This feels like listening to the song in "widescreen" compared to "full screen"
@Sengin31
7 ай бұрын
The ears are more sensitive to spatial cues from the higher frequencies, which were a large component of what was removed when compressing the samples to fit on the ROM. So that's a pretty good analogy!
@crimson-foxtwitch2581
4 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 some of the sample compression was due to the way the sound driver’s PCM handler was programmed. a quirk of the hardware is that it can’t copy data to the Z80 without stopping sample playback so you get these chunks of “no data playing”. This is why modern Genesis sound drivers only stop the playback for incredibly small durations at a time, usually one scanline at a time, many times per frame. Toy Story used this for its MOD player but nowadays the SGDK driver, MDSDRSV, and Echo drivers all do this trick some way or another: allows for much cleaner sample playback at higher sample rates.
@Sengin31
4 ай бұрын
@@crimson-foxtwitch2581 This is probably nitpicking at this point, but that won't cause compression but will cause distortion. Sonic 3&K used the SMPS driver which was used for a whole host of games at least as far back as Sonic 1 in 1991 (and probably earlier), so was probably a pretty old implementation. I believe this type of distortion was unique to that driver as you said, it would be possible to write a more complicated implementation in order to reduce the amount of 'down time' to when it wouldn't affect the output audio. I'll have to check out those drivers - I'm not really familiar with even SMPS let alone any others.
@crimson-foxtwitch2581
4 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 Deflemask Legacy’s sound driver for the Genesis has SMPS-esque distortion if the sample exceeds 64KB, but both of Furnace’s PCM sound drivers use the modern method with less distortion and no sample size limits. Furnace even has a mode to use *TWO* PCM channels, albeit at a lower mixing rate(resulting output is at 13750Hz)
@Sengin31
4 ай бұрын
@@crimson-foxtwitch2581 Neat! How can it switch? I am assuming it's controlled by the game code knowing which sample is supposed to be 2 channels instead of 1, as the chip itself wouldn't have a way to tell.
@BlixDaCat
2 ай бұрын
Well, that "imperfection" is what makes the song good, in my opinion
@Sengin31
2 ай бұрын
It does add some crunch and both lowers the pitch and doesn't lower the pitch! It's a pretty unique form of distortion, at least from what I've seen.
@kevinm.5951
8 ай бұрын
3:30 when I saw thus, my inner nerd felt validated because the drum samples in 3d blast are....not great lol Much worse than S3K and it seemed like nobody noticed or cared
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
I gotchu. Perhaps the samples needed to get even more compressed because of the 3D animation intro, which took up a ton of space on the cartridge? 3D Blast's main dev (the owner of the GameHut and CodingSecrets youtube channels) mentioned how hard he needed to work to get the intro to fit in the ROM.
@jennjennjenn61992
8 ай бұрын
what! sonic 3d blast ost is great and so are the drums
@kevinm.5951
8 ай бұрын
@@jennjennjenn61992 ost is good, but if you compare the drums from sonic 3 and 3d blast, the 3d blast drums noticeably sound worse
@jennjennjenn61992
8 ай бұрын
@@kevinm.5951 yeah that snare is a little boxy
@Sapatin
9 ай бұрын
The crispness of the non distorted drums are soooooooooo good, feels like I've just cleaned my ears and can hear the world clearly again
@jennjennjenn61992
8 ай бұрын
no
@sincere3238
7 ай бұрын
@@jennjennjenn61992why not?
@jennjennjenn61992
7 ай бұрын
@@sincere3238 those are just unaltered samples.. its the worst version of the drums
@shalpp
9 ай бұрын
Hot take - The shitty z80 driver gave the pcm some good crunch that the game sounds incomplete without
@Sengin31
9 ай бұрын
Hey man, nothing wrong with that opinion! It does add some crunch - it's a pretty unique form of distortion.
