After watching your 3 hr testimony last night and now this…you have one mean curve ball man. This is some hard ball stuff that is humbling my Protestant swing…I’m where you were in 2015ish (if memory serves from your video, probably earlier) and I have to tell you this is messing me up, in a good way, but messed up nonetheless. Praise God for such suffering (and I would relish the opportunity to speak with you). Thank you 🙏🏻
@bottomoftherabbithole
9 ай бұрын
Thank God! 🙏☦️ what a blessing to know that this has been a worthy challenge to inspire you engage the ancient faith and re-evaluate your own Protestant paradigm! I would be honored and humbled to be of any use to you as you continue this journey toward the Holy Orthodox Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ through His Apostles. I know you said in another comment you're not on Fbook and don't have messenger but feel free to email me at: trincapm01@gmail.com May our risen Lord continue to bless and guide you!
@leannewheeler5351
9 ай бұрын
I said the same to my husband. I cant go back. Every sunday I got to my protestant church and it feels like a foreign place. A familiar and kind group, but in my heart, I dont belong there.
@FuzzyMutt76
9 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbithole thank you 🙏🏻 I went to my first Orthodox service yesterday…I’ll send you an email here soon. Thank you again!!
@WeakestAvenger
9 ай бұрын
@@leannewheeler5351 This describes well how I have been feeling at my non-denominational Protestant church for much of this year. I don't belong there.
@FuzzyMutt76
9 ай бұрын
@bottomoftherabbithole Reader Paul, I imagine it’ll please you to know I’m now a Catachumen in the Orthodox Church…thank you for your part in my journey, truly, thank you 🙏🏻 Glory be to God.
@ReneCharisma
5 ай бұрын
"There is no excuse for being a Protestant in 2023" - this quote has stuck with me 🙂
@ApostolicEchoes
6 ай бұрын
I’m a former Oneness Pentecostal. My family and I converted to the Holy Orthodox Church. The last year or so I’ve been sending my parents and siblings material from the Early Church. Through your videos my mother is being drawn to Holy Orthodoxy. Unfortunately my father claims I am “leading her to hell”. They are non practicing Protestants. Please pray for them. Their names are James and Rebecca. Lord have mercy on us. ☦️
@EricDunn1234
6 ай бұрын
44 year old Protestant found dry. Life and joy came back with Orthodoxy.
@dr.dannygentry7823
9 ай бұрын
I was 53 when Orthodoxy found ME. I wasn’t expecting it at all. I grew up in a Protestant environment, “got saved” at 13 and eventually went on to be a seminarian and Baptist minister. In some of the first discussions I had with my now priest, I told him I felt like I was adrift and orthodoxy surfaced like a submarine out of nowhere and rescued me. Honestly, it ended up being the issue of the canon of scripture and sola Scriptura that sent me searching. I had no idea that my questions would set me adrift from my Protestant foundation and then end up in the most unlikely of places…the Orthodox Church. I honestly think if a person is intellectually honest looks at the NT and the writings of the early church fathers with clear eyes, the Orthodox Church emerges as THE church established by Christ. There is simply no room for debate because the clear facts of history and logic make it irrefutable. Once confronted with this truth, I had to decide what to do with it, and I wanted to worship the true and living God…so I knew that whatever preconceived nonsense I had digested, I needed to trust that the Holy Spirit had led me to THE CHURCH (The bride of Christ) and I needed to let her lead. Additionally, I had no idea how my wife would react to this. So, when we visited the Divine Liturgy for the first time and we were headed home afterwards, I asked her what she thought and she said, “I felt a peace I’ve never felt before and I knew I was home.” She said (and this is coming from a generational Baptist), “When the priest passed me during the great entrance, I knew Jesus had just passed by, and it was like nothing I’ve ever experienced.” We are now baptized, chrismated, and home!
@malindsell
9 ай бұрын
Loved your comment, brother, as it is exactly where I am at now. I was a Baptist minister from 1982-2001, having trained at Spurgeon’s College in London. However, since 1996 I have been drawn to Orthodoxy, little by little, mainly as a result of my search for a place to worship God in “reverence and awe”. Contemporary churches just seem so shallow. I’ve been visiting a local Greek Orthodox Church for just under two years but sadly my wife just isn’t in the same place as yours! She thinks I’m going off the rails. The priest is a monk, from St Sophrony’s monastery in Essex (England). A man of great wisdom and godliness. May God bless you in your journey. I hope to be chrismated next year.
@lornadoone8887
9 ай бұрын
I love this! Your image of the submarine emerging out of nowhere to rescue you is so apt. My issue was Calvinist PSA dominating my Evangelical world and my coming to a realization of its incoherence with the love of God revealed in the face of Christ on the Cross. It was the Holy Spirit dropping that “heart strangely warmed” experience while reading the occasional Orthodox article or Father or historical fact sprinkled over a few years that directed me to the Church. It’s been 16 years-I’ve never looked back.
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
@@malindsellwhat a lovely story.. so far..all the best. Sounds like you are in very good hands. I surmise that you might be in London..? We used to go to the Russian church near Albert Hall. I do know where a large Greek church is north of it.. Memories coming back.. God, bless..☦💝☦
@malindsell
5 ай бұрын
@@lindaphillips4646 No, I’m in Buckinghamshire in fact. Since posting last our priest has moved away, the services are now 98% Greek language, and I have linked with a Russian Orthodox Church in Oxford that at least has two services a month in 90% English! There is such a great need for liturgy in English.
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
@@malindselloh, that's wonderful. I also have been to that church for a few services. I have had many blessings. ☦💝📿💝☦
@biffkline8771
9 ай бұрын
I might humbly add, that if one is listening to this, and their eyes are being opened to the truth, that doesn't negate all the good and holy things you have done in life up to this point. The Holy Spirit has guided you here, and is encouraging you to take the next step on your journey. 🙏☦️
@TheB1nary
9 ай бұрын
Thanks for that! I struggle with this a lot - having spent over 35 years as a Protestant, much of that Reformed Baptist (having even served as an elder). I often struggle to see how I can move forward - or even leave all of that stuff behind - because it seems so…wasted!!!
@t-bonet-bone713
6 ай бұрын
@@TheB1narysame here I sometimes feel like I’ve wasted my time (45 years) in the Protestant world.
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
@@TheB1narythe Lord is calling you on His schedule. You were in those places for reasons.. although i DO understand wishing to have found the TRUTH earlier. You may be able to serve the Lord in unique ways because of your history. ☦💝📿💝☦
@nivchek
3 ай бұрын
I recently read a story from the Soviet period. A woman who was raised to be a party-loyal communist, but had always been very altruistic and loving, was on an early deathbed in the 1980s. Her believing husband ran to the Vladimir icon of the Mother of God and begged her to lead his wife to salvation somehow. While he was in the midst of doing this, she had a dream of the Virgin Mary coming to her. She said, “get baptized, or all your good works will be in vain!” She was enlightened by this and was baptized and communed just before her death. Glory to God. So be encouraged!
@lindaphillips4646
3 ай бұрын
@@nivchekBeautiful. I understand what those who wrote before this feel and have felt... and i rejoice in what you wrote, because the Theotokos told her how all those good , kind things that she did would not be wasted, but saved... Very interesting. And seems to fit quite beautifully into the kind ways of Our Lord. [BTW, i don't think that there were many places in the ussr where icons were still displayed, except in the frescoes of those churches which were not destroyed for 'cultural' reasons, including in the MOSCOW KREMLIN, of all places. The Rublev Vladimir icon of the Mother of God was (and still is, i think) displayed in the Tretyakov Museum, along with his Visitation of Abraham, (the HOLY TRINITY icon, which was given this last year to the Holy Trinity Cathedral, the newly rebuilt church near the Kremlin.) (I had the joy of seeing/venerating them, but it was before i was received into the Church.) My point for saying this, (not knowing where he might have been, of course) is that it is possible that he ran to the Treytyakov Gallery to pray to the Mother of God before Her icon. Or to a copy of it in other museums. ) In any case, a wonderful story filled with love. ☦☦ ONE MORE COMMENT: There was a special feeling in the room where those icons were hanging. I am sure that the faithful were well aware of that. I have no doubt that that man felt like he was being heard.. even though he did not know if She would act. Glory to God! Gives such hope. ☦☦
@JohnBlades
9 ай бұрын
As a protestant of the reformed tradition who is exploring Orthodoxy, I have never heard this point before and yeah, it made me pause. Definitely something to think about.
@amandabosebar1985
11 ай бұрын
As a Protestant, I acknowledge these things, and once you do, it’s very hard to be a committed Protestant, like , damn near impossible. Pray for me brothers and sisters as I continue to contend with these things.
@Yeshuite
11 ай бұрын
with you 100%
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
@AJWilson1 baseless assertions are unproductive and will be deleted (for anyone reading along, he had said that these arguments don't apply to magisterial protestantism). In reality, they literally all directly and equally apply to magisterial protestantism lol. Sola scriptura is the epistemic foundation for classical protestantism (which this video explicitly refutes), and classical protestantism still requires the arbitrary redefinition of the Church in order to sustain itself. Watch the YT interview Rock and Sand with Fr. Josiah Trenham for a more thorough and historical explanation: kzitem.info/news/bejne/0Z-MyqaqoKFoi6wsi=HKvhblenFTo5yAhK
@Theoretically-ko6lr
10 ай бұрын
❤
@nkoppa5332
10 ай бұрын
@@Anglochog1??? How would these critiques somehow fail against the Church of England and Luther?
@theosophicalwanderings7696
10 ай бұрын
The problem with this video is that you can raise these same exact questions against a Jew during the time of Christ. How did the Jews know what scripture was then?
@swenner64
9 ай бұрын
Brovo!! Well argued!!! As a former Protestant now Orthodox I've realized that when I dialog with my Protestant friends they always appeal to the authority of their own interpretation of scripture and demand that I submit to their authority. It makes me laugh 😃.
@GuitarJesse7
7 ай бұрын
The points you made at the end about cognitive dissonance is so true. I was an evangelical for about 27 years and a staff “worship leader” for 15. At the point that I encountered more details about the ancient church and also just read the scriptures through a lens outside of the novel Protestant/evangelical one, it became clear that I couldn’t remain in my job or my long held spiritual paradigm. It also led me to be more honest about many issues I had known weren’t the way of Christ within Evangelicalism, but had suppressed because I didn’t know where else I could go, not to mention my career was caught up in it. All that to say, the spiritual weight was incredibly heavy until I had a big conversation with the leaders of my old congregation. It’s still very heavy when you can see either the blindness and ignorance in some people, or the willful rejection and pride in others who refuse to honestly follow the conclusions of some of what you have talked about here, along with many issues. So thankful that the Lord blessed my desire to know and follow the truth wherever it lead and gave me and my family the strength to make a huge shift in our lives. Lord have mercy on us and all those who are oblivious to or odds with your One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. Keep up the good work Reader Paul!
