Not for a Raspberry it isn't. Without tons of RAM and a separate array just for the transaction log, and ideally a separate fast SSD as a read cache, it's not really an option to consider. I also don't understand the bashing on RAID5 or more properly on parity. That's a proven method for decades, and modern implementations even allow mixing different sized drives and online expansion.
@Whipster-Old
3 жыл бұрын
@@graealex I think you could do ZFS competently on a pi4 8GB. I wouldn't put anything critical on it without a backup, but it would work. I won't promise it would be fast, and I haven't benchmarked it. Like you, I've used RAID5 on a lot of equipment over a lot of years, but I wouldn't think of it as a golden bullet. I've used R10, R5, R6, R60 etc. It's all about use case and benchmarking for the given workload.
@graealex
3 жыл бұрын
@@Whipster-Old "I wouldn't put anything critical on it" - then why even bother with ZFS... Also recommended RAM is proportionally to overall array size, and 8GB base plus 1GB per TB storage is recommended.
@Whipster-Old
3 жыл бұрын
@@graealex I think you're overthinking this mate. It's a raspberry pi, why would you put anything critical on it ever? For lab or training - sure.
@SchoolforHackers
3 жыл бұрын
S-class expertise here, Jeff. I love being able to point students at you in total confidence.
@ninline2000
3 жыл бұрын
I love the way you keep pushing the Pi to its limits.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
What fun is it flying a plane if you don't know how hard you can push it? Gotta fly right to the edge of the power curve if you want to have fun doing it! (Loosely based on some advice from Gene Kranz)
@ninline2000
3 жыл бұрын
@@JeffGeerling At least if you crash you'll be able to just walk away. :)
@kimberlyjacobsen4148
3 жыл бұрын
You had me at revolution.
@edabean007
3 жыл бұрын
@11:40 you could try adding some unicorn or tux stickers to increase the horsepower.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Ah yes, that would actually work! I have a couple tux stickers left, might even have one of those GitHub unicorn stickers too!
@rickharms1
3 жыл бұрын
My first computer was an Apple II, 1979. I had two, 5.25” floppy drives. I was King!!!!! There were no such thing as hard drives. The world has changed, you are so lucky now.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Cassette tape drives are where it's at!
@way2realgaming17
3 жыл бұрын
RAID was way before you were born! My instructor informed me that RAID came about during the mission to the moon. And it was needed for redundancy, not speed.
@matthewfranklin7541
3 жыл бұрын
Until recently I had a long career working in Storage and Backup technology, working with enterprises at Petabyte scale. RAID5 and RAID6 were most commonly used, RAID10 (i.e. RAID 1+0 stripe of mirrors) for performance. I've never heard of issues related to parity..
@none941
2 жыл бұрын
Back in 1988 I ran Fault-Tolerant Netware 386 using raid one in hardware, mirrored and duplexed across controllers with battery backup power. That was state of the art at that time and ran like a top!
@tejonBiker
3 жыл бұрын
This continuos testing of pci Port are top edge knowledge, keep the good Job!
@ddr874
3 жыл бұрын
Very enlightening. Twenty plus years ago (I'm retired) we were using RAID 5 with on site backup to 8mm data tapes, and off site backup to another server, every night! Good to know we were doing it properly. Only ever had one drive fail in the RAID, and the controller took care of everything (hot swappable).
@jonnypeace2810
3 жыл бұрын
I'm glad to hear what you said about Raid 5. I used a snapraid parity system (i think its basically raid 5), worked well for years, was able to replace faulty drives.. until the disaster happened. Two faulty drives at the same time, and myself the brains behind this operation only had one parity disk (and the parity disk failed alongside that other disk). I couldn't recover the data, but thankfully i did keep copies elsewhere. Since then, i scaled my server back to using a pi4 (it was new at the time and thought it was worth a try now it had gigabit networking) , and i put a little script writing knowldge into an rsync smartctl cronjob (you could obviously run the script outside cron, but this saves me remembering). Now i have full data available in the event of failure, and best of all (i hope), rsync won't write bad data to the backup drives if smartctl has bad health on any drive. I set up a mail server to keep me in the loop as well. Of course, i still have data stored elsewhere, but after the pitfalls i experienced with Raid 5, i think this is better for my needs, and the pi4 seems to be operating this well. I just use USB 3 docks for WD red drives and it makes for an easy to manage small scale home set up.
@xXGhostScytheXx
5 ай бұрын
Raid 5 & Raid 6 dont have "parity disk, all disk in the array have parity. Thats why any 1 or 2 disk can fail at a time. What your thinking about is a dedicated parity disk, which is less secure and i belive Raid 2,3,4 have tht
@pravi59
3 жыл бұрын
please make a video about ZFS and btrfs also...!
