ATC used to have us verify our first departure waypoint with the takeoff clearance. Most facilities have stopped the practice; this makes me wonder why.
@MrArravelo
Жыл бұрын
Some airports still does that, I dont know why is mandatory, it should be for the controller to read: "Cleare for take off via XXX departure.."
@kevin1873
Жыл бұрын
Exactly what I was thinking.
@clearance_delivery
Жыл бұрын
LAX still does it
@Ridejumpfly
Жыл бұрын
They are supposed to if departing both runways at the same time.
@User-jj9it
Жыл бұрын
Yes. They HAVE to if they have parallel departures. Controllers fault for not doing that.
@1972challenger
Жыл бұрын
Im going to try the "im done with it" line next time I argue with the wife.
@YouCanSeeATC
Жыл бұрын
🤣🤣🤣
@judgemarshall6127
Жыл бұрын
Exactly....
@blastfromthepast1
Жыл бұрын
I tried that all the time when I was married, it never worked. 🤣
@YouCanSeeATC
Жыл бұрын
😂@@blastfromthepast1
@1972challenger
Жыл бұрын
@@blastfromthepast1 you must have been doing it wrong.
@bubbaoriley7864
Жыл бұрын
This might turn out to be partially the controllers fault. FAA Order 7110.65 dictates: "When conducting simultaneous parallel runway departures utilizing RNAV SIDs, advise aircraft of the initial fix/waypoint on the RNAV route...PHRASEOLOGY-RNAV to (fix/waypoint), RUNWAY (number), CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF. " Paragraph 5-8-2(d)
@allgrainbrewer10
Жыл бұрын
Might. We need to hear the prior instructions given.
@brmam1385
10 ай бұрын
As a non-pilot still grounded in common sense, WHY have 2 planes on parallel runways take off at SAME TIME?!? A minute or three difference between the two would prevent this problem!
@rinse3x
9 ай бұрын
@@brmam1385because it’s cool
@bubbaoriley7864
9 ай бұрын
@@brmam1385 The simple answer is volume of operations. One takeoff at a time with a 2 minute gap equals only 30 departures per hour. Some busy airports might be doing 120 departures per hour.
@jamesjr2219901
Жыл бұрын
If pilot messes up it’s “I have a number for you”. If ATC messes up it’s “I’m done with it” 🤷♂️
@brianlee5702
Жыл бұрын
I thought exactly the same thing.
@naardri
Жыл бұрын
What else could the ATC do? The controller was distinct. Life goes on.
@repatch43
Жыл бұрын
To be fair that was the departure controller, they never gave clearance for that waypoint, they just had to clean up the mess
@johncoopes1056
Жыл бұрын
If they just staggered the takeoff departures just a little it would solve all this. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see when they cleared both aircraft for takeoff at exactly the same time there could be an issue.
@dadbackwards4448
Жыл бұрын
There is NO way you know who was at fault. You need a number to call.
@allgrainbrewer10
Жыл бұрын
Hard to say who was in the wrong without hearing the prior instructions.
@nolanbennett2734
Жыл бұрын
the ONE time PHX tries a parallel takeoff
@Skier10
Жыл бұрын
Lol that was good
@TheoneandonlyEETFUK
Жыл бұрын
LMAOO true because I've never seen it happen
@Jmurse89
Жыл бұрын
ATIS only said simultaneous appch in use... No advisory regarding simultaneous departure🤔🤔.... 😅😅
@OZARKMOON1960
Жыл бұрын
For emergency dispatching 'I'm done with that' not only meant we were busy, but that someone was going to pull the tapes and the hammer was going to come down on someone (if it was a really big screw up, which didn't happen often).
@justaguy427
Жыл бұрын
That controller is affectionally known in KPHX as, "Mr. Happy."
@NicolaW72
Жыл бұрын
This was indeed another very close call. Thank you very much for picking it up!👍 Hopefully the Good Luck is not running out.
@loveslakers126
Жыл бұрын
Being a former PHX resident as soon as I saw the graphic of the American and SWA I knew this was Sky Harbor going west.
@joshreed638
Жыл бұрын
On parallel departures, isn’t atc supposed to say Rnav (insert fix ) or direct (insert nav aid)?
@kevinrusch3627
Жыл бұрын
I'm an amateur, but I think the heat of the situation justifies "you go that way and the other guy go the other way" so you can solve the immediate conflict, then clear it up as soon as things were stable.
@jbreezy101
Жыл бұрын
Both incorrect… or at the very least atc tells both flights if the simultaneous departures even though atis probably said that
@beater8687
Жыл бұрын
The rules are more complicated than that, and some of those rules rely on information not presented here, but most likely yes that should have been stated.
@mijo3642
Жыл бұрын
correct "RNAV to XXXX, clear take off RWY XX"
@beater8687
Жыл бұрын
@@mijo3642 That is not always said on parallel departures, and if you're gonna quote phraseology get it right "RNAV to [FIX], Rwy [RWY] cleared for takeoff".