@smolbrendan5978
9 ай бұрын
this video is interesting to be fair, but i honestly can't imagine myself liking even a quarter of the songs from the soundtrack if they didn't have that signature crunch the S3 miniboss theme is my favourite and i can't even begin to imagine how much less i would like it, because that *_crunch_* is important to me
@Sengin31
9 ай бұрын
@@smolbrendan5978 I suppose it depends on the track. The "MJ" tracks tend to rely more on the percussion while the others tend to rely more on the FM synthesis/melodies. But really, the intent of this video was just to demonstrate the original samples - not to make a statement saying one is or should be preferred to the other.
@TorutheRedFox
8 ай бұрын
some sounds definitely sound better with the crunch, but others definitely could do without it
@ssg-eggunner
8 ай бұрын
So #retro
@Xeranxies
Жыл бұрын
Great work dude, you outdid yourself with this video. Well done! It's amazing how much better these songs sound with the raw drum samples. Also, cheers for the shoutout ✌😁
@Sengin31
Жыл бұрын
Thanks dude! I seriously don't think I would have been able to find the source samples without you.
@Xeranxies
Жыл бұрын
@@Sengin31 it's all good man, was good fun.
@famaki8072
7 ай бұрын
i do like how this isn't like one of those "restored" stuff where it sounds completely different and not so good in my opinion (Donkey Kong Country title screen for example)
@ocelot9496
Жыл бұрын
What a delightful recommendation for the algorithm to throw my way! Cool video! That's so fascinating that the devs would have heard the sound differently
@tech34756
8 ай бұрын
Imagine if they had implemented 'Mode 1' on Sonic 3 to allow for CDDA audio via the S/MCD.
@crimson-foxtwitch2581
4 ай бұрын
nah, wouldn’t happen, Sonic 3’s sample driver was just not written according to a proper understanding of the Genesis hardware. you can get much cleaner sample output than this with today’s sample drivers
@tech34756
4 ай бұрын
@crimson-foxtwitch2581 I'm not sure what you mean, I'm talking about just having the BGM be normal CD audio.
@crimson-foxtwitch2581
4 ай бұрын
@@tech34756 the Sega CD only really did okay in North America, everywhere else it didn’t exactly sell well. the entire addon’s premise was to compete with the PC Engine CD and take advantage of ooh shiny tech
@tech34756
4 ай бұрын
@@crimson-foxtwitch2581 I know, but that doesn't mean I can't imagine a scenario where it was utilised.
@MysticShiv3r
11 ай бұрын
This is absolutely mind blowing and I'm very glad this came up in my recommended. Me & a very good friend remade the S3&K Major Boss theme in FL Studio using the VST and Genny. I assume the DAC and other samples are not the original uncompressed quality? Don't get me wrong it sounds amazing and incredibly faithful to the OST. However, what you're describing and the links provided means it could be made even better?
@Sengin31
11 ай бұрын
I've only messed around with Genny for a few minutes a while ago, and didn't check any percussion, but in the absolute best case scenario (unlikely), is that it would output the stored samples in 'cartridge quality' (e.g. @1m19s in this video). I say this is unlikely because someone probably created the .vgm files (that you used as input to Genny) by recording the output of an emulator focused on being as perfect as possible at reproducing the genesis, including its flaws. So if you got your vgms from project2612.org/, they would be this way, and include the pauses. However, if you personally created your vgm by using ValleyBell's SMPSPlay (which emulates audio at a higher layer and thus can simulate a Z80 faster than it could run on the genesis), then you could most likely import THAT vgm into Genny and get the samples as they existed on the cartridge, without pauses. They'd still be trimmed and at a lower sample rate though. Here's a vgm created from SMPSPlay (boss theme from S3&K), try importing it into Genny: 1drv.ms/u/s!AuaJEDSykCcEgcE6dqfhFf0zzOcMtA?e=vqMIij But, "made even better" using my S3&K sample pack depends entirely on what you mean. It will be "better" in the sense that it is indeed better quality and is what the devs heard, but it will be less faithful to what you heard yourself from the TV when you played.
