions to the fullest.
@st8113
2 ай бұрын
There cannot be such a thing as "half decent AI" with the existing expert systems. It simply is not possible to handcraft an expert system that can beat a competent human on a level playing field in a game with any variety in strategy. This is why the game design value of RTS is in multiplayer - the design cannot be explored properly if you're only fighting AI. Now, maybe if you throw some machine learning, you can get something that can beat a human - but keeping that "fair" is always going to be tricky, as it's fundamentally not subject to the same restrictions.
@FestusOmega
2 ай бұрын
It would also help to do what Warcraft III did by adding a large amount of non-faction units, like the murlocs, furbolgs, etc. This adds flavor, world-building, and resources for the editor. Definitely worth the production time.
@jessee4246
2 ай бұрын
Barrier to entry is real and a big killer of RTS aswell
@CoqueiroLendario
2 ай бұрын
Its a false barrier even, created by the illusion of the high level play you don't need to play like those dudes to enjoy the campaign, but most people think they do.
@COIN_a
2 ай бұрын
But does it really matter if you are playing single player, coop, and silly custom modes?
@mantraki
2 ай бұрын
@@CoqueiroLendario like fighting games almost
@Pandzior75
2 ай бұрын
And campaing is there to let you skip it. You choose easy or normal difficulty with cool story and well developed characters then when you finish it you can learn and play it more.
@MrPronGogh93
2 ай бұрын
@@jessee4246 is not outside online MM. You can literally take any rts, set the difficulty on low and beat it without problems. This whole argument is a myth from redditors/influencers who just play dick contest online. It is real once you play online amd that's why games such as SC2 have a huge playerbase playing customs, mods and single player, but very few people playing 1vs1 online.
@Orendiz
2 ай бұрын
This is the same issue we had with single player games in general "single player games are dead". Those AAA company marketing teams focused only on multiplayer elements that can generate the most interaction by themselves with minimal work from the devs side, and monetize it as much as possible further justified by it being Multiplayer and self-sustaining. Meanwhile every single player aspect of the game is left in the basement to rot away even though that's what ppl care about more than their shitty Esports or cool multiplayer game modes.
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
Singleplayer gets buy-ins, but multiplayer is where the long term players gravitate towards should the single player content dry up. Unlimited co-op replayability is the temporary solution to that. The long term solution is to churn out single player content. A good solution is also, as I said, super low stakes low skill custom maps that you can screw around in.
@Orendiz
2 ай бұрын
@@ShinshinVariety Modding also extends the life of a game and is probably why games like left 4 dead 2 are still alive. Also a bit off topic, but i think the term "replayability" is a bit overused sort of. Most reffer to replayability as just more content. So that every time you play there's something new. But i think a game that has a good base gameplay loop can still be played many times over, even if it's the exact same thing every time.
@Pandzior75
2 ай бұрын
@@Orendiz This is also the base of HnS like Diablo 1,2 or PoE. Randomized loot, randomized maps, different characters with different builds but the same gameplay loop. Add to it multiplayer and voila!
@Orendiz
2 ай бұрын
@@Pandzior75 Multiplayer is only a bonus feature for a lot of those games. Becouse it adds it's own balance issues, griefing, and can be utterly useless to those who just dont play mp in general or have no one to play with. Single player games are tailored to an audience and multiplayer is a make or break feature that a lot of single player games don't even need.
@ozthebeeman
2 ай бұрын
another big problem is, that people who do like 1v1 and competitive rts will naturally prefer sc2, which they already know and mastered. unless stormgate can massively improve on the whole competitive aspect, people will just gravitate to sc2
@Xazamas
Ай бұрын
@@ozthebeeman maybe it's just me watching grubby, but WC3 is also an option
@XenoWarlock
2 ай бұрын
I think RTS devs forget that they need to build a universe and lore we care about for any of the battles to matter to us, it can't just be generic faction vs generic faction. The reason we like Terran, Night Elf, Protoss, Undead, Orc, Zerg etc is because they gave us great characters and world building behind them and why they're cool, why they have flavor and "roleplay". How important roleplay and the power fantasy is something that gets lost in the chasing of esports.
@DroidFreak36
2 ай бұрын
I think what devs need to realize is that esports become popular when the games are popular. Whether the game is geared towards esports by the devs has almost nothing to do with it. If they really want to achieve esports popularity, they should just aim for popilarity in general. If they really want to make a "next gen" RTS like they say, they should have had a big focus on making the gameplay accessible and appealing to a wide audience, but I don't really see that. They made some small attempts at that, but it's clearly not a generational leap from Starcraft 2 in that area. It barely differentiates from SC2 at all, except in negative ways. What actually would be more of a generational leap in that way would be a Planetary Annihilation style of control, to allow people to do more with less APM. PA is more of a next-gen RTS than Stormgate, easily. If they just took that style of control and added the good campaign/coop/editor elements that would be a winner. But instead we just get a more bland and generic version of SC2.