@haydenc2742
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah..he's a formatist....harumph LOL
@murraydelk9400
3 жыл бұрын
Damn, a lot of content from you now! Awesome 👏
@jaco1982za
2 жыл бұрын
Let's all repeat this mantra together... "RAID is NOT a backup. RAID is NOT a backup. RAID is NOT a backup."
@nicholasmatthews4853
3 жыл бұрын
I like how KZitem shows me it was uploaded 33 seconds ago. Hope you are doing well in these trying times Jeff! Have a good day!
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Doing well! Just a bit cold here in St. Louis...
@bmanske1
3 жыл бұрын
I would like to add that a backup copy automatically synced by rsync, Resilio Sync, etc is NOT a backup. Any mistake, will be immediately propagated to the synced "backup". I once entered some VPN commands to mount remote disks "something unknown" happened and my sync program still saw the disk but couldn't see the files, Viola! Everything gone. Real backups to the rescue. I've never seen anything like that problem since but it only takes once. I have amassed about 30TB of plex data and for the times when 3 or 4 people use it simultaneously, spinning platters are fast enough and more cost efficient than SSD. RAID is not a backup, but it is a tremendous time saver. A disk fails and you can throw a new disk in (certain variations excluded) and it rebuilds without serious outage. Big savings over rebuilding the array and copying 30TB. Really a lot of great info in this video. Thanks Jeff
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Heh... I just had to copy 8 TB last week and yeah... anything more than 1-2 TB on an older HDD (especially if you have to go over a 1 Gbps network) is no picnic.
@Soulreaverjan
3 жыл бұрын
Hi, you said on minute 14:09 that you can install freenas, but there aren't builds for arm64 (or maybe i can't find them), but what is working on the raspberry (and any arm) is OpenMediaVault
@jankkhvej
3 жыл бұрын
Hardware RAID is a definitely no-go for ZFS. Please, do the ZFS video. Pretty please!
@zelllers
3 жыл бұрын
RAID1 is not scalable. For 4 drives, it's absolutely fine. You're absolutely right that RAID 5 and 6 are more fragile and complex compared to RAID1, however RAID 6 is used VERY widely in storage industry and is probably the most common for any large storage deployments. To mitigate risks further, storage systems will often keep hot spares connected which do not normally partake in the array, and when the system detects a failure, it pulls it from the array and adds the hotspare then begins the repair operation automatically. I realize this is a raspberry pi you're dealing with, but just wanted to make the point since a lot of the information in the video is presented as general information and advice.
@moahammad1mohammad
3 жыл бұрын
This is what I subscribed for. Pushing the limits of sensibility to GO ULTRA SPEED.
@_Asparagus__
3 жыл бұрын
Great Video! You have to make sure to put "Mb" (Megabit) instead of MB (Megabyte) on the network file transfer speed bars. It really confused me until I saw the axis label.
@tstcikhthys
2 жыл бұрын
*Mbit. "Mb" is deprecated for this very reason.
@felixal
6 ай бұрын
I love this video it's very detailed. Maybe I'll set it up like this someday
@amp888
3 жыл бұрын
3:47 I have a feeling that "a constantly backed up drive" is going to trigger a thousand echoes of "RAID is not a backup". Interesting video though, I'm enjoying following along with your escapades.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Keep watching to 5:58 ;)
@covoeus
3 жыл бұрын
Well, if you use four drives in RAID1 you technically create three extra backups of your data. It's just not offsite and won't protect you from accidental overwrites or deletions.
@amp888
3 жыл бұрын
@@JeffGeerling Heh, yeah, I saw that ;) Incidentally, on the subject of RAID1 vs RAID5/6, is it still the case with md software RAID1 that in the event of silent data corruption on a drive (e.g. bit rot which isn't recorded in SMART data or reported to the OS), the state of the array will appear to be healthy and there's no way for it to be detected? In the case of silent corruption on one member drive in a two drive RAID1, a scrub would report there's a mismatch between the two drives, but there's no way to know which is correct, and unless md knows which drive is faulty (which it won't if there's silent corruption) you have inconsistent data and no way of knowing which copy is correct? It's been a while since I used md, so I don't know if it's still an issue, but it's something you might want to check up on.
@amp888
3 жыл бұрын
@@covoeus In that case you'd have three extra *copies* of your data, which is not merely a semantic difference, even if it appears to be.
@EVR1AL
3 жыл бұрын
@@amp888 yeah filesystem table may corrupt and raid won't help in any mean. You also need battery power to prevent raid corruption and shutdown safe. And that is a price for single file copy, not even archive
@philipphellmich7644
3 жыл бұрын
For this use case a ODROID-H2+ makes more sense. You have a lot more io throughput...