@ModReplay
9 күн бұрын
Nice video! While the sounds are definitely improved, its also quite impressive how well the developers approximated the Korg with limited hardware.
@GoldDragon20
8 ай бұрын
For some reason its more than hearing the difference, I could feel a difference. I guess the bass of the track hits different when everything is correct.
@jennjennjenn61992
8 ай бұрын
I'm sort of confused by the concept of this video, as well. it was always part of the process to distort these samples, so they most likely already knew what it was going to sound like and likely had no reason to listen to the original samples like that. plus, the samples were already processed when composing the music. this video makes sense if the title was "I found the original drum samples from Sonic 3&K"
@malachigv
8 ай бұрын
Yeah, and you can really tell with LRZ1 and VVZ2. Though I’m sure compromises has to be made, and lossy compression (because I know for a fact the DPCM that sonic games use fit non-SEGA chant PCM is incredibly lossy) and Z80 pausing issues made exact sample timings really hard to pinpoint, they were dealing with at least a rough estimation on what the hardware could handle, and it shows Now, Sonic 1 actually had a massive sample issue, its drums were given a higher pitch by the SEGA chant being added last minute. However, I don’t see many people arguing against the final version, Sonic 2 kept those sample pitches even though it didn’t need to, and from what I can tell, Sonic 3s samples simply never had that issue
@getbluespheres3k
Ай бұрын
its still very impressive either way, the genesis was great
@inkywright
11 ай бұрын
What's interesting is that I noticed the prototype had better sounding DAC samples. The Buxer tracks simply caused for further compression in order to make room for all of those vocal sounds and different drums.
@Sengin31
11 ай бұрын
Audio quality was also considered just not that important - graphics were the rage at the time and so as game dev got further along, the available space for audio got smaller and smaller. It's also possible that prototypes had different sound drivers that didn't cause the pausing?
@inkywright
11 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 It's plausible since the theory is that MJ didn't like how the music had to be compressed in order to make room for those insanely detailed graphics.
@TorutheRedFox
8 ай бұрын
the samples sound just like this when played using SMPSPlay, so it's definitely not caused by compression it's probably caused by the game just stopping the Z80 left, right and center (which also causes the rhythm to be slightly irregular)
@dakrashayashi2796
8 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 The prototypes have notable sound issues as a whole, so its possible it IS because of a different sound driver - either unfinished or different entirely.
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
@@TorutheRedFox The samples don't sound this good when using SMPSPlay, but they definitely sound a lot better than raw from the genesis. SMPSPlay shows the samples as they exist on the cartridge (no distortion due to the pauses), but they are still affected by how few bytes they had to store them (sample rate and sample length primarily being affected).
@aortaplatinum
8 ай бұрын
Damn, I never realized the instrument samples were compressed THAT much. I always believed the story about the audio quality of the Mega Drive being why MJ backed out as a composer, and this is just confirmation bias for me lol
@Useott
9 ай бұрын
I only *really* noticed the improvements in Lava Reef 1 and Volcano Valley 2
@RDJR400
3 күн бұрын
those restored hats are so familiar, where are they from?
@Sengin31
3 күн бұрын
It's one of the sampled hats that comes from Reason tweaked slightly for decay
@moriadannotmilk
9 ай бұрын
sounds like sonic 3 air's remastered music
@Solesteam
Жыл бұрын
Wow, it sounds so empty with the proper sound samples, clean, but empty.
@Sengin31
Жыл бұрын
Yeah the distortion going away is really noticeable. I think it adds quite a bit of energy in the lower midrange which goes away. However I don't think it sounds empty by itself - e.g. the kick is more easily picked out by ear because it's cleaner and the high frequencies are in tact (which are important for your ears distinguishing kick drums). But I can see how it sounds 'more empty' in a relative sense.
@Solesteam
Жыл бұрын
@@Sengin31 It's like having a cluttered room for years and you go and put everything in it's place and find the atmosphere uneasy for a bit...