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
If you make a game visually clear to follow, with obvious signs of what is happening, it can be made in to good youtube videos and such. From there it can generate a competitive scene. That's about all developers can do though to try to force it. BEyond that they need to just make a good game.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
I think Stormgates aim was to target the competitive playerbase from SC and SC2. I don’t think they ever intended or wanted to make a game that would be popular. It’s been a while since their announcement so I might be mistaken.
@Swifvente
2 ай бұрын
I enjoyed Baldurs Gate 3, you got me. Playing Tiberium sun as a kid I sure loved the campaign more than I ever did PvP, it is cool to see that the graphs show that that's what people go for. Great video.
@NisseDood
2 ай бұрын
To be fair C&C never really had that good pvp besides maybe Generals Zero hour. It was all about the campaign with its cheesy cutscenes.
@ozthebeeman
2 ай бұрын
kain wasnt in red alert 2, he was in red alert 1, but it was retconned
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
I meant Yuri
@g4md0r32
2 ай бұрын
About co-op. It's not only a way to bring new people into the genre. It's one of if not THE best way to bring more people into it. It's so much fun beating the shit out of an AI with friends. Like most hours of multiplayer I have at Age of Empires 2, 3 is actually co-op with friends that play super casually. Also Co-op Campaigns are absolutely the most fun. If you can make them replayable as well? Even better. I would and I have played the shit out of these gamemodes personally and that is what my non rts friends look for to get into them as well.
@MrJefferson07
2 ай бұрын
Starcraft II Co-Op campaigns were very fun to play, sadly it glitched out mid run and my brother lost all of his progression.
@ozthebeeman
2 ай бұрын
excuse me im 23 and i got to play all the big RTS games
@SomethingScotty
2 ай бұрын
A flawless narrative campaign was never the developers intention. THey made Stormgate for the competitive SC community. Story in most RTS games are just to teach you the basic fundamentals of that race. The only reason SC1 had a good story was because Blizzard's narrative team back then didn't suck. The campaign has never been the main course when it came to StarCraft. So the developers didn't fail. They did what they set out to do, which was make a competent pvp RTS game. Though there are things that need to be fixed in the actual gameplay aspect nor do I think it's at the levels of E-Sportsitude they want it to be. I'm content with just having a pvp rts game what isn't starcraft.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
Agreed and I don’t even think most people were in love with the StarCraft campaign. I’ve been playing StarCraft since its’ release and I’ve played through the campaign a few times over the years. I have never felt like this was a groundbreaking campaign or even a particularly interesting one. It kind of fulfilled the minimum, but there were some memorable moments. It was a decent story. StarCraft 2 is where the campaign really took off. I remember my campaign experiences in AoE2, WarCraft, and C&C way more.
@mspy1955
2 ай бұрын
Westwood studios’ last successful game was Red Alert 2 with Yuri’s Revenge that was the top with its story. It is still played by many (1k people) on CncNet with custom shite.
@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629
2 ай бұрын
don't forget the mods. Mental Omega has a cult following of players due to the gigantic campaign with a decent story and plenty of times had more players then the vanilla game due to COOP + team games in pvp.
@mspy1955
2 ай бұрын
@@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629 True, mental omega is pretty hard to manage though, even for experienced people.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
EA definitely, notoriously killed the studio though. So much meddling. So many unrealistic standards imposed on the studio. They did it to so many smaller studios. And the profit margins on games back then were already narrow, so if something wasn’t a hit, you only had one or two chances to turn that around.
@g4md0r32
2 ай бұрын
I have no idea why companies still prioritize esports in RTS games. Like the main complain of the anniversary edition of AoE 4 which was a free update that added ottomans and malians was that they didn't have a campain with them. And yes campaigns are fun af.
@MrPronGogh93
2 ай бұрын
As someone who have thousands of hours through multiple rts since the 90', I agree with the whole video, but I say even other genre have to stop with the esport chase, or the twitch moment gimmick.
@ErravanRevalio
2 ай бұрын
I mostly just do 1v1s in AOE 2 or 4 but in AOE 4 I wish it had a good coop mode, since I had a friend who loved some of the cosmetic aspects of AOE 4 like how a civ's language develops as they age up and how all the civs looked completely different unlike AOE 2, but he wasn't experienced in competitive RTS like I was and we couldn't really enjoy the game together. I feel like for 2v2s to be enjoyable the two teammates have to be at a very similar level and it's just not realistic with your friends, but it's not a requirement in coop and I think that makes it important to grow an RTS game. I however do have a different friend who went crazy on the AOE 2 campaigns completing them all on the highest difficulty and due to the sheer number of campaigns he got a ton of experience in the late stages of the game and became great at late game macro and micro. Since I had way more 1v1 experience I was much better at early game aggression and timings, but he was better than me at late game so when we did 2v2s it created a fun dynamic, where I was the more aggressive and he was the more defensive and eco player and our skills became similar enough overall to become quite enjoyable for 2v2s. In that way I felt like enjoying the game competitively and casually were linked and benefit from each other.
