Dave, Jaime (@latheofheaven) and I have nerded out to an embarrassing degree the last few days on his channel. He's been incredibly helpful. I've also had some informative exchanges with Jerry at iSonic. But I still don't get (and won't let myself buy one of these ultrasonic RCMs until I do) the conondrum of the cavitation frequencies (kHz). It's counterintuitive and esoteric enough to have me basically mystified one way or the other. My intuition says that the greater the power, the higher the frequency, the more powerful the cavitation implosion, the better the surface cleaning. But I don't think it's that simple. Some of the manufacturers cavitate at 35-45 kHz (eg, iSonic), while others (including the Degritter and KLaudio) cavitate 120-135 kHz. Steve at PVF cavitates at 135 and 220 kHz!!! I'm lost. So, I have a little song request for you called "kilohertz." If you care about this as much as I would assume you might, any chance you'll consider doing a little deep dive on this subject, using your highly analytical sensibility, willingness to test using the sicentific method, and extreme penchant for detail, as an annex to your video series? I also get that possibly no one other than me cares about this as, frankly, very few consumers seem to be asking about cavitation kHz in these machines. So I totally respect if this is too niche and obscure. I know your content needs to appeal to more than one member of your audeince. But I've seen you go into the molecular weeds before - probably why we love you! - and I think you may need to do it again. Happy to help any way I can. All best and thanks! Austin
@DaveDenyer
6 сағат бұрын
Hi Austin, I’m due to record another video with Steve Evans this coming week (for posting in two-three weeks time). I shall try and prise as much information out of him as I can. In the meantime I’ll put the Humminguru’d Muse LP through the Degritter a few more times. To be honest I’m not certain anyone knows the absolute truth about this subject but I’ll do my best to unravel it. I ought to add: what I’m in pursuit of is THE BEST method. Even basic machines like the Himminguru, Project, etc., will benefit your record listening pleasure. I don’t mean to insinuate that everything I don’t do is bad.
@austinhunt4260
5 сағат бұрын
@@DaveDenyer I really look forward to it. I'd like to know what components Steve uses to build his machines. As far as I can see, his are the only RCMs that cavitate above 200 kHz. I'd like to understand what went into his decision to design it that way and the science on which he bases it. He's certainly a leading authority on ultrasonic RCMs - more than most because he actually BUILT his systems. Thank you, Dave!
@HartAudio
Күн бұрын
Ultrasonic record cleaners damage vinyl by stripping out the high frequencies in the groove which contains 20,000 cycles per second in the waveform which is the height of deviations in the groove. So very delicate. Brutal implosions/cavitation inside the groove are very destructive. Do your research before pulling the trigger on one of these machines. Spatula City Records explains the dangers and how to avoid them in his KZitem video. The best specifically designed manual dry/wet brush using the stylus to massage the debris out and brushing before and after play is what Linn and many top manufacturers suggest as the quickest, easiest, safest, and most effective solution to dirt-related noise.
@DaveDenyer
Күн бұрын
Interesting, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
@RillenReiner
4 күн бұрын
Thank you for the update on your process. I will test your record cleaning solution in my Degritter. Also will give the Art du Son a go for records with too much surface noise.
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
Thanks for the feedback Best of luck!
@crazyprayingmantis5596
4 күн бұрын
Watching this makes me want to sell all my vinyl 😂 It doesn't need to be this difficult, this is bordering on obsessive
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
Part of the reason I’m doing this, so you don’t have to. 😊
@SimonC-z8y
3 күн бұрын
The Pro-Ject went kaput. I have since found that 2 cycles with degritter cleaning fluid plus 2 cycles with plain water works very well on everything in the Degritter 2. Both in terms of surface noise reduction and sound quality optimisation. Stubborn noise may require a repeat with a few discs.
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
Thanks for the info Simon.
@ordersredrawwear
4 күн бұрын
Hi Dave, great video.. in my own way and on my budget im kind of getting to where you are. I start with Knosti to get most of the bigger stuff off the vinyl and then vac dry. Then put into ultrasonic tank and then vac dry and then do a final rinse and vac dry. One question for you or anyone else watching - do you ever get labels wet when using the Knosti and if so do you have a solution to it? Many thanks Ross
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
Hi Ross, glad you liked the video. I only use the knosti drying rack these days (and brilliant it is. Just discovered you can get it as a spare part). I can’t remember whether wet labels was an issue for me - hope someone else can help. Cheers.
