not double blind if the tester knows which headphone has been burnt in
@VeggiePopper
3 жыл бұрын
This.
@JulAlxAU
7 жыл бұрын
To this date, I have bought 3 pairs of NAD HP-50 for myself and the other family members. The last one was for my brother. I decided to compare my two year old pair with my brother's brand new out of the box. And the difference was huge, easily audible. Certainly burning-in works.
@huyphamuc6372
6 жыл бұрын
Yeah it's in the color
@alfonzooliviera1121
10 жыл бұрын
Im sure he saw what was the reflection in the computer screen infront of him
@Cypeq
8 жыл бұрын
I look at my computer and I don't see my own reflection in it. There are also other ways to cheat it. They don't do it for tricks.
@PrestonGranger
7 жыл бұрын
So why exactly do you think he's lying then?
@pratikrchavan9093
6 жыл бұрын
that's exactly what I thought when I first saw the video it's nt just reflection this earcups are so big what if you can see them while they are on your head, also the wire i don't think that is a fair test but ok just for fun.
@brydon10
6 жыл бұрын
A lot of screens have anti-glare (matte finish). Not all are glossy.
@Thevikingcam
5 жыл бұрын
Tyll is/was maybe the most respected reviewer in the bisnes ....
@mattwoolley
7 жыл бұрын
For all these people saying he can see the reflection and is lying, why? What is the point of lying? What would these guys have invested in a particular outcome?
@chipsaunders154
6 жыл бұрын
They say at the very beginning of the video that they've "already done some of this," and that they "know the results," so apparently they're play-acting. If that's the case, all these complaints are irrelevant.
@homerthompson6028
6 жыл бұрын
Headphone burn in is REAL guys. I've wondered this for years too and i didn't really believe in the HiFi audio community because niche communities in general will always be biased toward certain aspects of their hobby but anyway, I had these headphones that were starting to cut out in one ear so I ordered a new pair and when I put on them on, it sounded like muffled shit compared to my old ones, and trust me, it is a night and day difference in the two. You would have to have some really fucked up ears not to notice. Burn in is real.
@mattmiller2761
5 жыл бұрын
I agree. The only way to tell is to have a two pairs of identical headphones. One old and one new. I've experienced it once. There was absolutely no doubt. Burn in is real. Some headphones may not have as much of a pronounced difference as others.
@prs314
8 жыл бұрын
You don't really know what 'double' means in a 'double-blind test', do you? A better protocol would be to take at least 10 pairs of identical headphones, label them 1 through 10 and give them to a third-party to burn-in half of them (or any amount from 3 to 7, for example), so even you don't know which ones are burned in. Afterwards do at least 100 measurements and see if you have any clue which ones are burned in and which ones are not from the data.
@InnerFidelity
13 жыл бұрын
@oakface Well ... neither Brian nor I could see them. And I made a conscious effort to look straight ahead at the computer screen. Don't think that was an issue. But I've been thinkiing of putting masking tape over my eyes next time ... just to asuage the skeptics.
@joakimolsson1024
7 жыл бұрын
To make it accurate you should first test two pairs new and make sure they sound the same. Then break in one. The difference you are hearing might actually be from deviations in production instead of break in :)
@ToastyTexan911
Жыл бұрын
if you were to get new two pairs then why would those pairs not have the same potential "deviations in production"? Their test actually would be the statistically correct way of performing the experiment
@clickbaitpro
Жыл бұрын
Even if they have "deviations" in the frequency response, the test is still accurate because newer pair sounds stiff and burned in one sounds smoother
@joakimolsson1024
Жыл бұрын
@@clickbaitpro how does stiff sound? 😆
@discolocalpersonal2668
Жыл бұрын
@@joakimolsson1024 rough, stiff, dull, dull or lifeless
@discolocalpersonal2668
Жыл бұрын
@@joakimolsson1024 after burning without listening to avoid being told that it was because you got used to it. You test with two equal pairs. Then you will notice a less fatiguing and more immersive sound.
@piglet1ification
11 жыл бұрын
Its like when you get a new leather wallet which is stiff but after a few months they loosen up. This effect would cause the tranducer/diaphram to render a diferent sound as the friction or material has less phisical memory resistance.
@onetwentyfour
7 жыл бұрын
One could also say you can feel the difference in the new pads and clamp vs the old. A new pair of the same headphones wouldn't be as comfy.
@KingdomKey57
4 жыл бұрын
mosincredible thinking the same thing. They should have put a new pair of pads on the old headphones. Some of my headphones that I have used for years have a significantly different feel and shape to when they were first purchased
@derbigpr500
13 жыл бұрын
You can probably feel the difference in ear pads between the new ones and old ones. Also, new headphones tend to have a smell of plastics or leather, so you can feel the scent of that as well.
@theodoro89
10 жыл бұрын
I am not an audiophile but there was a big difference with my DT990s. After 30-40 hours they sounded like different headphones. I can't understand why this is a "myth".