@marcusliviussalinator5529
2 ай бұрын
In 35 years I have played almost every campaign of every rts game and my closest online experience was playing LAN coop with a bunch of friends at university. This is their target audience btw.
@tictacterminator
2 ай бұрын
What you played Warlords Battlecry 3 or no not really every RTS
@nopurposeposting1548
2 ай бұрын
13:57 the problem with victor and vanquish is that their mission was adapted from mods by community that you can get for free, that is why if you see the steam review for that mod it was mixed (last time i saw at least). But yea they do indeed still release new expansions
@zoltankiacz9795
2 ай бұрын
I'm 37 and i used to play Sc1 semi-competitively (not e-sports lvl but high rank online/local competitions) for like 8 years. I swapped to League in 2014 that i still play. I also enjoy RPGs like Fallout , Larian games , Witcher etc. that have intersting stories , characters and stuff but the truth is i never played RTS games for their stories. Custom maps were awesome tho in SC and WC3. I think League should have similar in it but probably they are scared if it would kill their business.
@SpookSkellington
2 ай бұрын
Part of me is kinda thankful that Command and Conquer, Red Alert and Battle for Middle-Earth are dead and forgotten. Because knowing EA, Command and Conquer 4 would seem like a magnum opus compared to what they would make nowadays.
@Pandzior75
2 ай бұрын
I agree with almost everything. One thing that I have to say is that RTS game must have PvP. Sure, it has to be optional. But it just must be there to let some people play it competetitively. First, focus on the campaing. Then make the editor to let people create they own games in it. Add some skirmish mode with AI and 1v1 then try to balance it and start polishing. It has to go through this way. You can't skip the last process. The most succesful rts games had it all.
@Rofel_Wodring
2 ай бұрын
I mean, I've never liked blizz style RTS games. WC3 was an exception and I played custom maps mostly. I legit think blizz RTS games are bad as RTS and much prefer something like the Age games
@Pandzior75
2 ай бұрын
Probably because of fast paced gameplay they have. WC3 is hero based with hard to kill units and buildlings.
@Soren59
2 ай бұрын
I wish Age of Mythology got as much love as Age of Empires did. I've replayed the Fall of the Trident and Titan campaigns more times than I can count, and there's so much potential for more mythology-based campaigns.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
Ironically, AoM didn’t do well over time because the skirmish and competitive aspect was severely lacking compared to AoE. Was back before good internet that now allows all of this DLC to be justified and made. We may get a lot more support in the upcoming remaster/remake.
@Soren59
Ай бұрын
@@mgs85 I'm a bit skeptical of Retold, if I'm being honest. If it's good, then great, but my expectations aren't much higher than it just being a reskin with a few balance tweaks. The flawed AI art being used for the god portraits also doesn't get my hopes up.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
@@Soren59 Devs typically touch the AI when they remaster these old games. I don't think there's any reason to think they wouldn't. But yeah, people also don't want a completely new game, I don't think it'll sell well, I know I don't either. Don't change too much, it should still feel like AoM, even if it's been so long that I can't exactly remember.
@Soren59
Ай бұрын
@@mgs85 I don't really care if Devs use AI, but it should at least be polished enough that there aren't glaring issues like 6 fingers when you're using it as promotional material. ChillyEmpire made a video going over all the god portraits and their issues. Plus they also denied using it despite how obvious it is. If you're going to use AI, at least be upfront and honest about it.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
@@Soren59 Oh, I misread that. I thought you said the game's AI.
@fbi_cheeznutz4097
2 ай бұрын
100% agreed. I love replaying warcraft 3 from time to time because of campaigns, custom maps, and co-ops. I wish they made more campaigns and extended more on the story but oh well. All I care is to have fun, and just do rpg shit in RTS games.
@theredwedge9446
2 ай бұрын
Planetary annihilations is the best. Hyped for industrial annihilations. My main issue is rts games have factions and that creates a lot of imbalance. But planetary annihilations. Everyone is the same.
@nicklasveva
2 ай бұрын
I just love that you can literally just build a rocket moon and fly it into whatever planet you want. Or just build 50 space teleporters to teleport your entire army to the enemy planet. Or drill a hole in the planet to later drop a nuke into the core and annihilate the planet. It's so fun.
@theriff4390
2 ай бұрын
I was playing Baldur's Gate 3 while listening to this... yeah you were right
@fudwgemar
2 ай бұрын
THANK YOU , oh my god your videos always makes my heart feel happy , nerdslayer made video about how starcraft 2 is dead and he was molding in the comments becouse of people telling him exactly what you are saying in this video about stormgate since he was promoting it in the same video he was saying starcraft 2 is dead .