@JamesMercer-j9e
Жыл бұрын
Saw this on the news, scary! What's even scarier is verifying my family and I were on that Southwest flight.
@msjdb723
11 ай бұрын
😮
@rydawg7629
Жыл бұрын
Pilots get a number to call. ATC when they almost kill 350 people gets to say, "I'm done with it."
@BlackOpSource
Жыл бұрын
He didn't. Departure saved 350 people from a clearance error by either AAL or ground or clearance. He saved hundreds of lives and you idiots are in here mad at him for it.
@m4nu507
Жыл бұрын
Im guessing phoenix isn’t supposed to issue the first waypoint fix of rnav departures on takeoff clearance? I thought this was standard across the US and not just some airports.
@Flies2FLL
Жыл бұрын
It is in every place I fly out of....
@Ridejumpfly
Жыл бұрын
They are supposed to if departing both runways. They don’t normally have simultaneous departures so it’s not normally needed.
@User-jj9it
Жыл бұрын
They HAVE to do this for parallel departures. Tower controllers fault for not doing it
@TomCook1993
Жыл бұрын
I wonder who screwed up. Clearance delivery or AAL1388?
@arpeltier
Жыл бұрын
I don't understand why everyone assumes the departure controller messed up and is somehow deflecting his guilt by being angry. This is in no way his error. This was likely pilot error flying the wrong departure instead of the one they were cleared to fly. Has nothing to do with the departure controller. He's pissed because they almost took out the SW jet. When you fly, controllers understandably get pissed when you make mistakes because their job is stressful as hell trying to keep everyone alive, so to me his reaction is totally understandable.
@rutgerw.
Жыл бұрын
He should have given them a heading right away if it didn’t look right instead of trying to figure out what went wrong.
@mijo3642
Жыл бұрын
he will have to do paperwork thanks to the AA crew NOT following their clearance, same as the taxying in JFK, and it could have been an accident on his watch
@User-jj9it
Жыл бұрын
@@mijo3642 How do you know they were not?? They could have been cleared on the BROAKE1 and not the forpe. That's why controllers are supposed to verify pilot's first fix when conducting paralel departures. RNAV to XXXXX runway 25R cleared for takeoff. Wonder who's fault it was
@mijo3642
Жыл бұрын
@@User-jj9it I just said all that ... learn to read eh?
@User-jj9it
Жыл бұрын
@@mijo3642 No, you said that it was the Americans fault for not following directions lmao
@danmartens8855
Жыл бұрын
These simultaneous take offs on parallel runways are asking for trouble. Can't they even delay one of them for 30 secs? That would eliminate conflict issues on takeoff. I guess the string of pearls beats caution every time.
@muzzcovw7674
Жыл бұрын
The controllers attitude is defined in Websters as someone who possibly Effed up and tries using anger to cover it up...
@chrisstromberg6527
Жыл бұрын
Could have been the clearance controllers fault not issuing a new clearance, could have been the tower controller who didn’t issue the new clearance. The departure controller obviously thought this guy was flying a different clearance because he asked him several times to verify he was on the Force departure. For all we know the American pilots could be lying, you don’t have all the facts. The controller is expecting one thing and sees something else and watches what could be a catastrophic loss of life unfolding in front of his eyes.
@muzzcovw7674
Жыл бұрын
@@chrisstromberg6527 this is true. However he's supposed to be a professional. Professionals use the proper tone no matter what the situation. An urgent situation is the worst time to let your emotions get the best of you
@thomasdalton1508
Жыл бұрын
His tone certainly wasn't great, but I doubt very much that this was his fault. He wouldn't be the one giving the clearances.
@yankeeairpirate1799
Жыл бұрын
His tone was fine and he handled it right to correct “somebodies” screw up...Im a retired controller, when your voice inflection changes ...that gets the pilots attention, yes my emotion sometimes changed my inflection.
@thomasdalton1508
Жыл бұрын
@@yankeeairpirate1799 It's his tone at the end that we're talking about. After the situation was resolved.
@Peabody-xv2tg
7 ай бұрын
The tower should Never give that answer. The reason to do paperwork is to figure out what almost killed hundreds of people so it doesn't happen again. If I was the pilot I would report this myself if the tower was only interested in getting angry at the pilot and cover him own but, he should have know the departure route. But regardless the problem needs to be investigated.
@rickieg9870
Жыл бұрын
“I’m done with it” yet the controller was shitty towards the American pilots. It’s always small time Phoenix with the issues.
@TeeDee87
10 ай бұрын
TCAS not working ?
@mikesingleton2997
9 ай бұрын
WAY too close no matter who is at fault. It proves that automation has eliminated the use of the wind screen! Crews have forgotten day one in a C172...see and avoid!!!
@nw6gmp
Жыл бұрын
AAL1388 filed for FORPE1; if AAL1388 filed for BROAK1, would they have been given 25R instead of 26?