@revelry1969
Күн бұрын
I got a nova on the way to use in conjunction with my kirmuss. Kirmuss for deep work and humminguru for rinse. This is the theory. 🤓. You said you tried the kirmuss but don’t recall you talking about it in detail. I have found it to be very effective for me. The only issue is the water is not filtered. Which he would design an attachment for filtering
@DaveDenyer
Күн бұрын
It was several years ago that I tried the Kirmuss, and it was at a friend’s so limited experience… It was undoubtedly effective though, and ensured I would investigate ultrasonics further…
@revelry1969
20 сағат бұрын
@@DaveDenyer cool! Thanks. I have found it to really open my disks up. Maybe retry it again especially with your latest experiences. 👍🏻. It is more manual labor but it sounds like you are already doing that 😀
@latheofheaven
4 күн бұрын
'... because I don't have that much money'... says the fellow with the $100,000+ stereo system 😁 I figured that heavy box was going to cost you more than 30-40 quid. Yep... I'm pretty much with you overall in principle. That's why if you noticed in my Soundroom System & Collection folder I have a little box with about 5 or 6 different solutions in different spray bottles, the primary one I normally use first being basically almost the same as what you use for your chemistry in your ultrasonic (also similar to what the London Jazz Collection uses with a strong IPA + surfactants, etc) The others are the excellent L'art Du Son, Audio Intelligence #15, and a detergent based one I can't remember at the moment. So, that gives me multiple choices depending if perhaps a record needs more than one approach. And YES! The rinse is of utmost importance. My philosophy is that no matter how aggressive your cleaning solution needs to be, as long as you give it a proper, thorough rinse then then you are fine. When I am doing a vacuum/rinse cleaning, I *ALWAYS* use Laboratory Regrade Purified Water #2 in the final rinse. I also use a 20 minute ultrasonic cycle, but also including full control over the temperature and rotation speed. Many of these commercial ultrasonic machines spin too rapidly (this is all shown in the extensive research papers written by the real experts linked in my videos who kindly corresponded with me and helped me) as well as of course controlling the chemistry. The only difference being, as you have likely already noticed when you kindly took the time to look at my very primitive 4 part KZitem video series on the ultrasonic RCM that I made and how I use it, is the fact that I am using basically the same iSonic tank that Kirmuss uses and with a custom made spindle I am able to clean 6 records at a time, properly spaced, instead of the VERY limited 1 ONLY all these commercial ones force you to do. And also, again, controlling the rotation speed, slowing it down using a 3 volt adapter instead of the 12 volt one that came with the motor, resulting in about .6 RPM. Oh, and the custom 2-Step filtration system shown in Part 4 of my series which runs the solution in the tank through a 1 micron filter and then immediately through a .35 micron filter before returning to the tank.
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
I remember your videos. I guess space is what prevents me from going along the same lines as you, and PVF. I guess I’ve been approaching it from the perspective of buying one neat and tidy machine. Ultrasonic made that two machines. I’ll have to think about doing something like you. Thanks for sharing your approach.
@latheofheaven
3 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer Well, at the time since I knew I was going to have to go through my 2600+ albums, I found the thought of doing 6 at a time VERY appealing... 😁
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
@@latheofheaven indeed: 6 at once is another highly appealing aspect…
@latheofheaven
3 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer Yep... I like to take care of my records like I take care of my women... (🤣 Sorry, couldn't resist...)
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
@@latheofheaven😂
@AndreasBajohra
Күн бұрын
Great series of videos. How often to you change the solution / distilled water in your tanks? I used to make about 1900ml at a time and change after 25 cycles. But it soon adds up. Currently trying 50 records per (re-topped up) tank.
@DaveDenyer
Күн бұрын
Hi Andreas, I usually change the solutions in the Degritter after approximately 50-100 cycles. Bear in mind I'm doing at least two cycles per fluid per LP, so reckon on around 30 to 40 LPs per fluid change. In addition the records are all pre-cleaned before going into the Degritter so quite honestly, the cleaning solution in the Degritter is not being made very dirty at all. If I see any visible residue whatsoever ever (usually tiny water marks in the run out area), that's when I'll change fluid.