@Sengin31
Жыл бұрын
@@Solesteam Yeah, good analogy! A large part of this is because the console output's drums have barely any high frequency content. So when they are suddenly brought in, a TON of frequency space is suddenly taken up. It would be like wearing noise cancelling headphones and only listening to lofi music for a while, then suddenly taking them off. The high frequency range is often described as "air" and "presence" and is jolting to go back and forth between having none and having a lot. That said, I do think there's probably a bit too much high as-is. I didn't do this for the video as I wanted to use the original samples, but I would probably roll off the highs overall, and also try and reduce the snare's especially, if I were attempting to produce/mix these.
@ssg-eggunner
8 ай бұрын
Oh my retros
@FLDE
8 ай бұрын
Does anyone know how to simulate, or emulate, the Z80 distortion using some sort of script or plugin?
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
You can look at the DAC waveform in something like Audacity to get an idea. It's a random amount of brief pause (like 3 to 15 samples or so) every 13 or so milliseconds IIRC.
@biskitvixxn
17 күн бұрын
Could you create a new link for the downloads? The onedrive links have expired.
@Sengin31
17 күн бұрын
Ugh, I wasn't aware that onedrive ever expired links. I created new ones and verified they work on another browser - please let me know if they do not.
@biskitvixxn
17 күн бұрын
@@Sengin31 gonna have to check tomorrow; microsoft screwed me over out of using onedrive for ZERO reason (I created an account today and it got blocked) edit:nevermind it's unblocked now. yeah the links work. thanks
@Sengin31
16 күн бұрын
@@biskitvixxn You shouldn't need a onedrive account to download them. I tried it on a private browser (so no previous cookies, no saved settings, etc) and I was able to download.
@iwontbeforgotten
Жыл бұрын
Aren't hi-hats literally made using the noise channel
@Sengin31
Жыл бұрын
Yes, see 00:45 for more details on the hi hats (and the text below the waveforms).
@iwontbeforgotten
Жыл бұрын
@@Sengin31 Oh I didn't notice there was text I was watching it on my phone vertically makes sense now
@Sengin31
Жыл бұрын
@@iwontbeforgotten No worries - this is not exactly an expertly-produced video :). I don't have much editing skills beyond stitching clips together and syncing them to music for montages - this was done in Blender (yes, the free 3D modeling and animation app has a video editor).
@epicjoshy1485
20 күн бұрын
so that’s how Sonic 3 AIR’s ost sounds nicer
@Sengin31
20 күн бұрын
I know there was a guy who was working on it. He claimed to have found the samples but wouldn't tell anyone 'until it was done.' Then he disappeared and stopped posting /shrug. Then I finally found these.
@epicjoshy1485
20 күн бұрын
@@Sengin31 That’s fascinating! It would’ve been so cool to know him at least with like a voice recording or something. I never favor much of the crunchy PCM samples in Mega Drive/Genesis games. I get why and it’s a big challenge pushing every sound effects to the rom with the game data too.
@TheLostwaveFurry
4 күн бұрын
feels like when your ears pop
@diskus_invr
8 ай бұрын
i'll always prefer the distorted versions
@CcMusicAndMore
2 ай бұрын
You do realise that the hi-hats use the psg noise channel, right?
@Sengin31
2 ай бұрын
Yes, if you watch the video there's a section going over it at 0:46. "Hi hat sounds were typically not sampled but instead created by randomly generating noise on the SN76496's 4th channel with a volume envelope. Here the hi hats were replaced with similar-sounding sampled hi hats. [snip]"
@CcMusicAndMore
2 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 oh. Okay.
@SubroOrbus
7 ай бұрын
I like the higher quality, though I'm not a big fan of their higher apparent pitch.
@insertaccountnamehere9505
Жыл бұрын
Amazing work!