@vociferon-heraldofthewinte7763
Жыл бұрын
ATC told AA to make the left turn.
@kaitak98
Жыл бұрын
No RNAV fix off the runway? Might have captured the error.
@trevorwofford3242
Жыл бұрын
“I’m done with it” sounds like someone who is guilty
@thomasdalton1508
Жыл бұрын
Departure wouldn't have given them the clearance, so I don't see how it could be his fault.
@MiggsG
Жыл бұрын
You have no idea what you're talking about
@trevorwofford3242
Жыл бұрын
It was a joke. Based on his attitude.
@Dfknascar24
Жыл бұрын
Sounds to me more like he has the same question(s) and he's ending the conversation before saying something he shouldn't.
@kevinrusch3627
Жыл бұрын
@@Dfknascar24 It could also mean (I'm an amateur so I could be wrong) "well, it's in the past. The situation is stable, and It'll be someone else's job later to figure out what went wrong, but for the time being, we have to move focus to the next flights in the queue."
@wincav
Жыл бұрын
Why can’t they stagger parallel runway simultaneous take offs by just a few seconds and reduce the chances of this happening??
@judgemarshall6127
Жыл бұрын
When the local controller simultaneously shoot two pieces of metal down parallel runways at the same time.... it's paramount and absolutely essential that they know exactly where these two occupied warm bloodied body missiles are headed to end up in a finite period of time. Just saying..... 👨🏽✈️✈🌍👺🥇
@jj4829
Жыл бұрын
🤓
@thomasdalton1508
Жыл бұрын
I'm not sure why they didn't tell both pilots about the simultaneous departures. The American pilots would have had a chance to realise that turning left couldn't be the right departure if they had known there was another plane taking off on their left.
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
They are two different frequencies for the tower, north and south. The voices are different.
@pauledwards1157
Жыл бұрын
That controller was UNHAPPY!
@justaguy427
Жыл бұрын
His nickname is Mr. Happy.
@michaela6147
Жыл бұрын
Cocky air traffic controller and more than likely it was his fault.
@TheRalf9999
Жыл бұрын
Controllers deserve a 45% pay increase not the people that screw on car doors😂
@craigbutler9163
Жыл бұрын
I'm done with it? Ummm, no you're not.
@lawwdogg1digr
Жыл бұрын
I believe it’s called a near miss.
@joelt4416
Жыл бұрын
I wish captains had the authority to tell ATC: "stby to copy a number I will give you! "
@bjs030
Жыл бұрын
I love the wasted time bickering about what departure AA should’ve been on as opposed to just giving them a fucking heading.
@christodec
Жыл бұрын
where's the POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION, ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number - standard call i was waiting at the end? controller sounds pissed off at the end!
@JohnSmith-zi9or
Жыл бұрын
AIM 5-2-8-b-2. "At some airports when a departure will fly an RNAV SID that begins at the runway, ATC may advise aircraft of the initial fix/waypoint on the RNAV route. They should do this ALL the time! This can be so easily avoided!
@t288msd
Жыл бұрын
Why does tower handoff before the start of the turn? Standard practice in many non US operating procedures.
@MyGoogleYoutube
Жыл бұрын
I don't suppose anyone actually still looks outside the cockpit to make sure the turn is clear before turning? I always did like the airports that want you to confirm the first RNAV fix on your departure in your takeoff clearance. That would have possibly fixed this before it happened.
@arizonawut
Жыл бұрын
Airline pilots should be required to have 20 hours a year as PIC of a single engine with no glass cockpit. My son is an airline pilot who flys an Aeronca with no electrical system several times a month. IT MAKES HIM A SAFER AND BETTER PILOT. These guys who grew up on glass are going to kill a lot of people.
@tigdogsbody
Жыл бұрын
Only in America, you say.
@Courtney_268
Жыл бұрын
Forpe and Broak can be thought to sound similar.
@buckhorncortez
Жыл бұрын
Sure, just like "turd" and "Jello"...
@philm3507
Жыл бұрын
Hey, could you tower boys stop it? Thanks boo
@essel23fly
Жыл бұрын
Why isn't ATC required to confirm RNAV departures?
@seancushing1113
Жыл бұрын
Wtf is going on at sky harbor
@TonyP9279
Жыл бұрын
This is not a good year for aviation!
@highwayempire1
Жыл бұрын
Two airplanes taking off at the same time, heading the same direction... why is this allowed? Seems like the most basic of things to fix
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
Departing at the same time is quite normal all over the world.
@mapolinski
Жыл бұрын
Time to disallow parallel takeoffs in general.
@kd4pba
Жыл бұрын
Stressful, unless you were a passenger with a shade down.
@MyGoogleYoutube
Жыл бұрын
It would appear the captain of this flight also had his shades down when they started that left turn.
@yooein
Жыл бұрын
you can't have shades down during take-off and landing.
@MyGoogleYoutube
Жыл бұрын
@@yooein Shades. No shades. Didn't matter - nobody was looking outside of the window before the turn was initiated. Regardless, the NTSB will likely do a study to see if it was possible to see SWA or not.