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
☦💝📿💝☦
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
"Once a Christian moves beyond one's initial provincialism and becomes aware of other Christian traditions, two roads open up. On the one hand, one may embrace the multiplicity of denominations and theologies as legitimate diversity, exalted in the various and sundry ways in which God relates to different people and in which they relate to Him. On the other hand, one may see the multiplicity of denominations not as an inherent good, but as a profound theological problem, as a direct contradiction of St. Paul's affirmation of 𝗼𝗻𝗲 𝗟𝗼𝗿𝗱, 𝗼𝗻𝗲 𝗳𝗮𝗶𝘁𝗵, 𝗼𝗻𝗲 𝗕𝗮𝗽𝘁𝗶𝘀𝗺 (Ehesians 4:5). The first alternative is, to put it bluntly, pure theological relativism. It is, however, the position adopted by the vast majority of Protestants, whether Evengelical or liberal. Long before the advent of the rainbow-clad partisans of multiculturalism and alternative lifestyles, the Protestant world, with very few exceptions, had accepted the premise that the illogical and ecclesiological diversity was an inherent good. For those of us who have embraced the second alternative, the problem of the multiplicity of Christian denominations and theologies has become 𝗼𝘂𝗿 problem in a very real and existential way. We perceive the divisions within the Christian World precisely as a challenge to our personal ability to be faithful to the Gospel. The question of the Church becomes the question of the Christian life itself: '𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘀𝗮𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘂𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝗠𝗲, '𝗟𝗼𝗿𝗱, 𝗟𝗼𝗿𝗱', 𝘀𝗵𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗲𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗱𝗼𝗺 𝗼𝗳 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻; 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗱𝗼𝗲𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗠𝘆 𝗙𝗮𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝘄𝗵𝗼 𝗶𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻' (Matthew 7:21)." [...]Those who choose the first alternative embark upon a utilitarian quest: amidst the plethora of denominations in theologies, what insights can I gain, what techniques can I learn that will 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗽 me and my spiritual walk? What kind of worship services are best for young people, for attracting the unchurched, Etc. In other words, what 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝘀 to reach people, or helps them "grow"? This ultimately leads to "Willow Creek theology," that is, the theology of success: if it 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝘀, it is of God. The utilitarian approach, however, begs several important questions. Who is this God I am supposed to be encountering? What is it that He expects of me? If an idea or a technique 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗽𝘀 me to feel better about myself, makes me 𝗳𝗲𝗲𝗹 more spiritual, does it necessarily follow the idea or technique is of God? What is missing in this approach is precisely the quest for 𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙩𝙝." --Clark Carlton, "The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church"
@melissabarham4837
11 ай бұрын
I have tried to explain this to my oldest son, but I am rather new and not an intellectual. Besides that, I am quite passionate about this topic, so I get upset easily trying to discuss this topic. Thank you my dear brother for this eloquent and informative video. I sent it to him, and I hope that he will at least try to listen. God bless you. ☦️❤️🤗
@Beastify9pointO
10 ай бұрын
Having the same problem myself with my family (PS being intellectual doesn’t help me with it)
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God my sister in Christ! Praying that the Lord would soften his heart and awaken him to the reality of these fundamental problems that the honest, Christ-loving truth seeker must wrestle with🙏☦
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
@@Beastify9pointO Lord have mercy!
@joeskill4663
8 ай бұрын
Very good. Ya I would just send the video. It’s up to them to do some research. If they ignore listening to it, then that’s on them. We can’t force anybody to faith. I’m 53 and have learned that the hard way at times. You keep them in your prayer and encourage them when you feel it’s right. But as for me I don’t worry myself sick. A friend 30 years ago planted a little seed in my pea brain,,,😀….he said “ Joe I’m gong to become Orthodox “. 30 years later I’m on KZitem looking at videos of Protestants becoming Orthodox,, same time remembering my friend and what he told me and me not knowing anything about Orthodox Christianity ..😳 ..after 30 years we get a hold of each other and I find out he is a decon in the Orthodox Church and he gives me his testimony…💥
@NoOneWroteThis
9 ай бұрын
Fantastic explanation and examination. Thank you for sharing! I'm Orthodox and talking to Protestant friends often feels like we're speaking two languages because we are
@shandorh.1725
Ай бұрын
I was told by my then Presbyterian pastor that there was no organized Church for centuries until the "true" church was formed after the Reformation! He said Christians were literally hiding in caves, etc., unorganized with no hierarchy. This is while I was reading about early Church history and mind was being blown by what I was reading...I fell on my knees and wept over being deceived for decades as I began "Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells" (book by Matthew Gallatin). We became Orthodox in 2007 after decades of Protestantism and have never looked back. Glory to God!
@itsmelorijayne
Күн бұрын
Reader Paul thanks for this articulate video. I'm Orthodox since 2021, praying for all those questioning! ☦️
@stevenanderson4515
9 ай бұрын
funny story, i had a group of Mormons convert me to Orthodoxy. They approached me as they do, and asked if i wanted to talk about God, naturally i said yes as i just started my masters in apologetics. We chatted a bit, near the end of the conversation i agreed the world was fallen blah blah blag, but asked they why did they stop at Smiths understanding of scripture why not dive back to calvin or luther...... they responded they didnt know.... but in the very instance i uttered that question to them, i was hit like a truck.... i didnt have an answer either for being a prot.... so back back i went like following a merky creek to where the clean water springs from the ground.
@TheTransfiguredLife
11 ай бұрын
Reader Paul well said!! May our protestant friends realize the self-refuting position of this epistemology! ☦️
@Theoretically-ko6lr
10 ай бұрын
Pray to God for them and for us the Orthodox. This is the only way that by God’s grace they see the truth ❤
@TheTransfiguredLife
10 ай бұрын
@@Theoretically-ko6lr True!! Lord have mercy! ☦️💯💯
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Grant this, O Lord! Appreciate you my brother in Christ!
@Paddle-N-Fish
9 ай бұрын
Well done, thanks! After being raised a heathen, then getting "saved" converting to evangelical, then bouncing around to all different kinds of churches for 30 years, then completely deconstructing all my beliefs and going back to the world for many years. When the desire to be a Christian again hit me in 2020, there was only one place left I could go to find the true faith! 😊
@Osafune2
11 ай бұрын
I love my parents and am thankful for their sincere love for Christ that was always been the bedrock of our family. But I do struggle with their staunch Protestantism at times. They are so awake to so many issues, they refused a certain medical substance aged 70, and are so skeptical of every narrative and are critical of modernism and wokeism… but they don’t see that protestantism is part of modernity, it’s a crucial event on the timeline toward Clown World. Even before returning to Christ, I always saw the Protestant reformation as a key piece of the puzzle into how the west became what it is (of course this can be ultimately be traced back to the schism when the west severed itself from the Truth.)
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
This was very well put, and I can relate to the frustration of this kind of interpersonal experience. It really is so disheartening to know people who are so zealous for the truth of all these other subjects...who will research and research and research for hours on end, reading books and watching presentations on this, that and the other thing. But then when it comes to the very truth of Christianity, their self-professed foundation for their entire worldview, it's like pulling teeth and they can't be bothered. Lord have mercy! May God grant us the grace and patience to lead by example and stir them up out of their apathy.
@showmeanedge
10 ай бұрын
I've been on a journey in this last month that has led me to the doors of the Orthodox Church. I'm going to my second Liturgy this morning and when the parish priest gets back from his trip I'm going to ask him to make me a catechumen. You were the first orthodox channel I've subscribed to so thank you for your witness, reader Paul. ☦️
@showmeanedge
10 ай бұрын
An update - Liturgy was a wonder yet again and I spoke to the father. First he asked me point blank if I want to be Orthodox and I didn't even need to think it over. It's a mixed Russian/English parish so he told me I could go far out of my way to the English-only parishes or they will have me there and the English-speaking priest can be my spiritual father and take me on as a catechumen. I don't see any particular reason to turn my nose up at the Liturgy in Russian (they mix Russian and English together and the service book helped me keep up) so I've decided to stick with them. So again, many thanks reader Paul! God willing I'll be able to call you a brother in Christ in a year or so. God bless you. 🙏
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God! I'm sorry for the delay, I've barely had any time to respond to any comments lately, but I just wanted to encourage you and let you know that I so much appreciate you sharing these details of your journey and experience. What inspiring comments to read! I'm grateful to God that you've found this content beneficial to you in any way on your journey toward and into Christ's Holy Church. If you don't mind sharing your first name, I'd be honored to offer my unworthy prayers for you along your journey. May our risen Lord continue to bless and guide you! Pray for me, a sinner🙏☦️
@showmeanedge
10 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbithole That's alright, you have a large family on your hands. My wife and I have two and that's already a handful. My name is Justin and I'm in western Canada - please do pray for me. I know this isn't going to be easy. ☦️
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
@@showmeanedgesuch wonderful news. Our church has a mixture of Russian and English. Good for you for seeing something good in that.. You get the best of both worlds and the Russians bring GREAT depth many times to the life of the church. ☦💝📿💝☦
@paulpoblocki6138
Ай бұрын
This is a brilliant, compelling defense of objective truth and must see TV for any defender of the one true faith of Jesus Christ.
@orthodox_soul
11 ай бұрын
Gotta love it when I watch a video that's basically like listening to myself think out loud in a brother's voice. Solid presentation. Love you bro.
@t-bonet-bone713
11 ай бұрын
PLEASE HELP ME!! As a protestant, who is still investigating for the last nine months (including attending St Mark Greek Orthodox Church) , I have learned many things.. The only hurdle that I see for me, which I have not researched on, is the claim by the protestants, that the orthodox church today is not the same church as was in the first century that the doctrines whether it’s liturgy or the form of worship, they conduct is a distortion of what the first century church was. That is the linchpin for me. Do you have any suggestions of books for me, that I can research, and say yes, the church today is exactly the way it was conducted in the first century or for the most part it is or no it’s not an apostolic succession from the original church. Please help! Once I can clear this off my table tha Orthodoxy is verified that is the original church in teaching, I will seek catechism, baptism and chrismation.
@cayetanohuett9037
11 ай бұрын
@@t-bonet-bone713 Check out The Didache, which is the teachings of The Early Church and how the worship should be conducted. There is a Eucharist etc maybe it will help you my brother. God Bless
@mannss42884
10 ай бұрын
@t-bonet-bone713 have you watched or read 'rock and sand' by Father Josiah Trentham
@t-bonet-bone713
10 ай бұрын
@@mannss42884thanks for your direction. I watch farther Trentham interview about the book but have not read it. I will look further to the book.
@Journey_of_Abundance
10 ай бұрын
@@t-bonet-bone713 "the Jewish roots of Christian worship" by Orthodox Shahada is a must watch video on this topic. It is exactly what you are looking for.
@JamesSayre-nj5pj
Ай бұрын
I thank God for your channel sir . Your work help solidify my going deeper into Orthodoxy . I am now attending my local Parrish and I am officially a catacueman Glory to God
@DevinMork
11 ай бұрын
Yeah, basically articulating the take-down of my previously held Protestant convictions that unfolded over the course of 3 - 4 months. You can't un-see it.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
I can't tell you how many times I've heard that exact phrase with respect to former Protestants: "once you see it, you can't unsee it." Best someone can do is actively delude themselves into believing a falsehood, but most people who have a shred of deep rooted integrity, self respect and concern for truth can't live like that forever. Such a joy to hear of your moving toward the ancient faith! May our risen Lord continue to bless and guide you🙏☦️
@stallelio376
2 күн бұрын
I love this video, I don’t normally watch videos more than once but this video right here made me go back a couple times now. I’m a Protestant looking into orthodoxy. This video gives me relief about the things I’ve started to consider, thank you Reader Paul. God really did use this video greatly and made me realize the fatality of Protestantism, it had lead me to my foundational beliefs about why Protestantism is false. Again, thank you so much. I love this video so much, may God bless you and your family
@ReneCharisma
5 ай бұрын
After being a Protestant for 20 years, my entire family joined the Church 3 years ago ☦️💜 Here in Canada, the majority of the new converts are former Protestants
@bottomoftherabbithole
5 ай бұрын
Glory to God! 🙏☦️Hard to imagine that we might only be at the beginning of the explosion of conversions in the West!
@NavelOrangeGazer
11 ай бұрын
The wildest part about the American folk religion that passes itself off as Christianity is that the classic reformers whether they be Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Hus, Knox, Wesley, etc wouldn't recognize the myriad of sects that exist now. Even ones that claim to follow in their "tradition." "we all have our own truth" Who said it modern protestant or new agers?