@mrwho30
3 жыл бұрын
If you use the 4 PCIe 2.0 lanes from the M.2 NVMe storage connector for a PCIe adapter, then yes.
@mrmotofy
3 жыл бұрын
For at least double the price too
@hatchnhatch
3 жыл бұрын
As it's December, I read the video title as SANTA 🎅 RAID NAS :D
@BenMitro
3 жыл бұрын
Brilliant Jeff! Really looking forward to the ZFS on Pi videos.
@Angeltech32
3 жыл бұрын
Hell yes Jeff, I love this kind of content.
@donporter8432
3 жыл бұрын
Jeff is the go-to resource for me these days. Rock solid, cautious and gracious. Well done, sir Jeff!
@JarrodCoombes
3 жыл бұрын
"Until next time, I'm Jeff Geerling" Who are you gong to be next time? :D Great videos, really well done and clearly explained.
@lillywho
3 жыл бұрын
18:00 You might also want to look into different IO governors. It's just a vague idea, but it might make a difference.
@rakly3473
3 жыл бұрын
I use Drivepool, Doesn't matter which drives / protocol you add or size, you can even add cloud drives and NAS drives. Which kind of files go on the mechanical drives and which ones on SSD... Add drives by simply connecting it and adding it to the pool, or replace drives. No need for reformatting or partitioning. You can put any random drive in another PC and it's full contents are readable.
@johankotze42
3 жыл бұрын
If the "I" in RAID now stands for "Independant", the industry had woken up and had dodged one of the vexing issues (sarcastically) I had with RAID. When I encountered it the first time (late 1980s), that "I" stood for "INEXPENSIVE", which they were not! :-)
@Rick-vm8bl
3 жыл бұрын
Heads up to anyone wanting to try this, the iocrest sata board is available under a ton of names, I've got a few of them knocking around and they are absolutely identical. If you go on your countries amazon store and search for 'sata pcie card' you can almost guarantee to see a handful of them under different brands on the first page. As of writing, on the UK Amazon store it's sold as a Sybia SI-PEX40064 among others. There's also a version which appears to have the same profile and chipset but is a black pcb, these are sold for a bit more. Now, we just need someone to design an awesome 3d printed case to hold the drives and pi dev board :D
@misteragony
3 жыл бұрын
I was really hoping you would find (and solve) the heating issue with this Marvel chipset. Great video!
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
That's a topic for another day... for now just don't touch it :)
@Xalor69
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for emphasizing that RAID is NOT BACKUP. Redundancy means the array keeps going when part is down, which lets you shutdown gracefully, or limp along until a replacement system is put into production. Also, since we're all backing up important data, there's very little risk in RAID 5/6 FOR operational data. I don't use RAID for backups. Just keep in mind that if a drive dies on service hours, the rest of the drives may be close behind.
@camofelix
3 жыл бұрын
Here's another push to look at ZFS on the pi ;) Would especially like a comparison of different amounts of ram on the pi
@jamesm5192
Жыл бұрын
I wonder how it'll do with the Pi 8GB... Should be OK with normal config / usage. Not sure which Pi-supporting OS would have the best ZFS support though
@buffuniballer
3 жыл бұрын
So many Sun Microsystems originated technologies mentioned here. As a long time Sun user, NFS and ZFS are old hat. Nice to see it still in the world even while Solaris is fading into the sunset, no pun intended.
@gene4390
3 жыл бұрын
I set up a Raspberry Pi 4B as a NAS last year to solve a problem with cheap external hard drives. The problem with external USB drives is when they die there is a chance it is the USB 2 SATA controller in the drive. However if you send your drive in you lose your data. If you take it apart and your drive is bad you lost your data and warranty. To solve this I got a cheap 1GB (they are 2GB now) Pi4B, a cheap (paid $19) 8 port powered USB 3.0 hub, and x4 8GB WD External hard drives (Amazon sale) with 3 year extended warranty. Connected Pi via ethernet. Used mdadm to make Raid 10. Installed Samba for windows computers in the house to have access. Installed Secure FTP so remote family members can upload family pictures and video they want to protect. This cheap setup gives us RAID for saving important files and lets remote family upload their important files. If a drive goes bad just send it in for replacement. When new drive arrives just plug it in setup and rebuild the new drive.
@RandomInsano2
3 жыл бұрын
I’m one of those ZFS zealots :D. I’ve never used mdadm but it’s pretty complicated by comparison. ZFS is one command after the install.
@jfbeam
3 жыл бұрын
ZFS calling mdadm "complicated"? That's rich.
@RandomInsano2
3 жыл бұрын
To get started? Sure! You get it mounting automatically, it does the right thing, etc. Then you can dig in. Difficulty ramp is nice, and you don’t need to dig in any more if you don’t want to. Feel free to send over some facts or stories to convince me otherwise.