@skepticalobserver7484
Жыл бұрын
That plane porn thumbnail drew me in
@cristmh
Жыл бұрын
Pretty stupid to allow two planes to take off simultaneously.
@jhmcd2
Жыл бұрын
Probably a few errors here. When Tower gives you permission to turn, you can turn at 700' when VFR, but at the very least turn at 1000'. Southwest took their time. Then American started its turn and stayed in its turn even when it turned out tower had the wrong departure for them. They also lost situational awareness. Unless both runways were on separate frequencies, which is only at a few airports, they should have been looking out for the Southwest from the start even if on a departure. Of course, there was the fact that tower and departure had the wrong SID and when American didn't respond or stated they had another they should have notified them of Southwest and immediately told them to stop the turn and switch them to a straight out departure. But, it is always an error chain that leads to an accident, never one thing. Fortunately, they realized what could have happened and kept them from crashing.
@CharlesCornettFL
Жыл бұрын
Umm your highest priority is keeping them from crashing, instead of getting them to say they have each other in sight. When you call traffic, you have to understand that it takes at least a few moments to adjust their focus to the direction you pointed them, recognize the traffic, and respond. You're hyper requests for "do you have them in sight" were definitely counterproductive. There's nothing here that gives us an idea as to why they had the wrong departure, but that really didn't matter once you spotted it (or the snitch did?).
@Italy-fs6wg
Жыл бұрын
UNACCEPTABLE
@quattrohead
Жыл бұрын
Nasty one, controller needed a bathroom break after that call.
@warrenholmes3311
Жыл бұрын
Controller needs to be FIRED -- after that one.
@amaurea3000
Жыл бұрын
@@warrenholmes3311 No, this isn't the controller's fault. The AAL clearly had missed a revision to their clearance somewhere along the way.
@marcospark2803
Жыл бұрын
Always all was under control.
@RussianSevereWeatherVideos
Жыл бұрын
I really hope that ATC controller isn't working there anymore, waht a mess!
@NoTreadingOnMe
Жыл бұрын
He's "done with it" because he effed it up. If the tables were turned there'd be a number to call.🤷♂
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
That controller wasn’t the one to mess anything up. He fixed it actually.
@BlackOpSource
Жыл бұрын
Curious to see how the departure controller "effed up" anything in your view. He didn't issue the FORPE or the BROAK departure, clearance delivery does that. Apparently some kind of amendment must have been issued by clearance or ground, and that's where the error occurred.
@jemand8462
Жыл бұрын
What I'm asking myself is how can they have such a bad radar contact with both planes at such a small distance?! Departure doesn'T know if SW did the left turn and they even have to ask American to IDENT, wtf?!
@SgfGustafsson
Жыл бұрын
They are trying to positively identify each one. They can see them but they need to be sure of who is who. I'm not a controller do I don't know the legal requirements, but ATC has a few options to positively identify aircraft ident and turns being some of those options.
@jemand8462
Жыл бұрын
I'm also neither an ATC nor a pilot, just a simmer, but as far as I know, IDENT is only used when you're coming into a new airspace and request flight following so the ATC hasn't even given you a squawk code and maybe the aircraft isn't shown yet. Both can't be the case here. Really weird.@@SgfGustafsson
@SgfGustafsson
Жыл бұрын
@jemand8462 I am a pilot and have taken off many times from smaller controlled airports under IFR with sqwak code and been asked to ident when contacting approach. There is a law for controllers that says they have to use a certain number of methods to positively identify and aircraft with a list of approved methods. I do not know this regulation since I'm not a controller but I do know of it. I remember that they can ask for ident, a turn, confirm altitude/heading etc. And they need like two or three of those. In this case the two getting really close together might have prompted the controller to be really sure he didn't mix them up after they got out of the conflict
@SgfGustafsson
Жыл бұрын
@jemand8462 I think this is what I had read all those years ago www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap5_section_3.html "QUESTIONABLE IDENTIFICATION Use more than one method of identification when proximity of targets, duplication of observed action, or any other circumstances cause doubt as to target identification. If identification is questionable for any reason, take immediate action to re-identify the aircraft or terminate radar service. Identify the aircraft as follows: As described in paragraph 5-3-2, Primary Radar Identification Methods, or paragraph 5-3-3, Beacon/ADS-B Identification Methods. En route. Ensure that all primary targets are displayed when radar identification is lost or is questionable."
@billybuttons4298
Жыл бұрын
@@jemand8462 Well to the actual pilots and controllers here, your statement of "I"m also neither an ATC nor a pilot" is blatantly obvious. That's why the comment section of these channels is so cringeworthy, yet entertaining. All the morons who have no clue what they're talking about adding their input as if they did.
@jimwhitsett4736
Жыл бұрын
Controllers LOST control. Is it safer without them?
@PortugalHolidayVillas
Жыл бұрын
#vaxxident !!