@acekoala457
11 ай бұрын
I have had this conversation with several people from my old congregation. I am now shunned.
@NavelOrangeGazer
11 ай бұрын
@@acekoala457 Lord have mercy on those deceived from truth.
@user-qe8pr1yp7f
11 ай бұрын
@@acekoala457 Trying to explain and share things with RC and EC, its near impossible to. Hold tight to the truth. Keep strong and move forward.
@acekoala457
11 ай бұрын
@@user-qe8pr1yp7f I am Orthodox lol. My Little brother and his Fiance are converting and planning on being married in the Church. I found out that I have been labeled a "Dangerous Person" by my old Calvary Chapel congregation.
@deadalivemaniac
11 ай бұрын
And that all the Reformers considered each other heretical despite having the five solas and had differing beliefs despite reading the same Scripture.
@EasternRomanAficionado
4 ай бұрын
Man, this is one of the best videos on Protestantism I've ever seen. You are one of my new favorite KZitemrs.
@juliamahoney1509
9 ай бұрын
I am continually encouraged more and more towards Orthodoxy. This just put me over the top!
@jhust69
11 ай бұрын
I was a Protestant for my whole life (40+ years) and all of these issues and more were questions that I had myself. I was forced to just set these issues aside and spend my time debating on Calvinist vs Armenian because it felt like a good place to start defining what the “truth” was … that left me with an even bigger void. Long story short, I had sadly never even heard about the Orthodox faith other than those guys are “just another false gospel like the Mormons etc” and besides, they’re clearly idolaters and worship idols I told myself… but that void never was filled UNTIL I was at my spiritual crossroads and I had to ask God to help me because I can’t step into another reformed church again with a clean conscience. And after some low and behold here comes a video by another KZitemr who had a interview with Fr Josiah Trenham and that knocked the hat right off my head! I began to take seriously this who Orthodox/Catholic thing and to my pleasant surprise literally all of my issue were laid to rest for the first time in my life. Pray for me and my eventual joining of the Orthodox Church. This is a very very hard thing because my wife and my kids are and have be taught that the Protestant faith were the truth and all others were “another gospel” and they’re not young anymore so trying to unravel that isn’t easy. Side note - the beautiful thing that basically sealed the deal for me was the Orthodox faith goes all the way back to Pentecost! I didn’t have to turn to just another new religion or faith … or another denomination of 30,000 different flavors… no I can go back to the beginning… powerful. ❤️
@nicodemuseam
11 ай бұрын
As a Protestant in the Assemblies of God, I recognized in myself that I did not have the fruits of the Holy Spirit and that I was living a very sinful life. I prayed to God to guide me into the acquisition of His gifts and began a very painful process of worldview conversion when i began to look into arguments for God(I had shortly come back to Protestantism from atheism), and i found some Sedevacantists online who were publishing what, for me at the time, was some very convincing material. Unfortunately, Sedevacantism, as a schism from Roman Catholicism, was and is something of a very exclusive doomsday cult. I fell into the grift and began proselytizing their message, becoming very puffed up and prideful and destroying my fanilial relationships. It was when i hit rock bottom that I found Orthodoxy, and slowly began digging myself out of the hole i had dug into. I had to wrestle a long time with the claims of Roman Catholicism versus Orthodoxy, but those gradually fell away during and after my catechesis and Baptism into the Orthodox Church. The life in Christ is a struggle, but He promised us that. The acquisition of virtue is difficult for me because of my lack of gratitude, my laziness, my indifference, my pride, my proclivity for sexual sin.... But God, in His mercy, is helping me with all of that. Glory to Jesus Christ, together with His Father and the Holy Spirit, amen. I hope and pray that God grants you many helps in your coming struggles.
@jhust69
11 ай бұрын
@@nicodemuseam Thank you.
@noblegamer8740
11 ай бұрын
@jhust69 I pray for you brother. I am in a similar situation. Early 30s and have known about/listened to Orthodoxy for the past few years. Having a hard time convincing my wife though haha.
@DanielVanOrden
11 ай бұрын
God bless you, brother. It is not an easy journey, and there will be times where you encounter things still that set off your "radar." Remember that it took a certain amount of time before you were ready to receive the Orthodox Faith, so it might take just as long for your other family members. Just keep praying for them, and honestly the biggest thing that will really speak to them is when the closer relationship with the Lord begins to really affect your heart. They will feel it and have to grapple with that as well. Also, little comments go a LONG way, especially when timely and said in love.
@jhust69
11 ай бұрын
@@DanielVanOrden Thank you 🙏
@Whaat-in-the-world
10 ай бұрын
This is fantastic and so well worded! One thing: as a Protestant, I never thought the early Church was corrupt; I just thought the Protestants brought back the early Church teachings (...because I sorely lacked knowledge of Church history). So I think some Protestants just believe they currently believe the same as the early Church because of ignorance of history.
@TheB1nary
9 ай бұрын
A book has recently been published in which that is the whole argument (“Reformation as Renewal”). It’s well-researched and very well written, but the big mistake the author makes is that he hinges his argument on the Reformation being a renewal of the medieaval Christian faith, and thinks that the Reformers were sitting well within the “stream” of orthodox Christianity as a consequence. The Reformers were literally reviving the teachings of the early Christians - not, as Rome argued, denying everything the Church held to. Fascinatingly wrong.
@reddog5552
6 ай бұрын
I grew up in the Church of Christ but fell away from formal church going along with my mother in my teenage years. I continued to pray and have a one on one churchless relationship with God as best I could until I fell under the temporary spell of Russian Jewish novelist and philosopher Ayn Rand (Alice Rosenbaum) between the ages of 19 and about 26. I never could fully accept the atheism part of all of that though. And like you I explored lots of conspiratorial rabbit holes too thanks to the influence of overnight talk show host Art Bell. My mother converted to Catholicism in the Jubilee year but I just could never accept what all the Catholic Church has accepted when it comes to certain things in this modern world. I only be became fully explicitly aware of the existence of the Orthodox Church and what it truly is a little over year ago and am now seeking to become a catechumen as soon as I can finally decide between the two most viable Orthodox churches near where I live. One is a smaller OCA affiliated one, and the other is a much larger Antiochan affiliated one. We are so blessed to have someone so knowledgeable and intelligent making videos that we can watch to provide cogent truthful answer to these vital questions of our faith. Especially for newcomers like myself. I only wish I could have learned of all of this at least thirty years sooner. Thank you for all of your great work. ☦️🙏🏻
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
So glad for you. I spent a LONG time late last night reading responses to Reader Paul. Had MEANT to watch his video, but got sidetracked into wonderful and hopeful comments. Will watch at another time. My story would be different but i know the pain and suffering that led me to HAVE to find TRUTH, which i begged the Lord to lead me to. I was received in 2003 and my husband in 2005.. Spent as much time as i could singing in the choir. (Was out for 4 years because of his illness, but i get back now whenever i can..and get to sing again.) The happiest days of my life have been since i was led to the Orthodox church. (Not that facing my sins has been easy, but even as i face and confess them, i live in hope, and the joy i feel when forgiven.) GOD, BLESS..☦💝📿💝☦
@hmkzosimaskrampis3185
5 ай бұрын
We should clarify and stress that the ultimate authority in the Orthodox Church is the collective testimony of the saints whom God glorifies over time, which will necessarily be in conjunction with the Scriptures and holy tradition.
@kaybrown4010
11 ай бұрын
Reader Paul, thank you for this thoughtful and thought provoking video. Don’t change a thing, keep telling it like it is! Being my own pope was burdensome. Great is God’s mercy! ❤️☦️
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Burdensome is to put it lightly; it was a soul-crushing and impossible weight! Glory to our merciful and long-suffering Lord! Thank you for your encouraging words, my sister in Christ. Also, my wife really enjoys talking with you 😊
@sabrinafair35
9 ай бұрын
Outstanding presentation, and on point. I had already come to this conclusion after, finally begging the question “where did my bible come from? Why are there so many versions? Who decided what would go into the biblical canon, and when?” I prayed and told myself, I need to let of go of my own bias presuppositions and look into the matter. I decided I wanted the church that the apostles established (I never knew about Orthodoxy until this journey). Was I to believe that for 1500 years, there was only false Christianity? I also heard the “blackout” explanation from a baptist minister, which was vague. When I have shared my journey with other Protestants (non-denominational), in addition to “I only believe what’s in the Bible”, but also “those are idols!” And “Christ said do this in remembrance of me” I said that also at one time, before I sought answers. Thank you for this video 🙏🏼 I am having to relearn many things that i rejected. Orthodoxy is active Christianity and resolves the question of what it means to a true believer in the church that the apostles established, some of which still exist today.
@deadalivemaniac
11 ай бұрын
As a former Calvinist who’s been arguing these points for months, awesome job! I’m glad you alluded to the doctrine of the right of private judgement. That is, I believe, the silver bullet to Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I’m also glad you brought up Calvinist presup. People like James White will argue that nothing is neutral and interpretations are driven by one’s presuppositions but the Scriptures are objective? Someone once said inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument, right, Mr. White? Plus, I find Calvinist presup hilarious. Total depravity affects you down to your very intellect, even after regeneration, that’s why you sin. So how do they know they have the correct presuppositions, let alone the correct interpretation of Scripture? How do they know they aren’t being deceived? I’m rambling, great video!
@NavelOrangeGazer
11 ай бұрын
They don't know thats why proto prosperity gospel began with the hyper calvinist Puritans. They needed some indicator they were elect so they went with material prosperity in this world and justified it the way protestants always do. Out of context quote mine of scripture.
@ContraMundum33
11 ай бұрын
Spot on!! I’m an ex Calvinist too, I know and feel exactly where you’re coming from.
@deadalivemaniac
11 ай бұрын
@@NavelOrangeGazer I see somebody read themselves done Weber! Glad I see you all over the place, great discussion and argumentative material!
@PB4U
10 ай бұрын
If we reject the "doctrine" of private judgement, how can apostasy ever be recognized? When the "visible church" teaches doctrines evidently contradicting the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, do I need to reject Jesus and the Apostles? Or do I reject the tradition of the church? Taking away personal judgement and responsibility opens the way for church and clergy to become unchecked apostate and despotic, as we have seen in history.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Excellent point about the relevant and devastating impact of the doctrine of Total Depravity on their epistemology. Reformed presup is about as self-aware as a guy living under a blanket tent in an alleyway mocking a homeless guy who's stuck in the rain 5 feet away from him.
@joeskill4663
8 ай бұрын
Just learning about Orthodoxy. And I’m Really enjoying this guy..👍🏽🙏🏽❤️🩹
@zzzaaayyynnn
11 ай бұрын
Nicely explained, brother! A purely subjective Christianity based on "faith" alone with no historical/scriptural authority leads to nothing but lots of smug egos and religious cults.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God! and you ain't kiddin'. If it's purely subjective, it's obviously false!
@kountryboy_tx
9 ай бұрын
I became a Catholic one year ago. My parents remain Protestants of evangelical denomination. Pray for their conversion as it’s very difficult to reason with them.
@undyne4032
9 ай бұрын
Gonna add your intention to my rosary, God bless you brother!
@acekoala457
11 ай бұрын
St. Justin Popovich helped my friend understand the errors in Protestantism prior to his coming into the Orthodox Church.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
His writings are SO powerful, particularly his writings on heresy and the Church! Glory to God in His Saints!
@christophjasinski4804
9 ай бұрын
What specific writing was helpful?
@vaporizejello
9 ай бұрын
This for me was the most compelling reason to become Orthodox. I couldn't reconcile the relativistic theology (mini Pope) way of thinking any longer. Currently a catechumen. Never been happier.