@Xplouderrr
3 жыл бұрын
Here we go... KZitem subtitles trolling again: 13:53 and 19:32 😂️
@ashyouknow7420
3 жыл бұрын
😂😂😂
@craigrmeyer
4 ай бұрын
Jeff: You should run a "1-900 number" (or something) so that people can pay by the minute to ask you technical questions. I kid you not.
@Wafflez19
3 жыл бұрын
ZFS 2 is pretty nice. ;D Honestly I like the ZFS replication and snapshot features in say Truenas core (previously freenas). Anyways that's another topic as you said. Thanks for the video. Been making me want to buy a pi module for a while watching everything you can do with one (or more in cluster with say docker).
@michaelmounteney2034
2 жыл бұрын
I assume you mean ZFS RAIDZ2. It's superb and please, if anyone doesn't understand why it's superior to any block-level redundancy, read up about the 'write hole'.
@Suzuki_Hiakura
Жыл бұрын
3:35 I remember seeing in a textbook a comparison of 1GB in a 10 or 20-year period. One was bigger than the Xbox One and looked similar to that picture, and the other picture was a typical SD Card. I found it interesting and just felt like sharing.
@roccocoetzee2188
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Jeff... I just wanted to say I enjoy your videos very much. I'm new to all of this Pi stuff but feel you explain everything very well. Thanks again.
@GeeIWonderWhy
3 жыл бұрын
Awesome video! I'd love to see a video about your backup flow, how to do it and any tips you have (maybe using Raspberry Pi)
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
I'm hoping I'll get a chance to do it at some point. My backup system is very simple (though has a few flaws I know about and am okay with).
@williamlyerly3114
3 жыл бұрын
Several years ago I came into boxes of random hardware including many SATA mechanical and SSD of various sizes and manufacturers. I was also considering coin mining - in particular burst coin which requires one to provision DASD space which one would use in the mining process. One could easily build multiple mining rigs covering 100s of TB of storage. The problem was the provisioning process because every block on a device had to be pre-written. A 2TB drive could take several days to provision. What was noticed in the provisioning process was this transfer rate falloff issue that was consistently seen on SATA drives, but not on SAS drives. SAS being more expensive one had to be flush with cash to indulge. I suggest a fruitful informational pursuit to look for SAS and burst coin videos on KZitem. There was a lot of activity in this around 2017(?). BTW - love your content.
@Yamagatabr
2 жыл бұрын
Very thorughout video, thanks!
@Hansengineering
3 жыл бұрын
Always have to read "NAS" like Borat saying "nice".
@MStrickkk
3 жыл бұрын
Ohh no, my life is now rueeened.
@HomelabExtreme
3 жыл бұрын
Being a long time storage enthusiast, you really rubbed me the wrong way, saying RAID10 is safer than RAID6... The only thing RAID10 really does better than RAID6 is the performance of small writes. a RAID10 can fail after losing 2 drives, RAID6 need to lose 3 before data is lost. And just the amount of times i have experienced double-disk failures during rebuilds, makes me stay FAR away from RAID10. Next there is bit rot/silent corruption, depending on implementation, RAID6 may prevent this, RAID10 can not prevent this in any way. One thing people often forget when saying "but raid 10 can tolerate losing half of the drives" is that the drive that is under most load during a rebuild, is the very drive you can not telerate to lose and thus the drive you are most likely going to lose.
@IcyEyeG
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I was going to say mostly the same thing... That segment of the video made my head hurt... Let me add this though: He groups RAID 5 and RAID 6 together... RAID5 is absolutely not recommended for large drive arrays. It's a controversial topic, but googling "Has RAID5 stopped working?" shows what it's about. Also, regarding the LTT video he mentioned, I'll just quote a comment there: "3 RAID5's in a stripe. IN WINDOWS. What were you thinking, man." The video is from 2016 and Linus has since made a massive upgrade with proper reliable storage. Hint, he doesn't use RAID10 anywhere. Jeff, I like your videos, and I can empathize with your concerns about parity, but you got this one wrong.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
With RAID 6, during the resilver/rebuild, all drives are working harder, incurring a greater performance penalty across the array as well as increasing the likelihood of an extra drive loss. With RAID 10, up to half the drives could be lost, depending on the drive, but as you say, there is still risk during a rebuild, that may be slightly greater than the proportion of risk with RAID 6. In either case, RAID (IMHO) is basically a convenience to *sometimes* prevent the loss of an active storage volume by replacing bad drives-separate backups are still incredibly important, unless you're just using the drives for caching. ZFS (and to some extent, BtrFS) may also have ways of making this very slightly less risky through some of their features, but it's still the number one mistake for someone (I'm not saying you, but anyone) to think of RAID as providing data backup/security.