@weidnerd
Жыл бұрын
This video starts too late. Should include the clearance delivery!
@YouCanSeeATC
Жыл бұрын
I did find the clearance. That frequency is unavailable.
@johncc16
Жыл бұрын
Maybe it should be a rule that, only two parallel take offs are allowed, if both aircraft are going in opposite directions after take off. These close calls are getting to happen every week or two at the moment.
@jacobhinger5039
Жыл бұрын
Well AA1388 was supposed to turn northbound (according to ATC), while SWA2286 was supposed to turn southbound.
@jbw9999
Жыл бұрын
It would be easier to remember and less likely for error if they used better, real life names for SIDs and STARs. No one knows what a BROAK or FORPE is.
@RLTtizME
Жыл бұрын
I do.
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
We all know. It’s printed on the chart.
@jbw9999
Жыл бұрын
@@saxmanb777 Huh?
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
@@jbw9999 the pilots and ATC know the names of the SIDS and STARS, and that’s all that matters.
@jbw9999
Жыл бұрын
@@saxmanb777 You don't get it.
@AlFrosty
Жыл бұрын
Only in America do you get controllers that talk angry and fast when they know they're in the wrong. Speed talking your commands will only create a secondary situation....calm down 😔
@ZeroSpawn
Жыл бұрын
I agree. Keep the heart rate in check, get the information out normally. One person starts to shout as fast as they can, the other party gets nervous and start checking everything they can distracting themselves. Then attitudes develop... It's just a mess. This is why we have people killing each other over road rage on the streets. America is de evolving.
@beater8687
Жыл бұрын
They're not in the wrong. Even if ATC screwed up which is a big "if" because AAL1388's routing included the FORPE1, the one who screwed up was either clearance delivery or Local, not departure. The departure controller has to work with what they are handed by the tower which in this case was shit. AAL1388, 7 Aug 2023: FORPE1 MAXXO KA33W KA36Y KK39A KK42E SGF KK48K KI51M GIIBS HIDON G42 PSYKO Q71 PSB J49 MAGIO J70 LVZ LENDY8
@ZeroSpawn
Жыл бұрын
@@beater8687 no one said they were wrong.
@beater8687
Жыл бұрын
@@ZeroSpawn OP: "Only in America do you get controller that talk angry and fast when they know they're in the wrong". That's who I was responding to.
@AlFrosty
Жыл бұрын
@@beater8687 you might be right and it's not their error, but they are the safety and security of the airways. The are trained to high standards which incorporates professionalism, stress management and, communication. It's hard to see how this controller demonstrated all of those attributes.
@rutgerw.
Жыл бұрын
Quite dumb to just assume things when planes are departing close to each other. Shouldn’t tower have given them a heading or at least checked with them and departure should also have given them a heading right away instead of messing around...
@zacharywilliams9937
Жыл бұрын
SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures) are designed for this exact reason. They are a pre-defined flight path with heading and altitudes, and are typically programmed into the avionics system for autopilot to follow. This ensures the controller doesn't have to provide details for every departing aircraft moment by moment. It's not clear from this video, but it sounds like American was cleared for one specific SID route, but controllers thought they were cleared for another. So it was a miscommunication somewhere in the chain, either from clearance delivery giving one clearance but putting in a different one by mistake, or it could have been a last minute runway change from 25L to 25R, and they didn't get the updated departure SID. It'll be investigated, and maybe we'll find out in the future from one of the other youtubers like Blancolirio.
@User-jj9it
Жыл бұрын
What the tower controller should have done was verified both the southwest and american's first fix on the SID by saying "RNAV TO XXXXX. RWY XX cleared for takeoff". The tower controller didn't do this. But they have to because of conducting parallel departures.
@texas737pilot
Жыл бұрын
That departure controller is an a-hole. I would file a complaint and make them pull the tapes. He needs to go to charm school.
@RLTtizME
Жыл бұрын
You could join him.
@sundancer3700
Жыл бұрын
Sounds like a broken system with messed up controllers that dont care, Im done with it he says, WOW
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
He just saved them from collision. How is that not caring?
@BlackOpSource
Жыл бұрын
@@saxmanb777Because YT commenters are dumb as rocks.
@subsoar5734
Жыл бұрын
this is why local controllers still need to be verifying the first RNAV points or assigned headings on departure when doing takeoff clearances. this is EXACTLY why that process was created.
@paddle562
Жыл бұрын
For sure, American 1388's takeoff clearance should have read RNAV to $$$ cleared for takeoff rwy 26 and that would have caught it.
@buttersPbutters
Жыл бұрын
Just after takeoff or go-around on parallel runways is the scariest time to have a traffic conflict, because TCAS can't tell a plane to turn, it can't tell the lower plane to level off too close to the ground, and the higher plane can't climb any faster than they already are just after takeoff or go-around.
@lagentdunet
Жыл бұрын
Bien vu
@NicolaW72
Жыл бұрын
Indeed, exactly.