@bobomax164
11 ай бұрын
You took my exact thoughts on the subject and worded them in the most definitive and irrefutable way possible. God bless you.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God! I'm so glad I don't have to explain this to anyone anymore and I can finally just link to this video haha.
@thecriticalnous
7 ай бұрын
I was born Orthodox but briefly moved to Protestantism before returning to the ancient church. I’ve noticed a lot of Protestants are converting to Orthodoxy. By the way , do you have thoughts or a video on old calendar vs new ? Thanks 🙏
@dravendfr
6 ай бұрын
I’ve found faith amongst Southern Baptists, but I have been digging into the history and subtly nudging family members towards Orthodoxy. Apostolic Succession, and denomination maps point to one church having maintained and preserved the word, that being the Orthodox Church. Catholicism under the Pope has lead to over forty-thousand denominations seeking to return to the original faith at best, and deliberately taking liberty for their own gain at worst exemplified by the mega churches in the United States. I have no idea how I might ever attend an Orthodox Church, but it would be a true gift to attend someday.
@TheRadChadDad
5 ай бұрын
Fantastic presentation…very thought-provoking, and honest. ☦️☦️☦️
@eddardgreybeard
10 ай бұрын
Except for the part where they reject the deuterocanonical books, which all of pre-reformation Christianity accepts as canon. edit - 15 mins in. Ah, you address this. Ah, and on top of the blackout period, it's the nebulous grey area of 69 - 314 AD when "Constantine formed the Catholic Church." I always ask them "what was this true Church and why did the gates of hell prevail against it," but they tend to not like that question.
@tlucas7031
9 ай бұрын
Matthew 16:18 doesn’t say what you’re trying to make it say The word for church in Greek -εκκλεσια- is used to translate the Hebrew word for the Israelite assembly- קהל - which was heavily defined by who it excluded. Jesus and the Apostles were quite notable for including people who would have been excluded from the assembly (such as the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8.) The “gates of hell” bit is not an accurate translation. A better translation would be the “gates of Sheol,” aka, death. Isaiah 38:10 uses the same phrasing. This verse alludes not to the institutions you’re trying to apply it to, but would have been clearly understood by the Apostles to refer to Christ’s victory over death, and the establishment of a new assembly defined by that victory over death.
@eddardgreybeard
9 ай бұрын
@@tlucas7031 Thanks for sharing, Lucas. Whatever the crap it is you were even trying to say, anyway.
@Journey_of_Abundance
11 ай бұрын
Easily the best video on the topic. Cuts straight to the heart of the issue. Well done, Reader Paul.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God! This was my intention. I actually wanted to make this video way shorter, but it's always easier to explain these things in my head then it is to lay them out in a clear and digestible way haha. I pray it pierces the humble and open hearts of those that watch/listen
@xanderzb
5 ай бұрын
This was the conclusion I intuited about ten or eleven years ago, upon seeing Holy Orthodoxy in person - having been a hardcore Sola Scriptura Bible Student for three years leading up to that. What struck me was how immediately obvious it was that - not only does Orthodoxy answer basically all the “little” details, but they’ve done so *consistently* for nearly two millennia. There really wasn’t any escaping it. I mean, I suppose I *could* have dug in my heels on something; or dragged myself slowly enough to find enough “bad behavior” to comfortably “excuse myself” etc. But not while being *honest* with myself.
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
🎵"BLESS THE LORD, OH, MY SOUL". (At the end of the video as you plead for those who hear not to harden their hearts. Lord, have mercy. ) A psalm from the Rachmaninov All-Night Vigil. Some of the most beautiful music ever composed. A solo sung by, at that time, one of the most beautiful alto voices in Russia. Had the joy of hearing the full music with her singing this. Rachmaninoff was a member of the Russian church in L.A. MEMORY ETERNAL!, SERGEI !
@hirakisk1973
4 ай бұрын
This was one of the conclusions that I came to as a Protestant and started me on my journey to Orthodoxy. Protestants pick and chose what they want to believe in regard to the Ecumenical Councils. They accept the council that gave us the NT, but reject the SAME council on its inclusion of the "apocrypha" as the OT. They accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and Jesus Christ being both fully human and fully divine, but reject other doctrines that they don't want to believe.
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
Rdr. PAUL, PLEASE read to the end of this comment. I know you will understand. Thank you for your 💝's to my earlier words. Excellent words re: sola scriptura. Time we heard logical arguments being used against it. In the early 2000's my husband and i heard a talk by a very well-known priest who had been prnst and had been received with fellow church leaders and church members of their kind-of orthodox church into the Antiochian Orthodox Church, here in LA, actually. He told about an experience he had had in a prtsnt seminary when the class was studying the history of the N.T. Canon: one of his fellow students, whom he said had later become Orthodox, asked the teacher how they all could so firmly hold onto the New Testament as holy, flawless scripture upon which they were basing their lives and souls, when the very Church which they said had apotatized from almost the time of the death of the last apostle , was the Church that had chosen, verified, and canonized the books of the N.T.? How could the choices of a fallen church be accepted as true? The professor's answer was that he didn't have an answer to that. And that the student would probably better off not to ask that question again.. LORD, HAVE MERCY.. THERE we are..🤔🤔🤔
@kalebsmith3942
11 ай бұрын
Thanks for making this video man. I have a protestant Uncle that I am really trying to get to convert, I’ll definitely use some of the points that you made. God bless and Glory to Jesus Christ☦️🙏
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God, my brother in Christ! I'm so thankful to hear that you found this presentation helpful in some way. May the Lord soften your Uncle's heart to the true faith!
@PXLF1970
3 ай бұрын
I’m a Pentecostal and I stand corrected and amazed. That was so easily explained.
@bottomoftherabbithole
3 ай бұрын
Glory to God🙏☦️
@ChristianWario
7 ай бұрын
Excellent video. A lot of these arguments apply even more so to Restorationist groups who have official doctrines of a supposed “Great Apostasy” occurring after the death of the Apostles. Coming from a background where I used to believe in such a doctrine, this video is very useful for me. Thank you, and God bless! ☦️
@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760
11 ай бұрын
I would like to see Gavin Ortland go after this. Solid! One thing though that does bother me Reader Paul. It is probably just me and my old lady sensibility, but I personally can’t relish in this kind of beat down. Forgive me. I’ll keep watching, but I am sensitive to any air of mean spiritedness. I agree with your points though. No doubt. Stacy g.
@NavelOrangeGazer
11 ай бұрын
He won't, Gavin doesn't address silver bullets aimed at protestantism. He only attacks strawmen of the Orthodox position to feed his ignorant audience with low hanging fruit designed to tickle their confirmation biases.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
God forgives, and I forgive! Forgive me, a sinner. I wouldn't hold your breath on Mr. Ortland substantively addressing any of the points herein...the only way for his paradigm to perceivably survive in the minds of his audience is to focus on peripheral issues that don't cut to the heart of the issues that divide; namely: ecclesiology/epistemology. With regard to the "beat down" as it was presented here, I plan on addressing this concern in a video soon. I will say this, here though just so you can at least perhaps understand a bit more where I'm coming from with all this, for whatever it might be worth. The way I view videos like this, is that they are presentations dealing with ideas as the subject matter. This is not a personal conversation, and thus my delivery is going to differ from how I would engage this subjects privately and personally. I have had hundreds of conversations over the years with inquirers from all different backgrounds, and I am pretty keenly aware of the uniquely sensitive stumbling blocks that people face depending on what tradition they are inquiring from. I am also acutely aware that I am essentially exposing and dismantling deeply held convictions that are intertwined with peoples' personal identities. Thus, when I engage people personally, I can glean and navigate these sensitivities in each respective case. There is no way I can possibly navigate all of the potential degrees of sensitive personalities out there in these video presentations without being monotone, dry and insufferably boring. Not only would this stifle my personal style of effective communication, but this would also make for videos that few would actually want to watch. And I don't find it sensible or good to cater to the most sensitive personalities out there as a defualt at the expense of those who like to be "punched in the gut" with the truth, so to speak (like myself). Some people like the cold hard truth; the "just give it to me straight types" who can separate their emotions from the delivery and just objectively analyze the contents of the argument. Other people need kid gloves, and to be eased into the depths of these polemical arguments. In other words, while I agree wholeheartedly that tone and delivery style is indeed important, I also fully realize and acknowledge that there is no one size fits all approach for the extremely diverse personalities out there. Thus, I am consciously striving to walk the line in these videos in a way that exudes grace yet doesn't stifle my unique personality and communication skills; that cuts right to the heart of the issues and mercilessly destroys these false ideas that have taken my friends and loved ones spiritually captive (the first portion of this video), while also making sure to humbly present the solution to these grievous errors (as I attempted to do in the latter portion). It is not an easy balance to walk, so please do continue to pray for me in this regard. Finally, with regard to the occasional memery, I firmly believe that getting someone to laugh at themselves a little can help soften the blow of these devastating errors for those people with an open heart and ears to hear. It's just like when tensions are high between two people, and something funny happens that makes them both laugh a little and immediately it can be as if the thing causing the tension is no longer an issue. There is a viral video (sadly, it's quite crude) of a man with road rage who gets out of his vehicle and is threatening to assault the other driver. He is absolutely furious and screaming etc. but then he misspeaks (unfortunately in a very vulgar way) that leads him to laugh in a self-depreciating way when he recognizes it. Immediately they both start laughing and the conflict was over. I view hard heartedness toward truth in the same way. A timely suggestion for some self-depreciating humor can help soften people's hearts to accept the truth they are resisting. Of course, this can also backfire too, and turn people off. For me, I think it will mostly turn off people whose hearts are already hardened, but only God can know that. So I would expect some memery to continue at times in my videos, but know that I will be doing my best to walk the line between well-intentioned and calculated ribbing, and outright mockery for condescension's sake (God forbid). At any rate, again...pray for me, a sinner🙏☦
@SaltShack
9 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbitholePlease do continue to “mercilessly destroy”. It’s necessary and essential work and there is no way I know to reveal the Truth without demonstrating everything contrary is in fact wrong. God’s Grace is available to all as you’ve pointed out but in return we have an obligation to diligently strive for our good account before the fearsome and awesome judgment seat of Christ. How does anyone make the best accounting possible, all things being equal, if they are not even aware of the Truth that’s uniquely even exclusively embodied in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. May God Grant You Many Years.
@bottomoftherabbithole
9 ай бұрын
@SaltShack I appreciate your perspective and encouragement so much; thank you! Glory to God☦️
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
You are in the business of earnestly helping walk people from truly-troubling positions to a better place. I thought what you did was excellent, and that you gave your listeners the credit of being able to hear truth when it is firmly presented. They can watch it, stop, rewind, repeat.. at their own pace. Those who are perishing, and i mean, perishing, and know it, are hungering for truth. I know. I remember. ☦💝📿💝☦
@t-bonet-bone713
6 ай бұрын
This is probably the 8th time I’ve watched this.
@vaporizejello
6 ай бұрын
4th for me
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
Your words at the end are deeply important. Yes, over and over i fear for those who will just NOT listen.. who leave snarky comments which show that their hearts and minds hear nothing from loving Orthodox videos.. Yes, your words were perfect.