@Retro1c
Ай бұрын
by any chance do you have a download file for the original compressed samples? what im talking about is the crunchy samples (the first ones played in the single sample comparison)
@Sengin31
Ай бұрын
I don't but I'm sure it exists out there somewhere
@knuxuki1013
Жыл бұрын
This is really great to hear
@Ness_JustNess
8 ай бұрын
Why do the compressed ones still slap
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
Distortion can sound good, and bass can sound good. This "Z80 distortion" adds low frequencies and some distortion!
@Ness_JustNess
8 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 also if I heard the entire sonic 3 ost (includes doomsday) with the clean samples life would be complete
@Ness_JustNess
26 күн бұрын
looking back at this comment now i feel like if sega and nintendo came to an agreement in 1993 and released sonic 3 for the snes it would sound like this
@SUPAHMARIOBOIII
4 ай бұрын
for some reason it sounds a bit more fast paced and groovy with the restored percussion.
@pixelatedluisyt
Ай бұрын
THAT SURPRISE SONIC 3D BLAST APPEARANCE WAS AMAZING
@Sengin31
Ай бұрын
I was pretty surprised to see that 3D Blast used mostly the same set of percussion samples. It makes sense to save on resources, but the format of the music and the synths chosen are so different from 3&K I just never realized.
@pixelatedluisyt
Ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 i kinda just figured it was the same thing as 3&k because it released after it by like 2 years also you fixed up one of the best songs in the whole game tysm 🥹🥹
@HelperUnknownGB
8 ай бұрын
I wonder if someone is gonna mod this for Sonic 3 AIR
@MarceloWill2
Жыл бұрын
Theses songs is used on Sonic 3 a.i.r Angel island revisiteded Sorry of my bad english
@Sengin31
Жыл бұрын
I think there is someone who was thinking about doing something like this, but when I last looked they only had a couple examples and they weren't forthcoming on where the original samples came from, stating that it would be released when the entire soundtrack was done (which was said a couple years ago) but for now it was just 'replaced with high quality sources' or something.
@Argentina_guy753
8 ай бұрын
thanks you so much dude
@yosh-9999
8 ай бұрын
The non distorted drums sound so, spacious? If that makes sense
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
It does - I think it's because of the high-frequency content of the original drums. The genesis' sample rate restriction tends to cut off frequencies of samples beyond ~7KHz because of the high compression needed to fit on the cartridge. A lot of people interpret higher frequencies as a feeling of 'space' - or perhaps interpret the *lack* of high frequencies as a lack of space?
@EmoryIllustrated
8 ай бұрын
It tends to be that compression goes through low-passes, not high-passes, resulting in that bassy muffled sound.
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
@@EmoryIllustrated It's not quite that it goes through low pass filtering, but that due to reducing the sample rate it reduces the range of frequencies that can be represented.
@SethSkoda
8 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 this. The lower the sample rate, the lower the maximum frequency that can be encoded, even using raw, uncompressed data.
@LoadingError0
8 ай бұрын
ough, this game needs a proper remaster so badly
@SethSkoda
8 ай бұрын
I could do the OST. I have all of the necessary tools.
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
@@SethSkoda As far as I am aware, the original samples for the "MJ" tracks (Ice Cap, Launch Base, Carnival Night, Knuckles, Miniboss) have not been found (they could have been created for them). There's only a few known (such as the glass break sounds from Carnival Night coming from In The Closet).
@SethSkoda
8 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 hmm, that could be problematic. I'll definitely look into finding a solution, though
@Sengin31
8 ай бұрын
@@SethSkoda This is what's known: forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?threads/does-anyone-have-the-original-hq-samples-used-in-sonic-3-knuckles.39173 If you somehow manage to find more let me know. You can get better quality samples from the cartridge by using SMPSPlay on those song's vgm files and solo'ing the DAC channel, but they would still be limited by what's on the cartridge (sample rate and length affected).
@SethSkoda
8 ай бұрын
@@Sengin31 thank you very much for this. Bookmarking this. I'm going to contact a few people who have sample libraries from back when they were something you purchased at a store.
@majindoodles
Жыл бұрын
this just popped up on my recommended what a nice video [:
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