@HomelabExtreme
3 жыл бұрын
@@JeffGeerling You are right that all drives are working in a RAID6 during rebuild, contrary to just one disk in RAID10, so a RAID10 performs better during rebuild than RAID6 (normally, there are exceptions), but this doesn't change the fact that a RAID6 can always lose 2 drives safely, a RAID10 can not. Yes there are more disks to spare in a RAID10, but you aren't likely to see a URE on a disk sitting inactive in the array, so these disks are providing minimal protection. RAID is a measure for availability, not backup, true, but in between your backups, the data that lives on the RAID, is the only copy you've got, so if it is important to you, you still need to treat it like it is the only copy you have. You didn't touch on the fact that RAID10 can not do anything to prevent corruption, there are 2 sources of truth in a RAID10, there are 3 in a RAID6, so RAID6 protects the data integrity better, unless you use ZFS or T10-PI like i am.
@rednammoc
3 жыл бұрын
Guys, you should take a look at dRAID (new in OpenZFS 2.0) for an alternative to RAID5/6/1+0.
@HomelabExtreme
3 жыл бұрын
@@rednammoc no thanks, i'm not touching zfs :)
@proximacentaur1654
3 жыл бұрын
Great video. Really concise delivery and packed with good information. Subscribed!
@luma_foxo
3 жыл бұрын
Nice! I've been doing some preliminary research for designing my own housing board for the cm4 specifically for this application and this chip is definitely on my radar! Unfortunately it seems like most pcie-sata bridge ics are surprisingly hard to source for us mortals.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, along with chips like the VL805... any of the well-supported chips seem to only be available if you build zillions of devices.
@luma_foxo
3 жыл бұрын
@@JeffGeerling UGH yup, at this point I'm considering just buying some card to sacrifice and salvage a chip from just to try getting a working prototype
@bomtollow
3 жыл бұрын
Loved the r/datahoarders shoutout! Another good video. As if I needed a reason to buy more drives.
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Just a few more SSDs... for caching, you know?
@bomtollow
3 жыл бұрын
@@JeffGeerling yup, that’s my plan! Or some just use them simply to store their Linux ISOs, I hear.
@EmmEff3168
3 жыл бұрын
Good first look for using RPi hardware for a NAS. What I took away: - hardware layout is still a lab type setup for testing, not a real enclosure that secures everything properly. Looking forward to third party I/O boards with better layouts, cases and most of all non-scary thermals! - SSDs are much faster than HDDs, no kidding. However HDD storage will have a 2x GB/price advantage and larger capacities for a while. - HDDs have observable reliability curves compared to consumer SSDs. When the latter fail it is usually without warning - ouch. Use at least RAID 1 for critical data. - I run a homebuilt RAID 5 NAS and am looking to go RAID 6 due to long rebuild times. Any six port SATA-PCIe adapters found? - WD Green HDDs are out of production AFAIK, I'm moving to Seagate Ironwolf drives due to the WD SMR fiasco. Thanks for your time to test all this!
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
I have not found a 6-port PCIe adapter, though I intend to (sometime... not too soon though) test 2x 4 port adapters in a PCIe switch.
@dinnerandashow
2 жыл бұрын
One of the best and very cheap NAS build. - An old ECC server with 16GB RAM and at least 9 free SATA ports or one free PCIe slot for a SATA card. - 8 WD Green drives - TrueNAS on a SSD Bad part? The server will likely be a tower or rack mount. BIG. The fan noise will be LOUD. * optionally a 10Gbps network card and switch.I have a old mini tower with 16GB ECC RAM and 8 SATA ports + one mini PCIe port running TrueNAS with 3xGib ethernet ports. Very little fan noise and not much space.
@timramich
3 жыл бұрын
I still feel your fear of RAID 5 or 6 are pretty unfounded. Why worry if you follow that backup strategy?
@T3hBeowulf
3 жыл бұрын
I agree with Jeff's sentiment regarding RAID5 / RAID6 even with the suggested backup strategy. My concern with RAID5 / RAID6 is recovering from a failure. - RAID1 (RAID10) - Recovery is a relatively simple sequential copy of data from a mirrored drive. Mechanically, it is a less intensive operation and it has a pretty fixed recovery time relative to the transfer speed of the drives and the size. - RAID5 / RAID6 - Recovery is an intensive read/write operation that puts mechanical stress on every other drive in the array throughout the recovery process. Because the recovery process has to calculate parity, recovery time goes up exponentially as drive sizes increase. In both cases, you are putting stress on aged drives to recover from a failure. You are more likely to NEED your backup when recovering from a failure in a RAID5 / RAID6 array than if you're using a RAID1 / RAID10 array because if a second (or third) drive fails during recovery, the array is lost. In the end, it is a trade-off between maximizing space efficiency and risk tolerance.