@JohnSmith-zi9or
Жыл бұрын
From the simulation they were above 1100' AGL so TCAS definitely should have been giving an RA to both airplanes.
@Fireandbubbles
Жыл бұрын
@@lagentdunetnot a lot of room to move or directions to go, and the collision reporting system doesn’t work on the runway for a lot of reasons, one of which is the planes are expected to be close on the runway.
@SidewaysEightSix
Жыл бұрын
Also keep note that South Mountain which has numerous tall communication towers is directly south west of Sky Harbor. Both planes essentially looped around the mountain. So that’s sketchy to have to make a sudden left that early into the air for Southwest taking off from the southern side.
@SierraBravo7970
Жыл бұрын
Airports such as ATL and others Controllers will say ( N1234) confirm your first departure waypoint. N1234: first waypoint “Fixxx” Tower: N1234 RNAV “Fixxx” cleared for takeoff Rwy…
@imaPangolin
Жыл бұрын
We need to hear what went on before. If AA was initially issued 25R the BROAK was correct. If the Rwy changed or AA requested rge change the FORPE should have been issued.
@saxmanb777
Жыл бұрын
PHX likes to cross their departures to the other side and I could see this happening. 25R is the preferred departure runway, but some heavy departures might ask for 26, which may have been the case for AA1388 going all the way to JFK. We don’t know what AA was filed for vs what was given in their digital clearance. I don’t trust flight aware to be correct either. So it could be either the AA pilots not having the correct SID, or the tower controller not verifying. Note that there are two different tower frequencies we are hearing. PHX has a north and south tower. Tower controllers should always read the first RNAV fix in their takeoff clearance as well. The departure controller had nothing to do with the mistake. He was rightfully so stressed out. His don’t with it comment was likely just to calm his nerves.
@JKH079
Жыл бұрын
^this. PHX normally pushes departures to the south side in the evening on 25R and arrivals to 26 on the N side. The American wasn't a heavy either. Swiss cheese model from clearance to tower to departure.
@brmam1385
10 ай бұрын
You’re saying Phx towers have 2 seperate frequencies monitoring/talking to parelel departing aircraft AT THE SAME TIME?!? There goes any plan of mine to fly out of Phx in the future, because “it’s cheaper.” It’s also demonstrably deadlier!
@saxmanb777
10 ай бұрын
@@brmam1385dozens of airports operate on multiple frequencies for tower for different parallel runways. This is completely normal as it would be too busy for one single frequency.
@rngod2121
10 ай бұрын
I used to tell people that when I lived in Flower Mound, Texas, (Early 1990s), my house was directly beneath DFW Runways 35 and 36. Now that Google shows it all, you can literally lay a ruler on a map, and my house was dead center, but 13 miles North. I was in my backyard pool one day, making leisurely backstrokes when I suddenly heard the sounds of 727 engines in full distress (I worked in Airfrieght for years, and I know very well the sounds of 727, DC-10, MD-11, and 747 engines). I opened my eyes, and there was a plane on the 35 takeoff that was turning West, and a 2nd jet that was on the 36, clearly trying to go East. They were so perfectly timed (in a VERY bad way), that when I opened m eyes, the two aircraft made a perfect X, directly above me. If they had hit, I would never have made it out of my pool in time, to escape the crashing parts.
@AirspotterUK
Жыл бұрын
Would be intreasting to go back and follow that AAL flight from delievery to take off and see where the error occured.
@YouCanSeeATC
Жыл бұрын
That frequency is unavailable. I tried to find the clearance.
@justaguy427
Жыл бұрын
@@YouCanSeeATC Unavailable to who?
@YouCanSeeATC
Жыл бұрын
@@justaguy427 The frequency is unavailabel on LiveATC
@billybuttons4298
Жыл бұрын
@@YouCanSeeATC Clearances aren't picked up over voice anyway. Done digitally at major airports.
@somestuffithoughtyoumightl6985
Жыл бұрын
This is why we should verify first fix and/or dep procedure when take off clearance is issued.
@HappyGoLucky20
Жыл бұрын
I’m guessing that’s why lax tower issues/(confirms) the first fix on takeoff clearance
@thomasdalton1508
Жыл бұрын
Or even just "runway heading after departure" and let the departure controller give them their left turn once they can see they are clear of traffic. Just trusting that both planes will do what they are supposed to do seems unnecessarily risky.
@Flies2FLL
Жыл бұрын
"Fedex XXXX, RNAV to Cheto, cleared for takeoff runway 18R" They do exactly what you've said each time. At least in most places....
@User-jj9it
Жыл бұрын
Yes, They actually HAVE to do this if they are conducting parallel departures . Straight from the 7110.65
@somestuffithoughtyoumightl6985
Жыл бұрын
If you operate primarily from airports with this requirement, it may seem commonplace, but last year out of some 250 flights, I received this confirmation only twice.