@tino5735
8 ай бұрын
This is a brilliant video. I'm currently Catholic, but will admit to being on the fence about whether or not I want to stay. I've always, even from the time of being a kid, had misgivings about even the idea of and philosophy behind the Pope. I certainly am incredibly uncomfortable, at the very least, with the idea of his infallibility. I don't care if it's only when speaking ex cathedra or not, it's like an instinctual reaction. Anyhow, only recently have I seriously considered really diving into the pursuit of truth with both feet. At the outset, I had an inkling that my only real options were either staying put or converting to Orthodoxy, but I found channels like Redeemed Zoomer who seemed to make at least a halfway compelling case for Protestant theology, even if choosing from one of the hundred Protestant churches was confusing. This video puts that to rest, and I thank you for it. I will continue my discernment. I pray for the humility to let the Holy Spirit guide me (your quote about humility opening the way to the Kingdom of God was also brilliant). May God bless and keep you. Maybe some day the churches will reunite. I think that'd be lovely.
@tino5735
8 ай бұрын
Also, does anyone know if I can find the music at the end anywhere? Or something like it? It's beautiful.
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
@@tino5735it is from Rachmaninoff's All-night Vigil. I made a comment which is probably still up near the top.. It is probably from one of the Sacred Treasures CD's from several years ago. The choir from St. Petersburg, as i remember, recorded the whole service in the early 2000's. I can't remember the name at the moment. The hymn is a psalm, number i don't remember, "BLESS THE LORD, OH, MY SOUL.".
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
@@tino5735there are many recordings of the All-night Vigil, but this may be the best.
@Nikolai.A.McGuire
26 күн бұрын
Ayo am I the only one that just sends people this video to show them the truth of eastern orthodoxy? By the way BOTRH (Bottom Of The Rabbit Hole) Great, great, great video! It's so well put together and is great for me (and possible others) to show to my protestant friends (or even catholic friends for that matter), you explained everything perfectly and concisely (idk why but most ortho yt-ers make like 3h long videos, I respect the passion but it's hard to source them) while even being entertaining, God bless you, and the church fathers, your kindred by flesh, friends, neighbors, neighbors of you friends, kindred, etc, and wish you the best, GREAT VIDEO, Keep up the good work!
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
One more comment: i remember in my years of fear about not knowing where to go.. (and i finally realized that ptntnstm was the problem), that i almost in tears would remember that i was supposed to work out my salvation in fear and trembling, but that i had no idea how to do that. NOR did i have any way of understanding how to work out Theology, because my church had no theology, other than what they all kind of believed. I could not work out the theology upon which to work out my salivation. My relief that the Orthodox Church had done that for me a long time ago was a relief beyond my words to describe.. The prtstnts will argue and pick and bicker about so much, every jot and tittle, and we converts just beg them, beg them, to open their hearts, minds, emotions at least a little to even consider the possibility that they might be resisting their own real salvation. FR. HOLLAND'S words the other night about SALVATION were excellent, BTW.☦💝📿💝☦
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
I was talking to my priest confessor this morning and he started talking about the COMMUNAL aspects of the Orthodox church.. and the cultures in which it has existed for more than a 1000 years. The way the people have a sense of oneness, and communal heart ,(even with those who are not religious) that the forensic, legalistic, individualistic west does not have. And how we feel that Communion with the Church and the Saints when we walk through the doors, whether we know the source or not. He talked about how the Church was one..east and west for a long time.. But he said that the bubonic plague in europe in the 600s wiped out huge numbers and left the cultures with a loss of knowledge and reading that the east never experienced. For 400 years. That the Church which lost huge numbers of clergy who could read, had to develop a more firm, legalistic approach to things merely to continue. Which eventually led to the schism (although more people were literate by that time.) But it led to a more legalistic way of viewing things and we know the rest of the story. I am reporting his words as best i can.. making mistakes, perhaps. I bring this up because i wonder if you would like to track down those ideas and expand on them? Almost all of us who commented here come from such a legalistic, forensic, individualistic background. (I am not saying that no westerners love others.. i am talking about the overarching way of government in any description, including in the western churches..has handled things a long time.) We converts to the Orthodox church are learning to be in Communion with our brethren in our local churches, in the US, in the world, and in heaven, as we never knew before. A great blessing. I have deeper friendships now than i ever have had before and i am learning better each day.. GOD, BLESS..☦💝📿💝☦
@theeliteelite1873
Ай бұрын
This video very well articulated things I've begun to realize this year. I allowed myself to question the Protestant worldview I was raised with and actually realized how asinine and unworkable Sola Scriptura is. Currently discerning between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
@bottomoftherabbithole
Ай бұрын
@@theeliteelite1873 glory to God! Keep seeking. "Knock, and the door shall be opened unto you" Also, I have a playlist on RCism as well that may be useful for you🙏☦️ kzitem.info/door/PLqhjJ813ZM--xYqBbF145S9zReKiUPsbF&si=8_iCsilAYAFRvMAm
@theeliteelite1873
Ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbithole I appreciate it (actually watching one of those videos already right now). I will admit, my bias would be to lean towards Catholicism. I've been attending a Latin Mass for the past several months and have found it to be a beautiful service that actually feels like it's meant to be worship of God and not entertainment for people. But it is a sedevacantist Catholic church, which has been something in the back of my mind that seems to be a problem. (Strikes me as kind of like how the Protestant movement originally started: we see serious problems in the RCC, so we'll just schism) It's just undeniable that the RCC is in total chaos post Vatican II and that the Novus Ordo is not at all like the TLM. The crackdown on traditionalist Bishops while Bishops that push the alphabet agenda continue to hold authority with not so much as a finger wagging. I plan to attend a Vespers service this Saturday evening and then the Divine Liturgy Sunday morning. As foreign as Mass was to me the first time I went, I'm expecting Divine Liturgy to be even more foreign to me.
@walkerburmeister
6 ай бұрын
So good, thank you for this, Reader Paul! ☦️
@tlucas7031
9 ай бұрын
I do not find the points of your equation to be convincing. Full disclosure-I’m an Anabaptist, and thus a Protestant, as well as having recently finished my master’s degree in history. It was actually studying the writings of the church fathers in their historical context that led me to Anabaptism. From studying the earliest extra-biblical Christian writings, I came to the conclusion that Anabaptism best represents early Christian practice, ecclesiology, and doctrine. To your point on X, I would point out that the canon of Scripture was already mostly set when the institutional church gave it its stamp of approval. The church really can’t take credit for the Jewish canon of Scripture, and the Muratorian Fragment shows that the New Testament canon was mostly agreed upon centuries prior to any official declaration of what it should include. And the way I understand it, that’s what the orthodox position on dogma is- declaring something that orthodox theologians already believe. Point is, sola scriptura doesn’t require institutional authority as a presupposition, as you allege- it only requires a general agreement on the canon of Scripture, which ancient sources suggest existed. To your point on Y, I would say that all that the orthodox perspective just shifts the burden of interpretation to someone else. You criticize Protestants for interpreting Scripture, as you say, but your theology is just derived from someone else doing the same, longer ago. The fact is, a text means something. There is a meaning that the author intended to communicate and that the reader can find through study. This is what the postmodernists But it seems that the orthodox view holds that that’s not possible, somehow? Does a text have a meaning, or not? The irony is that you talk about Protestant presuppositions, while your arguments only work if the listener accepts orthodox presuppositions. To the point on ecclesiology, I would ask- how far can the church’s structure and practice change before it drifts outside of what is acceptable? How much precedent must Christians accept, in your worldview, and how powerful is precedent in determining what the church should look like? Because based on the rare pre-constantinian sources that we do have on Christianity outside the Bible, the church of the Apostles, and immediately after, looked nothing like Eastern Orthodoxy- there was no priesthood, loosely defined liturgy, loose organization and poorly defined hierarchies. It seems like the orthodox worldview asks us to accept this (and more) solely on the basis that it was instituted later. Do you hold that anything done in the past becomes an indisputable Christian practice, or is there room for reform?
@orthodox_soul
9 ай бұрын
Hey there brother. Between the hundreds of comments he's trying to address and the 7 kids he has to wrangle, Paul can be a pretty busy guy. I'd hate for your comment to go unanswered, so if you don't mind, I'd like to take a crack at offering you a response. Paul and I are in alignment in much of our way of thinking--the only real difference you might get are in the specifics of our presentation. For starters, since you were so forthcoming, I'll just say that we would classify the origin of Anabaptism as belonging to the Radical Reformation era and certainly not the Early Church--though of course the point of the Reformed mindset is viewing itself as returning to its roots. I get that. But the only way to arrive at that conclusion **from** reading the Fathers, as you said is what led you to this position, is if you're 1) interpreting the writings of the Father's in isolation from the *rest* of their beliefs, which would only happen if 2) you're imposing your presuppositions onto the literature, which may cause you to automatically recontextualize or disregard certain crucial portions of texts relating to the beliefs and practices of the earliest Christians. But more importantly, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that--as evidenced in your response to X concerning the canon and your response to Y concerning interpretation of it--you've fundamentally missed the real substance of the issue, which is an issue of authority. "To your point on X, I would point out that the canon of Scripture was already mostly set when the institutional church gave it its stamp of approval.." I'd push back on this point first by simply pointing out that a number of bishops held to differing lists of texts they each thought possessed canonical status over the centuries, and secondly to ask, according to Anabaptism, even if they **did** all agree, why would consensus mean anything if you've already rejected institutional authority? During the Arian controversy, the majority of bishops was almost unanimously in favor of Arianism, for a time--ought we derive the truth of Christology from that consensus? I think you would agree that we shouldn't, but according to your argument as it's currently presented, you couldn't actually justify **why** we shouldn't, while also remaining consistent in your reasoning, since you said: "sola scriptura doesn’t require institutional authority as a presupposition, as you allege--it only requires a general agreement on the canon of Scripture." If you're saying general agreement = how we know the truth, I've just demonstrated one reason why that's problematic. Another reason it's problematic is that it's a circular argument, because you're presupposing the canon by citing consensus (which presumes they knew the canon) as a means of deriving the canon. In other words, how do we know the canon? "Because the majority of true Christians believed in these texts." How do we know who the true Christians are? "Because of the canon of Scripture." Along this line of reasoning which rejects canonical authority and divorces it from the historic process of the formation of the canon of Scripture, the canon is never granted justification for its own existence and is simply assumed. "To your point on Y, I would say that all that the orthodox perspective just shifts the burden of interpretation to someone else. You criticize Protestants for interpreting Scripture, as you say, but your theology is just derived from someone else doing the same, longer ago." This is where you missed the substance of the issue in a significant way, which I mentioned above, because you're confusing two different categories: individual epistemic certitude v.s. normative authority. The problem isn't just a question of **how** we ought to interpret Scripture--because as far as Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants go, all three claim to use the same mechanism: the inner witness of the Holy Spirit (that's the epistemic certitude)--but rather, it's a question of **who** has the ability to bind the conscience of the faithful to any given doctrinal position (that's the normative authority). With respect to Arius, there were two competing interpretations of the Scripture. Yet, it wasn't just a matter of where the "burden of interpretation" lay, but on what grounds the Church had the right to say, "No, this is heresy. You, Arius, are a heretic who has failed to repent for being out of alignment with *our* teachings on this matter, and are thus excommunicated from this *visible and institutional* Body of believers, because you have gone outside of the canonical boundaries with your teachings." That's a matter of canonical authority. This distinction between individual epistemic certitude and normative authority is an absolutely fundamental one to grasp, because it is one which, among other things, disqualifies your assertion concerning Anabaptist ecclesiology as it directly contradicts the historically apostolic/hierarchical structure of the Church. "The fact is, a text means something. There is a meaning that the author intended to communicate and that the reader can find through study... But it seems that the orthodox view holds that that’s not possible, somehow? Does a text have a meaning, or not?" This view you've expressed is not representative of the Orthodox mindset, as my statements above should have clarified already. I don't know any Orthodox that say or believe this, because we don't create this unnecessary dichotomy: **either** you have to believe everything the Early Father's taught and never think for yourself, **or** you decide what to believe entirely on your own, by subjecting the Bible to the authority of your personal interpretation according to your own cognitive faculties alone. Higher studies are all well and good; we simply don't read the Bible in isolation from the witness of the Church, because it isn't **strictly** a private devotional. We might agree that "the reader can find [the meaning] through study" to some extent, but would disagree with the notion that you'll ever arrive at a holistic understanding of the faith through a purely academic approach while divorced from the life of the Church that actually produced the Scripture. Having a master in history though you may, you and I are still far removed from "the meaning that the author intended to communicate" by multiple layers of separation--linguistically, culturally, geographically and of course by time itself. "The irony is that you talk about Protestant presuppositions, while your arguments only work if the listener accepts orthodox presuppositions" We don't presuppose Orthodoxy, because again, without the Church with her authority, there would be no canon (or any and everyone would have the right to declare whatever canon they choose at any time). Protestantism can't give a consistent, rational account for this and must simply presuppose the canon itself. We don't have that dilemma, because we can answer the higher order question which comes prior which doctrines are true or false, but rather who has the authority to determine what beliefs are or aren't Christian, based on who has the authority to determine the canon of Scripture. "...based on the rare pre-constantinian sources that we do have on Christianity outside the Bible, the church of the Apostles, and immediately after, looked nothing like Eastern Orthodoxy- there was no priesthood, loosely defined liturgy, loose organization and poorly defined hierarchies." Even if we conceded this point--which we would utterly reject, to be clear--the Church being refined in certain ways in terms of administrational hierarchy or liturgical rites is a far cry from saying that it "looked **nothing** like Eastern Orthodoxy". Perhaps it's just the choice of words, but given that you're a history buff, I'd speculate that that's being rather disingenuous on your part. The Apostolic structure/the recognized presence and acknowledged authority of bishops in the Early Church is not some obscure or ambiguous detail of history (as we can see in the words of someone like St. Ignatius, which is about as early of a post-apostolic source we can get, having been discipled by the Apostles directly). The clerical office, which is there in Scripture, was present from the earliest centuries onward, and it was they who administered the Sacraments. To try to cite "loose organization and poorly defined hierarchies" as evidence against Orthodoxy during a time in which the Church was 1) in Her infancy and 2) heavily persecuted is negligible at best and overtly fallacious at worst. We may as well cite the failure to coin the term "Trinity" sooner than it did as evidence that the Church "looks nothing like Orthodoxy". The Church becoming more refined in terms of Church administration, or more precise in its terminology as previously Revealed theology was expounded upon by later generations, or having certain liturgical practices receive more structure and become more normative as the Church expanded and became less persecuted is not the same context of "change" as the one you're implying. "Do you hold that anything done in the past becomes an indisputable Christian practice, or is there room for reform?" For us, if certain matters have been settled in the Church, then they have been settled for all of us, for good. I don't have the authority to remove books from the canon like the Reformers did, or to unilaterally restructure ecclesiology, or to redefine Baptism, or any other issue which Protestants quickly began fragmenting over. To think that reform would be needed presupposes that the Orthodox Church is plagued by the same kind of theological errors as in the Roman Catholic Church or in Protestantism, which is not the case. We have unity in beliefs and practices, continuity with the praxis of ancient times, and purity of doctrine. There is no need to reform the Church, the Church is supposed to reform us.