@timramich
3 жыл бұрын
@@T3hBeowulf This isn't 2006. It doesn't take much processing power to calculate parity. It was done on SoC up until a few years ago. RAID cards were all the rage. Then systems started to actually have more than 2 cores, the task became simpler, and now RAID cards are an obsolete joke. If the drive that's being copied from fails in a RAID 1 or RAID 10, you're screwed, so you gained nothing. You're actually very limited in WHICH drives can fail, which is WHY it is such a waste of drives. I actually am pissed off that triple parity RAID doesn't exist outside of ZFS. I don't want to use ZFS. Something that complicated is meant for professional IT system admins. It would probably do more harm than good for the average user like me. My take on storage....... Just don't use consumer drives and you'll be fine. Build a brand new array, regardless of the RAID level used, when your drives' warranties run out, because they aren't designed to last much longer.
@autohmae
3 жыл бұрын
@@T3hBeowulf i fear hardware RAID more than software RAID, because if the hardware breaks and you use hardware RAID you possibly need the same or similar hardware to be able to get to the data. Software RAID (mdadm, etc.) is a bit more safe.
@orbatos
3 жыл бұрын
@@timramich @Tim Ramich Parity computation is still very much an issue, that said ur its very usable. There are a surprising number of misunderstandings packed into this short video, so many it is difficult to know what needs to be addressed the most. This is a surprise as his other content seemed better informed. To start with, for the purposes of a NAS on such a bandwidth constrained device over a network, using raid 0 is just not reasonable. Simply sticking with raid 1 makes the most sense, providing good read speeds by itself, if more I/o is needed create a kernel block cache out of one of those ssds to provide a high iops and high throughout front-end for your mechanical drives.
@timramich
3 жыл бұрын
@@orbatos How is parity computation an issue? It's been claimed multiple times, yet no one gives an example of how. Just "it's an issue."
@abzzeus
3 жыл бұрын
RAID6/RAIDZ2 is lose >ANY< drives and data is ok, whereas RAID10 is dependent on not losing both drives of the a mirrored pair. On rebuild of one failed drive, in RAID6 you are stressing the entire array, whereas you are just stressing the mirrored drive in RAID10. You can suffer a drive failure in rebuild These are subtle but important differences, that are subject to much debate. There is no perfect answer
@johngermain5146
3 жыл бұрын
Won't comment on ZFS, but thinking of drives, secters, clusters, and chunks makes me hungry
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Thinking of 'chunks' makes me a little less hungry 🤢
@joaquimley
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the great content, really like the way you explain and move along at a good speed!
@JohnMatthew1
3 жыл бұрын
Great stuff Jeff, please keep the good work!
@bblz9171
3 жыл бұрын
For the last weeks KZitem kept recommending me to you, every time you showed up I clicked and watched, but I've just noticed I wasn't even subscribed to you! Here, have my one sub you earned for your awesome content!
@shawnmccloskey4859
3 жыл бұрын
With the drive busy issue, I would look at the individual drives. I normally benchmark each drive. There have been times when I have built an array and it just doesn't perform. Once I broke the array, and tested each drive, I found 1 drive that was slower then the others, and pulled it. Then when rebuilding the array, it performed better.
@UnreasonableSteve
3 жыл бұрын
The other drives saw what you did to the lazy one and decided to behave
@randyo308
2 жыл бұрын
awesome this is exactly the question or idea I was thinking about. Thanks for sharing your work!
@jtucker4201
3 жыл бұрын
It's been a long time since I've played around with tweaking disk I/O on Linux but this series is tempting me down the rabbit hole again. I have vague memories of making changes to the I/O scheduler and adding sysctl tweaks (vm.dirty something comes to mind) that improved performance with sustained I/O. I don't even know if this is possible with RasPi, as I said it's been a long, long time.
@derekgoodwine7509
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent project with excellent reporting!
@JoSe-cs7ip
2 жыл бұрын
I really loved this investigation. So on point of what I needed to know.
@LeoBattlelionskillua
3 жыл бұрын
Enjoyed the revolution joke.
@rednammoc
3 жыл бұрын
It does the rounds every so often.
@QUADBOYification
3 жыл бұрын
I use a 7 ports (USB 3.0) to PCI-e Extension card in my desktop (old school) and have great performance with all my printers, drives, and input devices. Even a USB Wifi dongle performs incredibly. This card needs a single SATA power input connector. Brand of the card: ORICO - 5Gbps PCI-Express (PVU3-7U-V1). You could test USB 3.0 drives with it. I paid 14 euros for it.
@lostkangaroo
3 жыл бұрын
Love the videos Jeff looking forward to running into you again in the future sometime.