@AndreasBajohra
Күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyerthanks for the reply. I am trying to be a little more economical with time and expense, I run new records on one cycle on the Degritter. And used or dirty ones on the OkkiNokki first, using either Puregroove or the used solution from the Degritter followed by a rinse in DW. I am mined to add a little Ilfotol to the OkkiNokki rinse. Thoughts? What benefit do you think a second cycle would give me? Guess I should just try… Are you minded to investigate deionised water vs DW? Would be quite a saving. re the alcohol: besides cost and flashpoint: is there any concencus on which (ethanol vs isopropyl) would be better for sound? I think vinylforever had a preference for one? Based on a perceived harshness? Many thanks
@johns126
2 күн бұрын
Hi Dave - I have a Project Vac Cleaner. Can you confirm again why you are suggesting a rinsing cycle with just water after using the cleaning product. Thx
@DaveDenyer
2 күн бұрын
Hi John, The reasoning is that the vacuum won't get every last bit of the fluid (and dissolved muck) off of the record, hence having completed the normal wash / dry cycle on the Project, give it another cycle but just using pure distilled water. It's essentially the same theory as when you do your laundry: you wouldn't want to wash and spin dry the clothes without a rinse cycle.
@johns126
Күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer thanks Dave - makes sense, thanks for taking the time to elaborate 👍
@chrisberry8218
16 сағат бұрын
Hi Dave, very interesting video on record cleaning. Must admit I have a Pro-Ject Vaccum cleaner, and I've never rinsed either. Some of the products you've mentioned in your video. Would they be useful with the Pro-ject cleaner. If so could you list them for me. I collect 12'' Singles and some are very grubby. Cheers Dave, Looking forward to Fragile and Close To The Edge on Atlantic 45 series. Don't know if you know of a release date.
@DaveDenyer
6 сағат бұрын
Hi Chris, certainly the solutions I use would work with the Project. My favourites are Clearaudio Pure Groove snd L’Art du Son. The latter is a biological liquid and benefits from being left on the LP for a few minutes to do its stuff. I must admit I didn’t used to bother rinsing, until a few years ago, but you should hear the improvement of a thorough rinse. Sorry, no idea when we’ll get the Yes.
@tobbebonzo
4 күн бұрын
Interesting video! Have you considered the flame point of the amount of ethanol your using in the wash stage for the Degritter? Degritter themselves advise against using any form of alcohol in the cleaning solution because of the low flame point and the high temperature of the ultrasonic. I use ethanol as well but only as much as 3 milliliters in one tank of 1,5 liter distilled water. That’s only about 0,2%.
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
I have been very cautious about the flash point of ethanol. I’m probably going to revert to using isopropyl.
@jabensergei
4 күн бұрын
In what degree you would described the quality of sound when you just use your vacuum machine and when you use both, vacuum and ultrasonic. Reffering more to a new records. And do you have records that still keep their issues after you clean them using your full circle? Personally, I use wet cleaning only with natural air dry. Its like you said, better some cleaning than nothing at all. Thinking of vacuum machine, but as time goes, more ultrasonic options coming. For example by you mentioned spin cleaning Knosti released their own ultrasonic machine and makes me wonder what differences are their compared to Degritter, which cost almost 3x more. As always, great fun. Thanks Dave!
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
There’s no doubt that ultrasonic cleaning can give an already cleaned lp a clearly audible improvement. If you know anyone with an ultrasonic machine I’d suggest take along a record you’ve already cleaned and give it a try. How much improvement you hear may help decide whether & how much you invest in a machine.
@jedi-mic
4 күн бұрын
Why distilled water not deionized water it is pure than distilled water well distilled has small deposits of mineral in it and I would microwave for a minute your water when after you've opened it, because bacteria loves water. Alcohol will kill the bacteria but you need quite a bit over 70% to kill bacteria so heating is the best process. Try the deionized water. After the washing you can try and spray your records with an ultra thin silicone oil you want 0.65 cSt oil go over with a sponge you don't have to go mad a light spray but even the sponge will even it out spray from a distance say 2ft so you get an even coverage.