@Blankanvaz
2 ай бұрын
They are failing cause I didn't even know they existed. Great video Hash!
@juanabel1425
2 ай бұрын
You have a point on the offline content being a big part of people playing rts, i still sometimes reinstall starcraft 1 and 2 just to play the campaigns again, the sc2 terran campaign is still the best campaign of all rts
@nopurposeposting1548
2 ай бұрын
huh im younger than 30 but i enjoy real time strategy game, in fact aoe2 was the first game that makes me think "wow gaming is actually great"
@1098765432wo1
2 ай бұрын
I dont think you even need a story driven campaign. It can also be a huge sandbox for you to make your own stories. See Total War or any Paradox Game
@thecherrypi9718
2 ай бұрын
Games genres I would say are defined by fantasies. RTS are cool because you can roleplay a general and use the vast amount of toys (Buildings,units,maps) for that roleplay. Its even better when there is a campaign that gives you a story to roleplay into. IDK. why its so hard to see this when we have games like Warcraft,Starcraft and Command&Conquer. I guess everyone thinks SC2 and SC1 pro play were the peak of gameplay so they think its most interesting part of game. (Ignoring fact multiplayer got popular because of internet cafes) Knowing optimal build orders, counters&answers to units, and ways to abuse pathfinding etc. for pvp is not that fantasy most players are looking for. Oh let me build 5 pikemen and 3 archers for my early threat then i can build 4 wolf riders and i think it's GG against this noob mass catapulter ( words no one says!!!!!!)
@Error-mn4el
2 ай бұрын
im in the too young to be in the glory days of rts category and the only memorable RTS i played was Dawn of War 1 Dark Crusade and Disciples 2 (and i guess COC Red Alert 3), DOW was my gateway drug into 40k and I liked building defensive lines AND the campaign with the commanders having their visuals changed as you de-facto leveled them up (also you could play as any race in the campaign and the post-stronghold text would be different for each faction which was really cool), its a great game, Disciples 2 had a fun editor (at least for young me, no clue if its objectively decent but it was fun to f around with) and the art was strikin was looking forward to stormgate but it seems it has turned into an s show which is a bit unfortunate, at least we still have games (in some cases) literally older than me to play i suppose
@johnnymonsterrrr
2 ай бұрын
bring back rome total war 1 pc customs where one dude plays and all of his friends just choose faction, place units and wait around a computer to see how it will go. THATS TOTALLY NOT MY RTS EXPERIENCE!! (except warcraft and stuff like that)
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
Who’d have thought that sometimes you just wanna see funny army men hit each other. Esports is a killer of fun
@g4md0r32
2 ай бұрын
As far as the editor goes. One of my favorite games to play back in the day was Vamprisim Fire and Troll and Elves. I wouldn't even try to play ladder in Warcraft 3 and I wasn't even a super casual player. Granted I was really bad at both of these minigames.
@michaeldes9566
2 ай бұрын
For the 1v1 modes you always needed high APM, needed to zoom between 3-4 points of the map, micro workers around, build intelligent bases and be very fast. It's why the 1v1 multiplayer mode actually wasn't all that popular in these games because people got stomped by a guy where the skill gap is gigantic. A modern RTS should just focus on fun gameplay, a great single player campaign and story, and cool unit design. Massive armies that aren't too much of a hassle to control, huge powerful units, base building, and interesting stories around characters. The small squad gameplay with rpg elements worked in war 3 because characters were driving the story. Warcraft 3 years ago was played mostly by people with an APM of 40 and single player campaign was the most popular mode, and for multiplayer not incl custom games it was the 4v4 mode. Those modes enabled esports to even exist, because if those modes were dead there would be nobody to watch the esports.
@qrukkuqurkku3490
2 ай бұрын
In Fortnite the intensive building fight phases only last for like 30 seconds to few minutes. Even that low amount of time requiring high focus is too much for a lot of people as no build mode is about 50% of battle royale playerbase. RTS on the other hand is 15-30minutes of highly intensive gameplay without breathing room. I just don't see how RTS would ever become the popular genre again, it has it's niche, but that's all it will be.
@nicklasveva
2 ай бұрын
I think that this argument will stump you: "Wood please"
@cathulionetharn5139
2 ай бұрын
I think Warcraft 3 was the best rts Blizzard made, but the massive success of Starcraft 1 and 2 esports has made both blizzard the company and blizzard developers (now making Stormgate) think Starcraft is the way to go. I much prefer the higher health units letting you take your time controlling things and not punishing you as much for not having 300+ apm Also lets not forget that Starcraft 2 actually continued to get new content unit skins, voice packs, coop mode commanders And then warcraft 3 refunded was abandoned because not enough monetization options
@Zakoxd.