@mrshyam538
3 жыл бұрын
Now that's comprehensive... I rate myself a dummy yet I could grasp so much. ❤️🙏 from India
@Ben333bacc
3 жыл бұрын
Way to go Jeff! This series of Pi content Rules!!
@TomOConnor-BlobOpera
3 жыл бұрын
RAID 5 is broken above 1TB disk size. RAID 6 is broken above 4-ish TB disk size (based on personal experience and the MTBF / URE whilst rebuilding an array.
@KameraShy
3 жыл бұрын
Very informative. Hope the viewers will heed the advice about the importance of backups. Backups have saved me multiple times. Drives just crash without warning. For especially important files, I like to have two (or more) copies offsite including retaining and rotating multiple generations. Cloud for convenient daily backup and physical media that I can control. And periodically test veracity of both cloud and media backups.
@questionablecommands9423
3 жыл бұрын
Because I think it bears repeating in case you missed last time I commented, but I recommend reflashing/updating the firmware on your LSI controller. If you want to use raid, make sure you get the "IR" firmware. If you're going to do ZFS, use the "IT" firmware.
@bartabum
2 жыл бұрын
It finally hit me, you remind me of Steve Buscemi!
@thewiirocks
3 жыл бұрын
Looking at that stack of SSDs, I feel like the best "cage" would be to run small rails vertically along the screw holes with standoffs to provide separation between the rail and the drives. Given how little those SSDs weigh, that should be more than enough rigidity and support.
@dan8t669
3 жыл бұрын
0:01 most reliable >shows Kingston drives otherwise great video
@JeffGeerling
3 жыл бұрын
Haha, well, when you put four in RAID 1, you get about the reliability of other single drives! But on a more serious note... since I bought four of them for testing, I didn't want to spend my annual KZitem budget for one video, so I went with these since they're $20 a pop brand new!
@amnottabs
3 жыл бұрын
@@JeffGeerling I've been using those A400 drives for casual use on my laptop, a netbook (yes, one of those from 2009), a spare one for testing hardware and one hanging from a sata2usb adapter on the back of my computer and they've been reliable until now, unlike a Crucial one that died on me after a year of moderate use
@Pasi123
3 жыл бұрын
I have a 120GB Kingston A400 (SA400S37120G) for swap, currently it has 10593 hours of power on time, 99 power on count, 13691GB host writes, 14019GB host reads and 25781GB total NAND writes. CrystalDiskMark shows 75% for the health
@haydenc2742
3 жыл бұрын
Heck inland professional drives are fairly good too...and not too pricy Don't be hatin'
@dan8t669
3 жыл бұрын
People, there's a reason why Server/Enterprise grade drives exist. Look, it's good that your consumer drives didn't cause any problems in your consumer workloads. But I can ensure you no _"most reliable"_ labeled NAS will ship with those kinda drives. *Kingston* in particular showed that they are willing to switch to lower grade parts mid production in order to save money. Even in the server market. No question they make cheap, available parts, just not the _"most reliable"_
@camdenrush5472
3 жыл бұрын
Your videos are really amazing dude, keep up the great work!
@harshbarj
3 жыл бұрын
I'm sold! Should have bought one of these over a pi 4. Larger, but far more capable.
@davestevenson7773
3 жыл бұрын
OpenMediaVault works reasonably well on a Pi for managing arrays. Oddly it reckons that the drives attached to my pci-e sata card are connected on USB, so refuses to create arrays on them. Create manually and it'll manage them fine.
@johngermain5146
3 жыл бұрын
You should use your Mac to connect to your NAS share as an iSCSI drive. I'd like to see these results compared to SMB, and NFS. Win10 makes iSCSI easy
@rodcleaves9904
2 жыл бұрын
I like your videos so please don't take this as sour grapes. I was there at the RAID introductions. I worked at Digital Equipment Corp and from there worked with Intel, Kodak, and Texas Instruments developing the SCSI interface. This is the interface that allowed RAID to be developed. I was there for that too. I don't know when or how the language changed but at the beginning RAID stood for Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. I know language changes over time and maybe today the "I" should mean independant, but we all decided on "Inexpensive" because once the RAID was built and working they were no longer independent. And, yes the word "independent" was on the table but it was rejected at that time. You have to remember that in those days most hard drives cost in the neighborhood of $15,000 to $50,000. The smaller and cheaper SCSI drives ran around $200 per meg but they were less reliable so RAID 5 was developed to allow for failures - which aren't as common now as they were in 1980. I hope this helps with the history.
@JeffGeerling
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! I remember the first SCSI drive I replaced in a Mac (didn't do any RAID at that time), and am currently wearing a SCSI shirt as I type this comment. One of my favorite protocols, still kicking today!
@ShoaibKhanZ
3 жыл бұрын
check the io scheduler, see if its set to cfq, should be deadline in your case for SSD, for spindles leave them at cfq. I maybe wrong here, but its worth a try.