@tlucas7031
9 ай бұрын
@@orthodox_soul Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think conversations like this are inherently valuable. And as someone who writes walls of text about important subjects in KZitem comments sections, I can appreciate conversing with someone who does the same. I want to respond to your points without making this unreadable, so I'm going to trim quotes down a bit. Just know that if I do that, I'm not trying to misrepresent what you're saying, I'm just trying to streamline our essays we wrote here. “For starters, since you were so forthcoming, I'll just say that we would classify the origin of Anabaptism as belonging to the Radical Reformation era and certainly not the Early Church--though of course the point of the Reformed mindset is viewing itself as returning to its roots. I get that. But the only way to arrive at that conclusion *from* reading the Fathers, as you said is what led you to this position, is if you're 1) interpreting the writings of the Father's in isolation from the rest of their beliefs, which would only happen if 2) you're imposing your presuppositions onto the literature, which may cause you to automatically recontextualize or disregard certain crucial portions of texts relating to the beliefs and practices of the earliest Christians.” This is an interesting point, because that's been my entire argument about Eastern Orthodoxy- that later presuppositions are imposed onto earlier texts. I would counter that I'm not interpreting the writings of the Fathers in isolation from the rest of their beliefs, but in isolation from the beliefs of later Christians. “I'd push back on this point first by simply pointing out that a number of bishops held to differing lists of texts they each thought possessed canonical status over the centuries, and secondly to ask, according to Anabaptism, even if they *did* all agree, why would consensus mean anything if you've already rejected institutional authority?” Consensus shows that Christians are capable of discerning what documents were consistent with both doctrine, and the Jewish Scriptures. It's a rejection of institutional authority in the sense that institutional authority isn't necessary as a rubber stamp of approval for what people were already doing. Bishops arguing about whether to include James or Revelation doesn't bother me so much when you have widespread agreement on the Gospels and Romans. “During the Arian controversy, the majority of bishops was almost unanimously in favor of Arianism, for a time--ought we derive the truth of Christology from that consensus?” This might seem pedantic, but I'm not sure that that claim is accurate. It certainly seems unlikely, given that Constantine called the Council of Nicaea to simply resolve the controversy, not to support any particular position. With that in mind, I don't think its unreasonable to assume that those invited were representative of Eastern Christianity, which weakens the argument that Arianism was widespread. “I think you would agree that we shouldn't, but according to your argument as it's currently presented, you couldn't actually justify *why* we shouldn't, while also remaining consistent in your reasoning, since you said: "sola scriptura doesn’t require institutional authority as a presupposition, as you allege--it only requires a general agreement on the canon of Scripture." If you're saying general agreement = how we know the truth, I've just demonstrated one reason why that's problematic.” The reasoning is consistent if the Scriptures do in fact teach a non-Arian understanding of the Trinity. Arius, as I recall, was heavily influenced by Platonism- it shouldn't have been too difficult to see the conflict there for his contemporaries. The extremely one-sided Council of Nicaea suggests that it was not. “Another reason it's problematic is that it's a circular argument, because you're presupposing the canon by citing consensus (which presumes they knew the canon) as a means of deriving the canon. In other words, how do we know the canon? "Because the majority of true Christians believed in these texts." How do we know who the true Christians are? "Because of the canon of Scripture."” You could make the same circular reasoning argument for Orthodoxy's appeal to church authority. “We know the Church has authority because it teaches that is has authority, and the church's teaching are correct because the Church's teaching are authoritative. But fundamentally, this analysis is missing a major component- the meaning of the text itself. The Gospels contain the words of Jesus, the Pauline Epistles contain the words of Paul. By reading their words, we can understand what they taught, and those who believe those teachings are, by definition, the “true Christians.” I can also see a potential counter argument of “well, how do you know that those texts accurately reflect what Jesus and Paul said?” That's a question that is partially one of faith, and partially one of textual criticism. But its also not one that's solved by a group of bishops saying that its accurate. What I'm really trying to say is that were don't need a canonization to understand what the canon of Scripture is. By using the term “canon,” I'm really conceding to your terminology. On the surface, that may sound at odds with the idea of “sola scritpura,” but its really not. What I'm arguing is that if you took the entirety of Pre-Niceae Christian writings, you could understand what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Even if you included, for example, the Gnostic Gospels and the writings of the Arians, it would be rather obvious where the conflicts in those views lie. “Along this line of reasoning which rejects canonical authority and divorces it from the historic process of the formation of the canon of Scripture, the canon is never granted justification for its own existence and is simply assumed.” As I said above, my point is less about canonical authority and more about ascertaining what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
@tlucas7031
9 ай бұрын
@@orthodox_soul "To your point on Y... This is where you missed the substance of the issue in a significant way, which I mentioned above, because you're confusing two different categories: individual epistemic certitude v.s. normative authority. The problem isn't just a question of *how* we ought to interpret Scripture--because as far as Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants go, all three claim to use the same mechanism: the inner witness of the Holy Spirit (that's the epistemic certitude)--but rather, it's a question of *who* has the ability to bind the conscience of the faithful to any given doctrinal position (that's the normative authority). The disagreement I have with this framework stems from the qualifier of “individual” added to epistemic certitude. Epistemic certitude simply means that there is no rational basis for disbelieving the belief in question. It seems that the purpose of this distinction is to create a dichotomy of subjective vs objective, in which the person reading the Scriptures is subjective, and the Church's teachings are objective. I don't think that dichotomy works. It is, in fact, possible to ascertain the meaning of the text with epistemic certainty. The above also assumes that teachings from church's normative authority are inherently objective, which is not something that has been demonstrated here. “With respect to Arius, there were two competing interpretations of the Scripture.” There weren't just two competing interpretations of Scripture- there was a right one and a wrong one. The one that brought imposed Platonic concepts onto the text that the Jewish authors of the New Testament wouldn't have appealed to is far more likely to be the incorrect one. “Yet, it wasn't just a matter of where the "burden of interpretation" lay, but on what grounds the Church had the right to say, "No, this is heresy. You, Arius, are a heretic who has failed to repent for being out of alignment with our teachings on this matter, and are thus excommunicated from this visible and institutional Body of believers, because you have gone outside of the canonical boundaries with your teachings." That's a matter of canonical authority. This distinction between individual epistemic certitude and normative authority is an absolutely fundamental one to grasp...” Making that distinction implies that its possible for the two to be in conflict- that one can have epistemic certitude that x is true, but someone else can state with normative authority that x is not true. But again, the qualifier “individual” is added to force a subjective/objective dichotomy. And I would be remiss to point out that appeals to authority is a logical fallacy in deduction. If one were actually to believe with epistemic certitude (no rational basis to disbelieve) that x is true, and the normative authority says that x is not true, then it would be illogical to believe what the authority says. In making a deduction about what Jesus or the Apostles taught, then, we should look to the text and not the teachings of someone else. “...because it is one which, among other things, disqualifies your assertion concerning Anabaptist ecclesiology as it directly contradicts the historically apostolic/hierarchical structure of the Church.” I don't think this is supported by historical sources. The hierarchical structures of the Church appeared after the time of the Apostles. “This view you've expressed is not representative of the Orthodox mindset, as my statements above should have clarified already. I don't know any Orthodox that say or believe this, because we don't create this unnecessary dichotomy: *either* you have to believe everything the Early Father's taught and never think for yourself, *or* you decide what to believe entirely on your own, by subjecting the Bible to the authority of your personal interpretation according to your own cognitive faculties alone.” I don't create that dichotomy either. My position is that what the Early Fathers taught is at odds with Orthodox doctrine and practice (to be clear, I'm defining Early Father as Pre-Niceae). Neither would I argue that studying the text leads to “decid[ing] what to believe entirely on your own, by subjecting the Bible to the authority of your personal interpretation according to your own cognitive faculties alone.” It's not about a personal interpretation, its about what the author intended to communicate. That the author intended to communicate a specific message is actually an objective fact, as much as the postmodernists may want to deny that. “Higher studies are all well and good; we simply don't read the Bible in isolation from the witness of the Church, because it isn't *strictly* a private devotional.” This is another false dichotomy. Treating the Bible as a text that has a specific meaning that can be ascertained is not the same thing as treating it as a private devotional. To put it bluntly, not reading the text in isolation from the teachings of the Church is the problem. It's imposing beliefs that developed later, that were foreign to the writers of the text, onto the Scriptures. That sort of eisegesis will prevent one from understanding the text. “We might agree that "the reader can find [the meaning] through study" to some extent, but would disagree with the notion that you'll ever arrive at a holistic understanding of the faith through a purely academic approach while divorced from the life of the Church that actually produced the Scripture.” I agree with what you say we agree upon, but I also agree with what you say we disagree on. Our actual disagreement stems from different views of what constitutes “life of the Church that actually produced the Scripture.” “Having a master in history though you may, you and I are still far removed from "the meaning that the author intended to communicate" by multiple layers of separation--linguistically, culturally, geographically and of course by time itself.” True, that's the fundamental problem that all studies of historical documents face. It was also faced by earlier Church authorities of eras past. Medieval bishops had the same problem. "The irony is that you talk about Protestant presuppositions, while your arguments only work if the listener accepts orthodox presuppositions" We don't presuppose Orthodoxy, because again, without the Church with her authority, there would be no canon (or any and everyone would have the right to declare whatever canon they choose at any time). Protestantism can't give a consistent, rational account for this and must simply presuppose the canon itself. We don't have that dilemma, because we can answer the higher order question which comes prior which doctrines are true or false, but rather who has the authority to determine what beliefs are or aren't Christian, based on who has the authority to determine the canon of Scripture.” I won't rehash what I already said before, but the “based on who has the authority,” part is the Orthodox presupposition. "...based on the rare pre-constantinian sources that we do have on Christianity outside the Bible, the church of the Apostles, and immediately after, looked nothing like Eastern Orthodoxy- there was no priesthood, loosely defined liturgy, loose organization and poorly defined hierarchies." Even if we conceded this point--which we would utterly reject, to be clear--the Church being refined in certain ways in terms of administrational hierarchy or liturgical rites is a far cry from saying that it "looked *nothing* like Eastern Orthodoxy". Perhaps it's just the choice of words, but given that you're a history buff, I'd speculate that that's being rather disingenuous on your part. Ok, now I have to take personal offense at that one. I'm never disingenuous. I can admit when I'm wrong, but when that happens, I'm sincerely wrong. Since this is a KZitem comments section where we can't hear each other's tone of voice, I have to specify that that is an attempt at levity. “The Apostolic structure/the recognized presence and acknowledged authority of bishops in the Early Church is not some obscure or ambiguous detail of history (as we can see in the words of someone like St. Ignatius, which is about as early of a post-apostolic source we can get, having been discipled by the Apostles directly).” Ignatius, I would argue, supports my point. It's clear that Ignatius was arguing for the monarchical authority of the bishops, and implies that others were making It's a shame really, that so many ancient documents have been lost to time. Some historians speculate that we only have about 10% of all the ancient documents that have every existed. This is a tangent, of course, but having more documentation would help us to make these kinds of arguments.