@RillenReiner
4 күн бұрын
Spraying records with ultrathin silicone oil? Never heard of this. Could you provide some more background where to learn more about the reasoning behind this?
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
Interesting… as far as I’m aware the distilled water I buy is lab grade pure. I’ll look into deionized water. I think here in UK it’s cheaper! Regarding the oil. I have tried, very many years ago, using oil, squallen oil, I don’t think you can buy it anymore. Anyway, whatever benefit it may have given I decided against it, then spent a very long time cleaning my stylus, cantilever and those records I’d treated.
@jedi-mic
2 күн бұрын
@@RillenReiner hi it's a known fact that on 78 shellac to use a mineral oil like WD-40, it dramatically cuts down surface noise and protects the record. But it's not suitable for vinyl because the oil is too thick so you need something ultra thin for 33s and 45s the viscosity on the Silicon oil is very low if you get a low viscosity as I pointed out, and it does the same thing as what you would for 78s. I don't know if anybody else has done it I haven't looked around I just did it myself. Actually it will nourish your cartridge cantilever as well the silicone oil it's very good for the rubber so don't worry about getting it on there but it's such a fine coating you're very unlikely to get any on there anyway. With vinyl you have a similar thing to Jitter in digital where the styli starts to jump because of the tight Groove so u get a motion backwards and forwards the oil prevents this and keeps the styli on track through every nook and cranny. A record microscopically is not smooth and that's not necessarily the grooves the actual vinyl plastic pellets do have a pitennes to them, that's why you find some records from different vinyl manufacturers mainly Japan is one of them that use a very fine vinyl process and heating it in pressing. and that might have been true for the old Deco records up to the early 60s what's highly sought after for the sound quality.
@davepounds8924
4 күн бұрын
Wow! You’re cleaning system is very thorough but also very expensive for the average vinyl lover to buy All those expensive machines and cleaning liquids can add up to a small fortune I’ve been using a 500 dollar Hummiguru with distilled water and my records sound great Easy maintenance of the record is the best way to keep them sounding good
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
Hi Dave. I do appreciate I’m perhaps obsessive. But hey, music, records, the best sound is my passion. I try to express the core ideas so people can apply this according to their budget. A Disco Antistat is better than nothing…
@austinhunt4260
4 күн бұрын
Steve custom built PVF's "Ultradeep 2.0" machines, right? It's hard to imagine one of those costing more than the Degritter (at cost) and, if they're more effective, worth building ourselves, no? Most people would not be willing to go to the trouble of building one of these, but I might, and it's no threat to his business as he doesn't service overseas.
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
If I could build Steve’s lab at home I’d jump at the chance. I’d have thought it would a lot more than a Degritter, I’d have Steve’s lab over any consumer machine. I simply don’t the space. I don’t have the money either, but don’t have to worry about that because the space!
@austinhunt4260
3 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer I assume it costs Steve less than $4k to build one of his Ultradeep custom machines (obviously, I could be totally wrong). In my limited experience, individual components cost a lot less than a fully assembled, sleek-designed model with a marketing budget (such as any of the ultrasonics you've tested). I would much rather pay Steve $4k for his R&D production than these off-the-line models that have as many detractors as enthusiasts. From what I can infer from his interviews, Steve has followed the expensive, tedius, and time consuming scientific method to arrive at the Ultradeep 2.0. Your scientific sensibilities and his seem to meld on this.
@latheofheaven
3 күн бұрын
@@austinhunt4260 Hey Austin! I don't mean to be presumptuous, but if you are interested, please feel free to check out my 4 part video series here on KZitem (under my name here) where I built what I feel is a very effective ultrasonic RCM based upon a lot of research and talking to people like the guy who did the huge paper on 'Aqueous Record Cleaning'. It uses the same basic tank Kirmuss does where you can easily set it up to clean 6 records at a time, properly spaced about 1 1/2" apart for proper cavitation. The tank uses powerful, oversized transducers, and at least the version I have also has 3 heating elements built in. I explain how I put it together, what parts I used (it wasn't hard... believe me I'm no Handyman Guru!) and I share the research on the chemistry, revolution speed, duration, proper rinse, and a 2 step filtration system. I've cleaned probably close to 2000 of my 2600+ vinyl albums, with almost all of them coming out very clean and quiet. I also suggest some other solutions and vacuum/rinse methods. Part 1 is the initial machine I built. Part 2 shows the improvements I made on it. Part 3 is about using a simple rinse tank and the same 6 record spindle/motor for a good distilled rinse after going through the US tank. Part 4 is about the filtration system. I hope that helps... Cheers! Jaime.