2 ай бұрын
This video has been really educational and informative.
@tiberazur3
2 ай бұрын
Sc2 has custom games/arcade too. Plus co op missions and other stuff, all the achievements and stuff. So no it is not just e sports, you gotta have more stuff and variety in your rts nowadays. Cuz there are plenty other games for competitive and sweaty gameplay for a person nowadays. Counter strike, overwatch etc. Where you usually focus on 1 character not the entire map and every single character while working on industry. The gratifying feeling is just not for everyone trying to master competitive strategy game.
@sagittariusa9012
2 ай бұрын
14:14 Ok. To be fair there is a reason the reviews aren't good for this DLC. Those Missions already existed (as Mods) as far as i know and they just made some small adjustments and sell it now for real money.
@jimmyrustles358
2 ай бұрын
Played AoE3 for the first time recently after totally writing it off for years. It is totally fucking insane and way ahead of it's time.
@aersla1731
2 ай бұрын
I personally have never played any of my favorite rts games online or competitive, maybe a co op campaign of AoE 2 a couple times but that's it. However I do find it fun to watch, I love watching total war tournaments, and I used to watch AoE ones too. The barrier to entry for rts competitive is pretty hard, maybe that's what keeps new comers to compete so catering to a dying esport is a mistake atleast from my perspective. So I agree, in a way. Its complicated lol. I wish rts never die though.
@vonsomoba1503
2 ай бұрын
i was a red alert fan cuz thats the only game that was interesting on my mother's laptop until it the laptop got broken, Then league happened.
@Mister.N.e.k
2 ай бұрын
I have almost 400 hours of dota 2. I have actually played dota 2 for 0 hours. I just play custom maps and ignore the base game
@brunob4566
2 ай бұрын
i would love to see you play SC. Both Starcraft games have a fantastic singleplayer campaign
@Nersius
2 ай бұрын
Chadshinshin with the million dollar consulting advice for free 😤 So sad to hear they actually made Stormgate an esport, thought that was just for investor funding. Will need to get into AoE II and AoM though, this video got me hyped about them. And yeah, even for 30 year olds, RTS' were on the way out, basically just if an older friend or relative got you hooked on them.
@SailorIvo
2 ай бұрын
Where is the mention for BFME and Stronghold Crusader :'))) I strongly agree with the "learning new cultures and witnessing stories" They had characters literally speaking their native languages for fcks sake, it was the coolest sht! Who tf cares about e-sports? Edit: I forgot to mention the coolest soundtracks of all time we witnessed at 2000s.
@roarbertbearatheon8565
2 ай бұрын
Even in the esports hayday of bw the vast majority of the playerbase myself included, was just playing 8v8 BigGameHunters a custom map that took expansions and resource management out of the equation and let you just build. It was nice to watch boxer, but very few wanted to be him. In warcraft 3 most people played dota and tower defense or 4v4’s A side effect of the casual modes was also that it provided a stress free onboarding for people to learn the game and figure out their units and was an easy way to build up skill and familiarity for the people that want a bit more to go into 1v1 not totally blind. I think it’s maybe not smart to design your game with the expectation that your playerbase have years of experience playing sc2 prior to booting up the game Also the units in stormgate really suck and are samey you get bad marine and bad zealot as your barracks options and every game people just rushed to air and harassed you atleast in the demo it was like that and it totally turned me off
@talhosnit4653
2 ай бұрын
can you try stormgate in stream that would be fun
@VioletElite4
2 ай бұрын
Yeah, I'm not interested in esports RTS games...What they need to do is figure out their old licensing problems with EA and bring back the Battle for Middle Earth games, they were the movie licensed Peter Jackson LOTR games in the form of an RTS. Soo fking good. The Rise of the Witch King for BFME2 was such a good expansion, it's an insult that there's no way to play those games unless you have the physical discs, and even then those games don't work on modern PCs that well...
@nopurposeposting1548
2 ай бұрын
6:30 i disagree 160 APM is the lowest u need to be able to play in a strategy game, you dont need to play that high outside of a tournament or top percentile of ranked game and even then if the game you referencing was starcraft then it most likely would not apply to other slower game like age of empires, if i remembered correctly in aoe4 there was a pro player that have way lower apm than 160.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
Talking about APM like that is real ignorant anyhow. It doesn’t mean much by itself, not every moment of the game requires 200+ actions, in StarCraft that’s just spam. People like to spam actions but it doesn’t mean anything by itself. It depends on the game you’re playing but generally speaking, the faster, more effective player will win. That being said you could aim for a strategy, a build, that doesn’t require much apm and you could win with that. People talking about APM like this just haven’t experienced these games’ in that competitive depth.
@Pagus1003
2 ай бұрын
The highest I've got for apm is about high 50's in sc2. Guess I'm a filthy casual.
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
Don’t worry I guess the new game just isn’t for you.