@tlucas7031
9 ай бұрын
@@orthodox_soul “The clerical office, which is there in Scripture, was present from the earliest centuries onward, and it was they who administered the Sacraments.” I don't think this is supported by historical sources. This is another example of later doctrines leading to eisegesis. Reading the Early Fathers, its easy to assume that they meant the same things when they used terms like presbyter, bishop, and Eucharist, but, as I said before, that's a problem of interpretations of later Christians teaching concepts that were foreign to the earliest Christians. “Presbyter” in Greek meant, literally, elder, and that's consistent with the Didache's portrayal of the early church being loose knit communities lead by mature, older Christians. Calling the elders “priests,” and the sacramental implications of this "To try to cite "loose organization and poorly defined hierarchies" as evidence against Orthodoxy during a time in which the Church was 1) in Her infancy and 2) heavily persecuted is negligible at best and overtly fallacious at worst. We may as well cite the failure to coin the term "Trinity" sooner than it did as evidence that the Church "looks nothing like Orthodoxy". The difference is that what the Scriptures and the early Church taught about the Trinity is roughly the same as what you and I believe about the Trinity. “The Church becoming more refined in terms of Church administration, or more precise in its terminology as previously Revealed theology was expounded upon by later generations, or having certain liturgical practices receive more structure and become more normative as the Church expanded and became less persecuted is not the same context of "change" as the one you're implying.” It matters because it gets at the heart of, as mentioned earlier, what constitutes “life of the Church that actually produced the Scripture.” It's not just the church becoming more refined, its practice and ecclesiology changing what it means to live a Christian life. "Do you hold that anything done in the past becomes an indisputable Christian practice, or is there room for reform?" For us, if certain matters have been settled in the Church, then they have been settled for all of us, for good. I don't have the authority to remove books from the canon like the Reformers did, or to unilaterally restructure ecclesiology, or to redefine Baptism, or any other issue which Protestants quickly began fragmenting over. “Removing books from the canon like the Reformers did,” I'm assuming that's in reference to the OT Apocrypha? That was purely due to the Reformers translating from the Masoretic text rather than the Septuagint. For what its worth, most Protestants held those books in high regard, even if they're not regarded as a part of the canon (Luther, I think, suggested all Christians read them. Some Anabaptists read from sections of them during weddings, actually). But that's just trivia. I believe you when you say that you don't believe that you have the authority to redefine ecclesiology or doctrine, but I think its a mischaracterization to imply that I believe that I do. If anything, I believe in even less authority to change those things, because I don't recognize the post-Niceaen changes that were made in those areas either. “To think that reform would be needed presupposes that the Orthodox Church is plagued by the same kind of theological errors as in the Roman Catholic Church or in Protestantism, which is not the case. We have unity in beliefs and practices, continuity with the praxis of ancient times, and purity of doctrine. There is no need to reform the Church, the Church is supposed to reform us.” Again, I don't think this claim of continuity is backed by ancient document, as I've already stated. I also think this is inconsistent with your above point about Arianism. If I grant you your point that the majority of bishops were Arians, then that alone shows the possibility of the need for reform. Point being, how do you know that you aren't the Arians here? Sorry I had to add this in parts. KZitem wouldn't let me put the whole thing at once.
@N1IA-4
5 ай бұрын
I'm in the process of finishing RCIA, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Having been a Protestant of all different stripes for 30 years, a Bible school graduate, and a former Baptist Pastor, I finally see how Protestantism is illogical and epistemologically untenable. Great job on this video.
@cfroi08
9 ай бұрын
Americanism can be described as the unholy union between Enlightenment philosophy (man is born good) and Protestantism (man is born with the correct assumption of Christianity).
@randomdad1234
10 ай бұрын
Not gonna lie, when you said the line “For a thousand years. . .” my mind immediately inserted “I've only been thinking of keeping this hair silky, getting my hook and being awesome again.” Forgive me my brothers and sisters 😞☦️
@EgonCholakian69
7 ай бұрын
I love the way you relate these topics. Please continue posting these videos. I've sent a lot of them to my protestant friends and family.
@WWCC35
4 ай бұрын
I am being baptized on Holy Saturday. My family is not antagonistic to my conversion, and even complimentary of Orthodoxy, however they will not abandon their Protestant Mega Church. Polemics don't work with them as they respond with great anger. Do you have a recommendation of wrote prayers for the conversion of heterodox family members?
@johnnyd2383
4 ай бұрын
Not sure about the prayers tho... but when it comes to your family members, show them by your example as to what true Christianity is. Since Orthodoxy is not religion, but way of life, in your home you will plenty of opportunities to show them your shining. May God help you in that quest of yours...
@bottomoftherabbithole
4 ай бұрын
Just about every night we as a family go through a long list of names at some point during in our prayers that God would grant them grace unto repentance, conversion, salvation and union with His Holy Orthodox Church. It is insane how many people on that list have converted over the past 5 or 6 years. Just be diligent and sincere. The Lord is mercifully attentive to our supplications that are in accordance with His will!
@coolcatbaron
9 ай бұрын
the music choice convinced me on its own
@lindaphillips4646
5 ай бұрын
☦💝📿💝☦ and thank you for the beautiful psalm from Rachmaninoff's All-Night Vigil.
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
☦☦☦EXCELLENT! Rare to find this approach to the issue.. which is actually what all of us former prtstnts probably all went through in less formal ways to realize what the prtsnt faith is lacking. I only recently heard someone say what you did around 24:00 that the prtsnt faith has no way to speak definitively on anything..They may point to things they see as evil but there is no church that can speak to it. (My words fail here, but i will have them.)
@MarkAtherton-bf4pq
11 ай бұрын
The words and actions of the last couple popes (particularly the current pope) make it very very very hard for me to believe that the Roman Catholic church is the source of holiness and truth. But everything else you said was very compelling. Thank you!
@orthodox_soul
11 ай бұрын
Paul isn't suggesting that the RCC is a source of truth, but rather, when he says that Roman Catholicism is (perceivably) tenable compared to Protestantism, what he means is that because of the way it **presents** itself makes it tenable as a paradigm, since they at least posit some kind of authoritative mechanism external to oneself by which we can delineate doctrine and by which the consciences of the faithful can be authoritatively bound to those decisions. Protestantism, by contrast, fails to even posit any such mechanism, so it's excluded even from the possibility of being tenable as a system. That's the comparison Paul was making, in essence. In other words it's the difference between saying, "X is valid" vs "X has the possibility of being valid". It can be tricky recognizing the distinction, but it's a big one.
@bottomoftherabbithole
11 ай бұрын
@@orthodox_soulprecisely, thank you 🙏☦️
@MarkAtherton-bf4pq
10 ай бұрын
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it very much. I"m exploring orthodoxy right now and trying to understand the differences.@@orthodox_soul
@orthodox_soul
10 ай бұрын
@@MarkAtherton-bf4pq my pleasure brother. You're definitely in the right realm watching content like this. It can be a long journey and a potentially difficult process (depending on the background you're converting from) but I'm certain you'll come to find that pursuing Holy Orthodoxy was the best decision you ever made!
@SaltShack
9 ай бұрын
“The best place to learn about Orthodoxy is in an Orthodox Church”, Fr. Josiah Trenham. And he’s right everything we believe is said and sung in Church. No 849 page “summary of belief” like the Roman Catholic Catechism, no Statement of Faith like Westminster , or Book like Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion. Just Scripture and the Wisdom of the Apostles, Apostolic Fathers, Church Fathers Saints and Martyrs. All are welcome regardless of the Nation displayed on the sign out front, Greek, Antiochan, Russian, Serbian, OCA and even Oriental. Inside each you’ll be introduced to the Ancient Faith, Tradition and Ritual of the men who walked with Christ and the men who walked with them. The Hymns may have differing melodies but each offers the True and Correct Sacrament and because it’s the Only Church that is as the Bible commands when the Church last was of one mind and judgement you can be confident that you will be free from heresy. May God Grant You many years!
@user-qn6jy3qc5u
5 ай бұрын
Great video. One critique: you should have set the equation to X (times) Y instead of X (plus) Y. That would make the math consistent with your point at around 18:00 where you state that it only takes the lack of one of those necessary criteria to invalidate the system, since anything times zero is zero
@bottomoftherabbithole
5 ай бұрын
Glory to God! And wow actually you're right that's a great catch, thank you! Will remember for future conversations 😄
@Seaker35
10 ай бұрын
thats what i think to, how does it make sence that for 1460-1470 years the church was wrong and luther knew more than all the early fathers. i like your way of reasoning and video construction its refreshing
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God! I am so happy you found it worth your time and hopefully spiritually edifying! I appreciate your feedback 🙏☦
@chryssanthivl.7641
11 ай бұрын
Well done Reader Paul! We love you all!!! Your work is priceless!
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
Glory to God! Missed you guys this weekend; praying for you all☦
@mannytorrez2138
10 ай бұрын
This is deep make another more longer please 🤓 never heard this kind of teaching deep
@kiwi-xl1vl
8 күн бұрын
Thank you Bro.. That's a great video
@hglundahl
10 ай бұрын
16:06 _underground true Christians_ oxymoron. An underground church is not teaching the nations, nor like a lamp set on a candlestick rather than under a bushel, not baptising the nations a not like a city posed on a hill (a k a rock, kepha, petra ...).