@austinhunt4260
3 күн бұрын
@@latheofheaven Hi Jaime, that's not presumptuous at all! It's being a great neighbor. Thank you. Going to watch them now. Cheers!
@latheofheaven
3 күн бұрын
@@austinhunt4260 I hope there might be something there that will help. It is VERY primitive! I'm afraid I do not have anywhere NEAR the smooth aplomb and polish of our distinguished host here, but if you can bear the rough narrative, and if you wish, do check the research linked there because that is truly where I learned all this stuff from the people who actually know what they are doing. Personally, I just was not going to spend like $2000-$4000 on one of these commercial cleaners where they only do 1 record at a time, and you have no control over the temperature, chemistry, rotation speed, duration, and other things. So, for a LOT less I honestly think I now have something that I feel is far more effective. Cheers!
@77MovieFan
4 күн бұрын
did you get ALL bad pressing in the end silent or are there some , specially new ones from bad pressing manucatures that can´t be "cleaned", the damage is deeper so to say?
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
I have had some new albums with faults that can’t be cleaned away.
@77MovieFan
4 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer many of my new pressings are trash, only Analogue Productions are 99% perfect, MoFi less but mostly good too. Old pressing NM from good sellers mostly are perfect too but newer stuff from other pressing manufacturers mostly too much noise 😞
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
@@77MovieFan I do clean everything, new and used. Even AP, even UHQRs, Tone Poets, MOFI, everything.
@chrisberry8218
Сағат бұрын
Hi Dave, the self adhesive strips you can get for the Pro-ject cleaner. Do you know what they made from. Just trying to see if I could get a roll or sheets of it to cut to size myself. Might be cheaper
@DaveDenyer
Сағат бұрын
Hi Chris, I've not ever tried the Project but I'd imagine that the strips are similar to those used on Clearaudio's and VPIs (both of which I have tried), and are simply narrower versions of those on the two cleaning pads I use on the Loricraft. I've not found these available on a big sheet, but I'd bet it is available somewhere, certainly worth a look!
@chrisberry8218
Сағат бұрын
@@DaveDenyer I was wondering what fabric. I was thinking either microfibre or velvet
@DaveDenyer
Сағат бұрын
@@chrisberry8218 I've often heard them referred to as "microfibre strips".
@austinhunt4260
4 күн бұрын
Dave, I am probably target locked on eventually buying an ultrasonic cleaner. I can't decide which, though. I'm unclear on the ideal ultrasonic powering (kHz). Apparently, higher isn't necessaeily better. Have you come to a conclusion on this? Thanks!
@DaveDenyer
4 күн бұрын
Hi Austin, not totally conclusive, but if the Degritter is within budget, that’s what i’d get.
@austinhunt4260
4 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer Your Muse trials seem to suggest that there is a maximum number of cleaning cycles you can run a record through any ultrasonic cleaner before it starts to degrade the groove structure. Since they don't regenerate with a good night's rest, doesn't that mean that once you hit that threshold, even after a couple decades, the record will be ultimately damaged. Thoughts?
@austinhunt4260
4 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer Seems PVF uses "135 kHz cavitation" in its cleaning tank, while Degritter uses 120 kHz. I'd like to know more about these kHz differences.
@DaveDenyer
3 күн бұрын
@@austinhunt4260 to be honest I’ve not noticed any degradation whatsoever with the degritter. And regarding the Humminguru’d Muse lp. I haven’t given up on it. It intrigues me. Steve Evans PVF speculated whether it just needed MORE cleaning. That the HG had just aggressively, but unevenly moved the greases on the vinyl surface (in the grooves). I’m still going to try cleaning further to see if I can resurrect it. To see if this is true…
@austinhunt4260
3 күн бұрын
@@DaveDenyer That would be an astonishing result if the HG was just moving the crud around. That should probably be the end for that particular product line, if true.
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