@masonrockwood7732
2 ай бұрын
Don't listen to him. APM is criminally overrated. 2/3 of most apm is ppl manically shuffling through hotkeys while waiting for something to pop off. It's all about making the right input at the right time, not how inputs you can possibly make. I average about 80 apm and can comfortably beat ppl rated gold and higher. Not to mention easily beat any campaign on Insane and brutal++++++ co-op. Just work on your timings and game knowledge, that trumps APM every time.
@fiethsing9988
2 ай бұрын
WTF Hashinshin you got a variety channel? I was so confused to see you in the video as soon as I clicked.
@Lord-H
2 ай бұрын
Nothing but absolute facts! Great video! 👏
@Dream_Machine450
2 ай бұрын
They don't listen to players anymore, they always contradict what players want and love, the ending is poeple that love it don't play it because it's shit
@bironbudokai742
2 ай бұрын
Shavedshinshin
@BaulCuxx
2 ай бұрын
Since when did Stormgate come out? Anyway good 35min video.
@nazmmetin1862
2 ай бұрын
Be spittin fr fr
@alibitter6361
2 ай бұрын
Am I being crazy or is it being ignored that Stormgate just started Early access and already has a singleplayer? I personally don't like the writing but the campaign was decent fun given that it is cleary not finished. It is literally the start, not a finished release, there is only more coming. I am cautiously optimistic but your E-Sports focus feels overblown. They have some of the best Campaign designers from ex Blizzard working on it. Have you even played the campaign or coop yet?
@ChampDietingAndFitness
2 ай бұрын
This is actually an interesting take. The only thing I would contend with is that I believe Esports did help League flourish and is still what is keeping it afloat today. Unless you think the game would have more success if it is more casual, which is kinda what your argument is. It's interesting to think about. I'm not entirely sure how well league would do without its Esports.
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
League of legends is a completely abnormal game that got huge off being the first real free2play game without pay2win. Nobody else will ever be able to get like 100% of the internet to try their game the way they did ever again.
@danielmartinontiverosvizca7325
2 ай бұрын
StarCraft Brood War 4 Ever!!
@thakydd9713
2 ай бұрын
not that i think stormgate is going to do exceptionally well or even do well period tbh, i find it crazy that you would say the game is dead before even its initial release, also i dont think esportsification or the other stuff you said is the reason stormgate wont do well, i think 1v1 games in general will never do as well as their team based counterparts because losing in a 1v1 games feels much worse than losing in a team game, 1v1 games generally dont even keep most of their audience around for very long, example being fighting games,most people play fighting games in cycles(usually around content release) while the main audience is much much smaller than what something like sales numbers would tell you, Losing in an RTS/fighting game/1v1 is a very bitter experience and we have moved very far away from teaching people to be comfortable with that in the gaming landscape today.
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
You can make the best goddamn cranberry juice ever and I'm gonna say it'll fail because I hate cranberry juice
@thakydd9713
2 ай бұрын
not to say that stormgate doesnt have issues, but imo a big reason whypeople are definitely subconsciously checking out of any RTS game is because of the 1v1 nature and the fact that the barrier to entry is very high
@FellTheSky
2 ай бұрын
That's a lot of shit coming out from a guy who hasn't even play the game.
@delveticas
Ай бұрын
that kinda tells something already, the game looks so unattractive he didn't even want to try it
@alexarose2996
2 ай бұрын
Thisv can be applied to mmorpg too lol
@templeofdelusion
2 ай бұрын
At least mmo's tried, runescape and world of warcraft are still both online.
@AmmarFarisA
2 ай бұрын
RTS game maker nowadays never learn...
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
I agree with the premise, but the arguments being made and your reasoning you’re using aren’t good. I think you’re missing a lot of context here too. Stormgate was made specifically to target eSports, and, I don’t think they ever imagined that they would attract a huge playerbase off of that alone. They were a kickstarter campaign, since Blizzard was dead/dying and were funded by the Korean eSports community as well. That funding ended when/as they announced the early access release. Now FrostGiant has to finish the game based off of steam sales. But this doesn’t explain the poor reviews and dwindling player count. People hate the graphics, the art style, I’m one of them. The maps aren’t great and there are a variety of issues like this that relate specifically to 1v1, their main focus, that I won’t bore you with. The campaign is bad, but it’s not finished, and it’s not the focus. The co-op stuff is barebones, same deal. And as you said the editor isn’t in the game yet. It’s horribly boring to play and watch, there aren’t decisive moments, which is insane to say about a strategy game. All this is to say that I don’t know how you can say a just released early access game with years to go before finished or fully fleshed out is dead already. It’s not a release. But I would agree, and have said so myself, that first impressions are very important, especially when your company really needs to move units to finish it. It’s not a good situation to be in, and, I predict that this game will fail but not for any of the reasons you said. But because a lot of these issues I’ve mentioned, and others, were brought up during the closed beta (and earlier) that have not been addressed or ignored. Right now the game isn’t even doing well at what it’s main focus was. Looks like it’ll kill the company too. But RTS isn’t a dead genre, there are other games coming out that are now more promising than Stormgate. You saw it yourself and said it, AoE2 is not the most competitive RTS ever made but it’s still 25k+, every day. StarCraft 1 still has the most competitive eSports scene that looks like it’ll be continuing in perpetuity. StarCraft 2 is still pretty big but without official support I’m sure that game will only continue to dwindle and die. Strategy gamers are doing fine, it’s not any bleaker than the last time RTS (and PC gaming) were supposedly dead.