@avgeek-and-fashion
Жыл бұрын
Wow, so many weird commenters here.... 1) There are TWO tower controllers. You can clearly hear two different voices. 2) It seems those two controllers do not coordinate departures, as to avoid simultaneous takeoffs. This is bad. 3) The American went in an unexpected direction after takeoff. This is bad. 4) Tower handling American should check every filed plan for American so that everyone knows what was Tower and what was American (dispatch) responsibility. 5) Departure had nothing to do with any of this. Stop nagging on Departure. Listen to the tapes - Tower hands off planes to Departure AFTER takeoff so you guys being mean to Departure are misinformed. Educate yourself.
@NicolaW72
Жыл бұрын
Indeed, exactly.
@theinquisitor3930
Жыл бұрын
I am a railroad dispatcher and when we're curt with someone and the conversation is over we have "Copy, Control out" 😂
@seththomas9105
Жыл бұрын
Never heard that. Are you European or Canadian?
@mdb831
Жыл бұрын
Crazy stuff
@SteveJobsIsGod
Жыл бұрын
“I’m done with it”
@barryo5158
Жыл бұрын
Exactly the type of attitude we don’t need from ATC.
@gatolibero8329
Жыл бұрын
F-ck it, we'll do it live. I'll navigate it, and we'll do it live! F-ckin' thing SUCKS.
@amaurea3000
Жыл бұрын
@@barryo5158 Yes and no. You have to be able to work past near-misses. Hashing it over on frequency when it's not his fault is not going to help him move on and keep working, especially when you're working a busy departure push.
@michaelborucki2896
Жыл бұрын
Not the place and time to take or lay fault.
@barryo5158
Жыл бұрын
I said "attitude". @@amaurea3000
@DaveLee83
Жыл бұрын
That departure controller needs an attitude adjustment
@kamikaze6363
Жыл бұрын
For real. I know the guy is stressed over what just happened, but he needs to take it down a notch or three.
@AndrewBlacker-wr2ve
Жыл бұрын
@@kamikaze6363"but SHE needs..."
@muzzcovw7674
Жыл бұрын
@@AndrewBlacker-wr2ve 😆
@AndrewBlacker-wr2ve
Жыл бұрын
@@muzzcovw7674 Just simple grammar. I'm thinking it went past you too. Sucks to be a bonehead.
@mattwebb02
Жыл бұрын
Seems a pretty normal response to me given he nearly saw two passenger airliners collide.
@laxembcaptg
Жыл бұрын
Denver , DFW still make you confirm the first fix on all RVAV departures
@mijo3642
Жыл бұрын
They normally do "RNAV to XXXX clear take off rwy XX". Especially with parallel rwys like LAX, SFO, PHX, BOS etc.
@DougW224
Жыл бұрын
American likely had a departure change on their PDC and missed it during preflight.....Also the tower controller just cleared them for takeoff without saying the first fix on the SID. If he had said "RNAV WIVLA, RWY 26 cleared for takeoff", which is the first fix on the FORPE departure, the pilots should have realized they had the wrong departure programmed. Isn't the first time this has happened and honestly, won't be the last either.....
@justaguy427
Жыл бұрын
When it changes they usually communicate it to them on ground prior to taxi with a readback.
@joelriemersma730
Жыл бұрын
@@justaguy427not if the change was issued with their PDC.
@stenic2
Жыл бұрын
Well for simultaneous departure I would rather assign initial divergent headings instead on relying on rnp procedures, or else delete all southbound Sids from the right runway…
@zeus6352
Жыл бұрын
WOW !!!! that was close !!!
@vannguyen2825
2 ай бұрын
When ATC f@rkup they BLAME some1 else but when the Pilot does messed up I have a Numbers for U to copy. IT'S WASN'T ME BY SHAGGY!!!ATC work with pilot hand in hand, the Pilot should say to ATC I have number 4U to copy. "I'M DONE WITH IT"!!!
@MB-rr1fb
Жыл бұрын
Why wouldn't flights on parallel runways have the takeoff times spread out by at least a minute............seems like an accident waiting to happen
@aniwack
Жыл бұрын
3:14 American was expecting a phone number...
@On-Our-Radar-24News
Жыл бұрын
We are just one more incident away from two commercial airplanes colliding on the runway or a mid air. These incidents are exponentially increasing. We have new pilots and new ATC. Pilots out there please remain vigilant and verify ATC instructions. ATC out there please get your head in the game and increase your awareness especially when you have dual runway operations. I am of the opinion that that ATC should have a sterile cockpit rule like pilots where if they are plugged in and operating then no extraneous conversation, no cell phone usage, no distractions whatsoever. The FAA is going to get involved and start making more rules and regulations if the pilot and ATC community doesn't get their act together!
@Hatredy11
Жыл бұрын
The Wolf: Get it straight, gentlemen: I'm not here to say please, I'm here to tell you what to do. And if self-preservation is an instinct that you possess, you'd better do it and do it quick. If my help's not appreciated, lots of luck, gentlemen. If I'm curt with you, it's because time is a factor here. I think fast, I talk fast, and I need you guys to act fast if you want to get out of this. So, pretty please, with sugar on top. I’m done with it.