@mishkamcivor409
3 жыл бұрын
My view on failure resistant RAID arrays is that, rather than being a backup, it prevents downtime when you have a drive failure and for that reason is only really useful in situations where you can't have downtime, e.g. servers
@tdtrecordsmusic
3 жыл бұрын
Shoulda said that bit about "still testing the LSI" in the BEGINNING !! oh that was driving me mad. cool vid, thanks for trucking forward with this. half the planet is with you on wanting more open source raid hardware/software . U said "just want bigger/better storage for vids" ,, I use iSCSI when wanting performance out of network attached. It has other advantages too
@whitebeartigtig
3 жыл бұрын
Pretty cool. Maybe one day we'll have multiple PCIe slots on those things...
@xxxblackvenomxxx
3 жыл бұрын
I can only say.. this topic is one of my main jobs where I work and I have to say: you did very well! Keep it up, the world needs thinkers like you! If you find a reason to use a raided Raspberry PI NAS and it does it's job, go for it! You better start thinking unconventional and not only for youtube views haha. Great Vid, you're such a humble guy, hahaha
@JL_421
3 жыл бұрын
I'd be extremely interested to see Ceph performance on a small cluster of these.
@WarrenGarabrandt
3 жыл бұрын
That would actually be quite intriguing. hackaday.io/project/175094-raspberry-pi-ceph-cluster Here's a project where somebody has tried this, and I think I might replicate it myself. EDIT: and now I'm reading that guide, and it uses 19 total Raspberry PIs with 30 external HDDs. I simply don't have the resources to pull that off at this time.
@DigisDen
3 жыл бұрын
I'm definitely going to implement this, I had it installed and running on some Pi4s. I have 3 cm4 4gb coming tomorrow, they were all I could get hold of right now. What I did get today though and I'm thinking maybe more suitable is the RockPro64. That has a pciex4 but also USB-C and USB3 too so I'm thinking pcie for the storage, I have already tested an LSI 9211-8i and that works fine and USB3 or C ethernet for replication.
@tad2021
3 жыл бұрын
Linus made mistakes and that storage system was not suitable for their scale use-case. He tried to save money doing it that way, and that didn't work out too well.
@ElZamo92
3 жыл бұрын
I don’t think it was about saving money. He can get almost anything for free from his sponsors and buy whatever little else he would need.
@DiomedesDominguez
3 жыл бұрын
Nice work, keep doing it.
@TomOConnor-BlobOpera
3 жыл бұрын
Goodness the WD Caviar. 2340. Fond memories.
@IanBPPK
3 жыл бұрын
The only thing that I would make note of is that if you're going to be using a solid state drive for long-term use I would not recommend a Kingston A400. It is among the lowest performing DRAM-less SSDs, and price to performance and features is just about matched by the likes of the SK Hynix Gold S31 and Micron MX500 which are from the flash chip providers and have DRAM caches for burst writes. That aside, for small proof of concept uses it's not a bad choice if you don't play on using it long term.
@siberx4
3 жыл бұрын
The component that's getting hot looks like U3, which is most likely a switching regulator of some sort. It's probably converting the 12V rail on the PCI-e slot down to 5V or 3.3V for the controller, and they've clearly chosen an inadequate/undersized component with too high of an on resistance. 120C is way above a sensible long-term value for a component like that, especially on an open-air bench!
@lost4468yt
3 жыл бұрын
Software RAID is pretty much better than hardware in almost every way these days.
@ur1friend437
3 жыл бұрын
I love this channel and thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and research.
@StephenWagner
3 жыл бұрын
Awesome video! Love the tinkering you've been doing! 😁👌
@World_Theory
3 жыл бұрын
I wonder if there are any hardware solutions to using dozens of low quality Micro SD cards in RAID10, in such a way that the individual cards have some capacity to degrade without corruption, and then be swapped out when they do eventually fail, without causing a pause in the system. I think it would be neat to have a system where the data storage is much more granular, allowing a much less expensive replacement to burnt out storage units. Although, trying to keep track of which card goes where might be a headache if you don't have the discipline to always label them with a marker according to which slot they sit in.
@ritaoraodndndbe3419
2 жыл бұрын
Amazing videos.... Keep up the good information and documentation THX👌
@pieplay
3 жыл бұрын
These LM1117 circuits are there to power your 3.3v IC's on RPI, adruino and your sata card. It's a good idea to have a dedicated 3.3v regulator circuit instead to minimize power losses to heat.
@GameCyborgCh
3 жыл бұрын
5:29 well in Linus' case the problem wasn't the parity. The setup was 3 RAID6 Arrays stripped together in RAID0 and on of the raid cards just died and well 1 device from a Raid0 dead = no more data
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