@mouhou9795
2 ай бұрын
I mean people will play anything competitively if they're interested in the actual mechanics. Look at like competitive pokemon or fortnite for example. Games not really meant to be played competitively but people find ways to have fun so they do. Making a game that's supposed to be played competitively instead of like making something fun first is dooming yourself to fail. (also why do you watch videos with spanish subtitles?)
@tobiasosuna5023
2 ай бұрын
Im still waiting for HoMM like games to become more popular. I love HoMM V
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
there was age of wonders 4
@Reaperl97
2 ай бұрын
there is a indie game called Hero hour that its like HoMM and it has really good reviews, and the combat its on real time instead of turn based
@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629
2 ай бұрын
l have been playing songs of conquest and l am having fun
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
These games were a little more niche than any mainline product. They just don’t appeal to the mass, casual audience, I think.
@GoodMrFe
2 ай бұрын
esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports Edit. Gotta edit in that like u said most things, ppl had em already figured out, like ur example WC3. Old league that got imported over from WC customs was pretty much as good of an experience as 5v5 moba arena game thingy can get. and it was fun. but then.. esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports esports
@TYR1139
2 ай бұрын
Brood War history is crap *drops mic
@Zakoxd.
2 ай бұрын
1:00 Eh... Not really. You looked a lot older when you had a chin-beard and stuff; now that you don't grow one anymore, you kinda look like a late-bloomer.
@LukeHunter-m8v
2 ай бұрын
Stormgate failed so much. Idk, I am a fan of RTS games, but this one is bad from every angle. I hope Gates of Pyre will do better work than this one
@darkranger116
2 ай бұрын
true
@oinkleberry
2 ай бұрын
When I heard the old SC devs went to make another game i remember thinking "idgaf, I want more story from Starcraft." Hearing it had no campaign and that they were obsessed with advertising esports made me so disinterested I actually forgot they even existed until I saw this video.
@mgs85
Ай бұрын
FrostGiant isn’t all StarCraft people, they’re not that big of a team and there’s really only a couple of notable people who worked on SC2 or WC3. Most of the team joined Blizzard afterwards. Some of the team is still with Blizzard, a lot left for other companies. Blizzard is not under Microsoft, of course.
@Daniel-xv3nw
2 ай бұрын
stormgate is just worse sc2/wc3 the lack of any inovation is kinda tragic
@Daniel-xv3nw
2 ай бұрын
also the art looks very bad
@alexanderatanasov5837
2 ай бұрын
Nice hair, Hash. It looked way too "styled" and lacking volume/flat in most of your recent videos ;
@s0lid_sno0ks
Ай бұрын
bruh
@mostlyharmless8555
2 ай бұрын
At this point PvP is a red flag for me when considering a game to play, regardless of genre. Great vid, thanks algorithm.
@qbenedetti
2 ай бұрын
❤
@TheL0rd0fSpace
2 ай бұрын
The thing about esports is, that the best ones aren't built with esports in mind, they emerge naturally from good games being built because good, fun games often have low skill floors and high skill ceilings. I'm sure there are a million examples I can't remember, but CS and Smash Melee are both long-lasting, memorable esports because they're fun to pick up and play with friends while secondarily having a mountain of stuff to master. Those games became esports because players had so much fun playing and getting better at them (for its own sake, not for any rewards!) that they kept doing it nonstop for decades! And the players who'd gotten better wanted to find players of their level, so they went from their living rooms to forums to tournaments. And high skill players clashing against each other causes them to get even *better*, pushing the skill ceiling further than what the developers ever imagined. **That's** how an esport is born. tl;dr Developers make games, but *players* make esports. More developers need to remember that.
@ShonFPS
2 ай бұрын
you fuck with age of empires 4?
@kotwczapce1742
2 ай бұрын
i heard it's starcraft clone then... why not just play starcraft instead ignoring it?