@TheMhouk2
8 ай бұрын
This is extremely succinct and quality content, with a good amount of depth - appreciate this.
@exposingpowerfullieslivest5082
11 ай бұрын
☦️☦️☦️(next video idea: a discussion with my Godson😉)
@bottomoftherabbithole
11 ай бұрын
Haha 100%!! Let's finally get it scheduled this week. Looking very forward to it my brother🙏❤️🔥☦️
@exposingpowerfullieslivest5082
11 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbitholeawesome! Let's do it! May it be to the Glory of God☦️☦️☦️
@AustimosPrime
11 ай бұрын
As to be expected, another banger from Reader Paul.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
haha stoppp I CAN'T TAKE THE PRESSURE 😄😂 Glory to God my brother in Christ; pray for me, a sinner
@orthochristos
8 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and your family. May God bless you.
@juliemathews5115
6 ай бұрын
Christmas is a pagan holiday
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
@@juliemathews5115the appropriate Orthodox word is Nativity. Maybe that helps. Although in this culture, both words are used.
@orthodoxwitness2374
10 ай бұрын
Luther's 6th lesser-known sola: sola ME
@ReneCharisma
5 ай бұрын
The quotes in the end of the video 👍🏻🔥☦️💜
@Aleksandr-Herman
5 ай бұрын
Paul, I liked this video of yours so much, that I decided that I have to have it written down, so that I can read it carefully and memorize the key points. I copied the transcript of your video, and while I was formatting the text(because the transcript is just a plane text, ... no punctuation, no question marks, no exclamation marks), I realized one interesting thing , namely, there's no possible way to figure out what the author actually meant, by just reading the text which has no punctuation marks. And, as we all know, no Hebrew, nor Greek texts have punctuation masks. Moreover, the text is not divided into chapters, verses, etc. The only way to know the actual meaning of the text is by hearing the author speak. Thus, there's no possible way to know the true apostolic teaching, if we have just the written text and no oral tradition that had to be kept unchanged. The oral tradition, which is the holy tradition of the Church, is the only key to understand the scriptures. It's not just a convenient claim of the Orthodox Church, it's the fact! P. S. Paul, I will be translating the transcript of your speech in Russian. I would like to share it with my Russian protestant (and Orthodox) friends. Would you give me permission to do that? Thank you.
@bottomoftherabbithole
5 ай бұрын
Glory to God! Excellent addendum. Of course you can use this material/video in whatever way you feel may profit souls. That's a standing invitation to anyone and everyone. The whole reason I'm ultimately doing this work is to reach people and help them embrace the Holy Orthodox faith! May it be blessed🙏☦️
@Aleksandr-Herman
5 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbithole If I manage to make a decent voiceover, I'll upload it to my channel. Is this ok with you?
@bottomoftherabbithole
5 ай бұрын
@@Aleksandr-Herman absolutely! If you could simply throw a link to my channel in the video description that would be appreciated!
@Aleksandr-Herman
5 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbithole will definitely do. Thank you.
@aliyamathiesen7290
11 ай бұрын
Legendary.
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
haha I don't know about all that 😂but I pray it reaches those it's supposed to reach at the moment that their prepared to receive its contents! Glory to God and please pray for me, a sinner!
@bottomoftherabbithole
10 ай бұрын
btw you guys literally have such a based priest lol. I just added him on fbook! So, so happy for you all to have found a solid spiritual home 🙏❤☦
@aliyamathiesen7290
10 ай бұрын
@@bottomoftherabbitholeyessss, he is the actual best! Couldn’t be a better fit for us!
@publius5128
6 ай бұрын
This might be a good explanation for why - at a base level - every church I've seen that has a "pride" flag outside of it has been a Protestant denomination...
@protestanttoorthodox3625
5 ай бұрын
Glory to God ☦️❤️
@user-ox9rg9is3r
6 ай бұрын
Totally convicted in a joyous hilarity over the craziness of my protestant faith 😂😂😂😢😢😢😅😅😅❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉
@TravelingBabyCompany
9 ай бұрын
Just recently found you! Love these please continue!!
@Southlander1000
5 ай бұрын
When it comes to Scripture and claims based on Sola Scriptura, I like to say this, "Scripture is like a terrorist: if you torture it enough, it will confess anything you want it to." This is why we have 20-40,000 Protestant denominations (depending on how one defines that word). One absolutely must have an objective standard for knowing what is Scripture and how it is to be understood. I dearly love my Protestant friends and family members, but I cannot accept their paradigm any more than I can accept the paragigm of my Mormon family. It simply doesn't work.
@sezcerjan4431
Ай бұрын
"Scripture is like a terrorist.." 😂such a true statement and clever saying!
@michaelalexander3001
5 ай бұрын
Glory to God!
@lindaphillips4646
6 ай бұрын
☦Bless you. I understand something of your background. Your growing up in the church of Christ was different from mine. It sounds like you are in contact with both churches. (I am glad to see your hesitation about rome. You will understand more as you go along. Much in terms of the 'mind' of the churches is different. So glad for you. My husband and i were received into an OCA church. We had first experienced the Orthodox Church in Russia, and liked the tie which our OCA church had/has with Russian immigrants. I won't presume to suggest which church might be better for you. You will decide which one will be able to provide the depth of help that you would like. You won't be tied to it if you decide to go somewhere else. Rdr. Paul's church is a ROCOR parish. (My only unsolicited advice is to receive an Orthodox baptism, even if you have been baptized before. But your priest will have the final say.. I don't want to open any issues yet.. just saying this..) I am sure that Rdr. Paul may have some ideas for you..☦💝📿💝☦
@bad_covfefe
9 ай бұрын
The Protestant epistemology stems from western scholastic epistemology, which hinges on the assumption that formal logic and personal judgment can be used to find *certain* truth. In terms of authority, how does your own personal judgment/intuition rank? For the Orthodox (or anyone else who understands that there are experts that we should trust even if we find what they say implausible) the answer is "not very high." For the Roman Catholics, the answer is "not super high, but it's not at the bottom." For the Protestant, though they do not realize it because they have not even considered that their own intuition and judgement is fallible, the answer is "very high." This isn't just a Protestant thing, either. It's an American thing. Baron von Steuben, a Prussian officer who helped George Washington train the Revolutionary War soldiers at Valley Forge once remarked that in Europe, you tell a soldier what to do, and he does it. But in America, he finds he has to tell a soldier WHY he should do something, and then he does it. Skepticism and "no submission unless I agree with you" is built into the fabric of the American psyche. It applies in the secular realm, too. I recently completed an assignment where I had to summarize and share my opinion of the views of a Civil War historian. This historian is a renowned expert on the Reconstruction era and slavery. I shared that one of his statements seemed questionable to me, but that I would defer to his judgment because he doubtless knows more than I do on the topic. I was told that I should not do that, because this guy doesn't know everything. Okay, he might not know everything, but that shouldn't matter unless you are suggesting that my judgment is infallible, and therefore that I should not trust anyone unless I confirm myself. The truth, of course, is that while this expert is fallible, SO AM I, and so he still has a better chance of being correct than I do. This is also the reason why Protestants, with this scholastic epistemology, MUST have an infallible canon of scripture: The only time they can actually TRUST something or submit to any higher authority is if that authority is infallible. Otherwise, they must default to their own understanding. It does not occur to them that their own judgment is still fallible and not a sure indicator of truth, OR that there is a difference between "what seems true to me" and "what is true." Hence, what seems true in scripture to them therefore must be true.
@TheBasicExpert
8 ай бұрын
I have been wrestling with this for a while. I'm glad I found this video.
@andrewharvest2528
10 ай бұрын
Glory forever
@pacey4198
9 ай бұрын
This is truly digging at my conscience. I grew up LCMS Lutheran but this video is really making me question why our institution is not inline with how the church was in the early times. My only questions would be: How much has the Orthodox Church changed since the time of the apostles if at all? And also, how am I to know it has been corrupted or not, like how the Papacy was with their indulgences and burning of people? I’m terribly uneducated on the history of the Orthodox Chruch.
@orthodox_soul
9 ай бұрын
Those are good questions to be asking. But not only are the questions themselves pertinent, I also mean that it's a great sign of potential growth that you're even willing to ask the question at all and to admit a certain level of historic ignorance (as was the case with me as well, not too long ago). I commend you for that! Firstly, there is a distinction that must be made where the notion of "change" is concerned, which is important to understand because people get hung up on this by equivocating terms. What someone means by "change" is critical. In the sense of becoming more refined in terms of Church administration, more precise as previously Revealed theology was expounded upon by later generations, expanding to encompass different nations where it absorbed the flavors of those cultures and certain practices became more normative as the Church became less persecuted, then sure, we can say Orthodoxy has "changed" in that way. But in the sense that all of the core elements of Holy Tradition that **made** the Early Church substantively Orthodox are still present to this day--that it was fundamentally "One" Church in mind and spirit; that it practiced the transmission of canonical authority via Apostolic Succession; that it had Councils guided by the Holy Spirit and functioned as such that dogmas were established on a conciliar basis; that it possessed the Sacraments and taught the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist; that it engaged in liturgical worship and venerated saints, etc--then in this way, the Orthodox Church has not changed. The mistake people make is in conflating the former with the latter, because they fail to recognize the distinction that "change" implies in one sense versus the other. All of these fundamentals of the faith are contained in the ancient literature of our saints, both *during* the time of the Apostles and immediately following the post-apostolic era. We still observe these beliefs and practices now. In that way, Orthodoxy possess a continuity with the Early Church that doesn't exist anywhere else--because it's the same Church, and there has only ever been One. - - - - - On the issue of how to discern corruption, there is another distinction to be made--namely, between moral corruption and theological corruption. With all due respect to Roman Catholics, we Orthodox would contend that the papacy, having long since departed from the One, True Church, is guilty of both on a number of counts (I'll forgo the specifics). However, the ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church is a decentralized system. So, even if/when one or more of our bishops falls into moral scandal or theological error, the Church at large remains insulated from such corruption because our entire faith does not rest on the moral and theological purity of one supreme guy who is supposed to be infallible. Where problems arise, the Church has a built-in defense mechanism to deal with heretics or unrepentant sinners--either by excommunication or some other means of disciplinary action--and can thus preserve Her purity in this way by protecting the rest of the Body from being infected ("...if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.") I say this because, there may come times when you DO, in fact, recognize some scandal or false teaching being espoused by some hierarch in the Orthodox Church--we don't view individual bishops as having supremacy or infallibility--and I wouldn't want you to get the wrong idea that, because you've perceived some level of localized corruption, that *therefore* Orthodoxy must not be true. Instead of treading the waters of corruption, try digging into those deeper questions you have and addressing some of the suspicions that are starting to gnaw at you, because the Truth of Holy Orthodoxy is not contingent on any of those tertiary issues. The more you choose to explore, the more questions you'll end up wanting an answer to, which I think you'll quickly come to realize that only Orthodoxy can provide satisfactory answers to. Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope that was helpful. I'd always be happy to talk more, if you're ever interested. May the Lord continue to bless and guide you on your journey. ☦
@pacey4198
8 ай бұрын
@@orthodox_soul Thank you.
@Yallquietendown
10 ай бұрын
And we have a great need of scripture but also the revelation of God to the prophet is the basis of the recorded word of this revelation. In orthodoxy we still have prophecy today in Protestantism it has stopped. We still have people who are made fit by cooperation with God to receive the revelation of God via purification illumination and theosis
Пікірлер: 694