@TakeDeadAim
Жыл бұрын
Always love me some PF!
@gregorypitts8093
Жыл бұрын
Ok boys and girls, I have my flight instructor hat on, “Look out the damn window before you roll into ANY turn”.
@SC-dp1gv
Жыл бұрын
You don’t fly for an airline right? Are we supposed to do procedure turns before following a departures? And what about imc conditions? Can’t follow the damn sid, can’t see out of the window….
@gregorypitts8093
Жыл бұрын
@@SC-dp1gv guess 10,000 hours most of it airline doesn’t qualify me. I’m not saying make a PT, I am sayin don’t just go on assumptions.
@RLTtizME
Жыл бұрын
@@gregorypitts8093 Impressive. Are you doing the Monty Python strut? Do you wear your headset around the house?
@gregorypitts8093
Жыл бұрын
@@RLTtizME ok don’t look out window
@RLTtizME
Жыл бұрын
@@gregorypitts8093 Do you sit on the can with your headset on? You are a frisky little Flyboy.
@v1rotate391
Жыл бұрын
I’m done with it.
@c5ec5e
Жыл бұрын
According to FlightAware, AAL1388 was filed in the system to depart using the FORPE1 departure, which means this is likely pilot error. It is possible that the clearance delivery read the pilots the wrong departure, but since PHX has PDC, it's likely the pilots got the clearance electronically so an ATC error seems less likely. AAL1388 had been assigned the BROAK1 the day before this incident, as well as other times in the past, so it's likely that expectation bias played a role here.
@kewkabe
Жыл бұрын
It could also be a late TMU reroute which would update in FlightAware but if AAL already had their clearance, they may not have gotten the updated one.
@Q1776Q
Жыл бұрын
You could be right.... but their departure waypoints are displayed right in front of them....Maybe they were originally going to depart from 25R or L and got switched to 26. We may never know....
@CharlesCornettFL
Жыл бұрын
The likelihood that the pilots made the error is very slim. These clearances are delivered electronically and typos are hard to do, unless there was a late change from TMU you or ATC. True data link, which is something that something that ATC has been waiting on for over 30 years, would help eliminate this. Both the controller's display and the aircraft displays would show the same thing.
@torgy3
Жыл бұрын
Never flown into PHX but most others will give you cleared for take off 22L rnav “FORDZ” or 12L runway heading. Does PHX not do this ?
@jakeoesterreich8037
Жыл бұрын
You realize that what flightaware shoes is what is filed, which is not the clearance that is received. They are separate and the flightaware one is not updated
@imaPangolin
Жыл бұрын
The takeoff clearance for American was wrong. They should have been told “rnav …(fix name) cleared for takeoff Rwy 26”. That would have stopped it right there. Simultaneously departing off 26 and 25R are rare. Normally it’s only 25R.
@ukasz6836
Жыл бұрын
What a failure on ATC side of things. See conflict, instead of reacting, making sure it's up to the crews to provide separation. Yuck!
@cantstop21
Жыл бұрын
Our lives, in their hands, every single time. We sure are a trusting bunch aren't we? Ya, ya, ya, I know that driving my car to work is far more dangerous.
@brmam1385
10 ай бұрын
The AAL pilot saying “I’m done with it” & you could hear the near miss in his voice! What the hell?
@gistsc
Жыл бұрын
At the rate these close calls are happening, we will have a midair soon. Scary stuff. The system is broke!
@MrMarcec85
Жыл бұрын
Not only the aviation one :)
@hgbugalou
Жыл бұрын
The system is not broke. It works remarkably well. The government just needs to give the FAA the funding to hire more controllers and accelerate the work on full GPS navigation. Lack of controllers is the problem.
@carbonking53
Жыл бұрын
@hgbugalou We can't waste money on saving lives in the sky via the FAA. Ukraine needs us to send more money and the illegals crossing the southern border need more money to be bused, housed, and fed on our dime. Get your priorities straight...sarc
@MrMarcec85
Жыл бұрын
@@carbonking53 your main problems are police, mass shootings and drug, not Ukraine 😅
@hgbugalou
Жыл бұрын
@@carbonking53 Ehh... We aren't sending Ukraine cash, we are sending them weapons and in turn upgrading/refreshing ours at home. That seems like a good thing. Russia isn't our friend and never has been; they want to see the US weak so they can dominate. As far as the border goes, I am pretty sure a country with our GDP could handle both the FAA and it at the same time if we didn't allow rich people and politicians brainwash us with the red vs blue crap to the point we never get anything done.
@kathleenegan6658
Жыл бұрын
At 2:04 you can hear one of the pilots go "Whoo!"
@rotcmaverick
Жыл бұрын
That was a tracon controller.
@AwesomePilotGuy
Жыл бұрын
Me thinks someone missed the revised segment in the PDC...
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