@user-gi6hd5ol6f
2 ай бұрын
I think my problem with RTS games is twofold - 1) Army building & Nuance There are just WAY too many things that annoy me with RTS, things that have an overemphasis on logic, like army formations, and unit sizing, unit speed and stuff like that, that easily lead to disorganization and create one giant mess that I will NEVER be bothered to fix I dont care if a tank is bigger than a structure... But i DO care if a tank is so freaking big it creates "move traffic". I dont care if a small tank is faster than a big tank... But i DO care if the small tanks are squishy, and I NEED the big tanks to hold up the front, and small tanks to run up the flank, and the game constantly defies this logic or there is no function to iron this out if I so wish to do so. The bigger your army is, the more maintenance you have to do to mitigate these nuances when they happen. All your units get clumped up in a ball and they look like they're literally fighting to ocupy the tiny little pincer space of "move over here" click you just made. Then they all try to correct themselves, and I just get stuck, stare at this, and proceed to physically assault my desk. like WTF is that!? WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT!? Unit selection is a chore, Upgrade management is even moreso Macro'ing is fun, dont get me wrong, but I feel to the uninitiated its a nightmare. And I think it has gotten more complex, more slower and much more lacklustre, compared to Red Alert days, when tanks could dodge tank-fire and things got all sorts of chaotic. But between Harvesters fighting for the same Ore grain, and knowing they can LITERALLY sandbag your entire economy if they get stuck in bad terrain or a tight pipeline, to which neither Harvester has the AI/logic to correct itself when it happens. There are just way too many nuances that are off-putting 2) Pacing Building a base is SO FRICKEN SLOW! And im gonna say it... army battles, are hella fast! This hot & cold paradox, is really hard to get used to. And it drives me insane It gets to a point where usually... one army battle is all you need, to determine a game, and the units are usually factored around... one, maybe two significant upgrades. But getting to that point takes forever, roughly 2/3rds of the game, and then you do all that just for a battle that barely even lasts a minute. I think people simply cannot get gripped on that. Suffice to say, if one were to suggest or express, that the "action" element of RTS is where all the fun is at... then, I would summarize by saying: the "action" part is the shortest lived part of RTS games, and that has NEVER changed. It creates this strange conondrum, where you feel you are forced to wait for the most significant part of the game, and once it finally comes, its already over! All you're left with is one question: How do you make that fun?
@emanuelbalahur6037
Ай бұрын
commenting for the algo
@dotcom3987
2 ай бұрын
Stormgate's reveal was such a massive disappointment, and not just for me. For a good ammount of time it was being sold as the idea that it would follow the legacy of WC3 and people got really excited, and then the first images came out and it turned out to be ANOTHER SC2 clone. ENOUGH space stuff, jesus, why cant these guys get a clue? Space/sci-fi stuff is soooo oversaturated, its unreal.
@kennethyates1725
2 ай бұрын
The biggest reason RTS games fail is for the simple reason there is too much going on and lots of information you need that the game does not give you. Most RTS games dont give new players ACTUAL imput on what units and combo armies are good really great against and this can be very misleading when they have to fight other things that are further misleading. Such as snipers in CAC decimate suiciders as they are a anti infantry and hold range over the other suiciders, despite both not being a core unit and instead strong anti-infantry. You might also find mechanics that are stupid and unrelatable for most people to learn like in warcraft 3, you can rush a town hall for only a few resources by surrounding and then HOLD action before beginning to build it. RTS game in the end of the day are soo complex that they are really bad design and most people playing these games played them for 15+ years using their secret game exploits. This is truely bad design and most RTS fail at this. Even when their design seems fleshed out, most games are still unrecoverable. 9 times out of 10, the game is won in the first stage of the game, EARLY GAME; and while it's true you can outplay someone or potentially outscale, mechanics such as this also bad for the game simply bad for these games anyhow and most new players will never understand how to play against it.
@mop-kun2381
2 ай бұрын
in the word of the wise Tony Cannon: "It's not about making a game where everyone get the chance to be a pro, it's about unlocking the fun at all skill levels" There's no "fun" in RTS's low skill level, all you do is either drag yourself through the campaign that doesnt actually teach you anything about playing the game, or getting your stuffs kicked in by Zerglord69 with 12000 hours of playtime. same reason why Dota2 cant compete with League of Legends, why would anyone spend 100 hours learning the game before they can even start fighting back the training bots in Dota2, while they can just boot up League and start one shotting people with Garen after a few hours ??
@WMDB4637
2 ай бұрын
I like playing RTS to build giant armies and smash them into enemy armies, E-sports is fun to watch but that alone won't get me to play or buy the game. I think the RTS to RPG is cause lots of RTS players like to role play a general commanding armies
@kylejackson4144
2 ай бұрын
Yes every RTS game fails for the obvious reason that they suck.
@KaZlos
2 ай бұрын
my theory: RTS used to be more prominent because median iq was higher. Low attention span + dopamine overstimulated society is just not compatible with rts
@ShinshinVariety
2 ай бұрын
That’s such an elitist statement. Most campaigns back then consisted of “attack move forward and you win”
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