@theodoro89
10 жыл бұрын
Maybe, but i used the headphones for 5 days about 7 hours a day and hearing always at the same volume. The bass was never rumbled the cup or my ear at the first day, but the 3rd day the bass and treble became way more agressive and actually the cup was shaking and had more power than the first day. The songs and the volume, of course, were the same. I didn't hear any differences after burning in my other headphones, but for the DT990 pros i believe it was a day-night difference. It was like i was hearing from different headphones. I could actually feel the difference without even hearing the headphones. I could just touch them on a bassy song and feel the shaking :P
@theodoro89
10 жыл бұрын
I know, but why it didn't happen to any other of my headphones? Just as the video showed, burning in the headphones sometimes makes a difference and with my DT990s there was a difference. With my HD600 i didn't notice any difference at all. With the Beyerdynamic COP, also no difference. DT990s, almost different headphones. If that's a placebo effect then my ears and my brain are pretty messed up...
@theodoro89
10 жыл бұрын
You really don't believe at the burning-in headphones, huh? :P :P
@SianaGearz
10 жыл бұрын
theodoro89 It might indeed be the case that they wore in or burned in. However there is also a lot of mental adjustment going on, and it may have something to do with you having different expectations of different headphones. Without a rigorous test, neither possibility should be ruled out.
@skylinedrag
8 жыл бұрын
My Grado was much worse when I bought them than now, after houndreds of hours. The details, soundstage, bass precision are better than at the beginning
@InnerFidelity
13 жыл бұрын
@lipardfilm We tilted it back so you couldn't see anything. Again, no smoke and mirrors, differences were clearly audible.
@theRealAV8r
9 жыл бұрын
I think a lot of it is in our heads, probably 90% - we expect change, so we get it. The rest is probably simple mechanical ones OUTside our heads. Headphones are heavily influenced by driver positioning relative to our ears, and this changes as you wear them. Ear cushions compress and adapt to our heads. Driver typically gets closer, bass typically gets louder as a result. That in turns can give a warmer sound all across the board. This is why earpad swaps often make significant differences. Add real change to expectation, and the effects are very real. Imho anyway.
@zive808
10 жыл бұрын
I know that the intention was to create a double-blind test but there was zero-blind here. Both Brian (who knew which pair was burned-in) and you, who had a reflective screen in front of you during the test knew which pair was which. I know this was unintentional but could you please re-conduct this test with a better design? Thank you!
@harleysq
9 жыл бұрын
would also have been better with two of the exact same models (2 K's)
@plorwax
12 жыл бұрын
stop with the hating! why would he lie about this!? this guy makes one of the best and honest reviews on headphone that i know on the internet including head-fi so there is really no point of him cheating on this
@frankcross2297
Жыл бұрын
1.) Could just be 2 different sounding headphones. 2.) Tyll later concluded, by burning in a brand new pair of headphones, that the major differences in frequency response, were more over a 24 hour period due to heating and cooling of the environment, rather than burn in. I think he burned in a new pair for over 300 hours and the only visible changes in the frequency response were 1dB - 2dB in very narrow regions of the treble.
@clickbaitpro
Жыл бұрын
You cant measure it just like you cant measure the soundstage, bass tightness and mids smoothness from the frequency response. 1 or 2 db variations you mentioned is just pad wear effect. Even if they have "deviations" from pair to pair in the frequency response, the test is still accurate because newer pair sounds stiff and burned in one sounds smoother
@neilarch6277
8 жыл бұрын
I used to think burn in was bullshit but i have noticed a dramatic change in both earbuds and over ear headphones over time.
@clickbaitpro
Жыл бұрын
it's myth until you hear it
@arunabraham9382
7 жыл бұрын
I am also a good music listener. I had a pair of Kipsch Image s4, which I had high hopes. But disappointed at first. It was like bass and treble where high were i could feel the bass was not that resposive enough to be a comfy listening. after sever hours of burn in and listening, which i didnt spent much time, but in a weeks I could feel the difference. I can hear the near flatness of frequency where all the sounds were balanced and could experience sound stage. So I believe in burning. Now i own an HD 201, i can feel the improvement in sound over usage. Yes there is a saturation point, were in my case used headphones are better than new ones
@drez13
13 жыл бұрын
To me this is a perfect testing methodology and one I employ myself - by allowing test subject to control audio playback he can adjust for his own auditory memory and thought process.
@SergeySedlovsky
9 жыл бұрын
I am an audiophile and I call bullshit on that one in terms of how it was done, he had his eyes on the laptop staring at the reflection, it's easy to see the color. Though burn in I don't know how much it is real in terms of mechanical burn-in, but at least mental burn-in exists, that's for real.
@Seramics
9 жыл бұрын
Sergey Sedlovsky exactly... come on... at least blindfold or no laptop in front... what is the laptop for? reflection is so easy to tell... green is simply darker color....
@gavinxq2274
7 жыл бұрын
It's no reflection if the screen is on (not dark). There's no need to be dishonest.
@bfkc111
6 жыл бұрын
That's way more random, or the same thing. Take your pick. Either it's the mental image of the burn-in (check!) or they are just randomly different. Not a good point to make.
@everydayigetclosertothelig3992
5 жыл бұрын
i am confused, what exactly is the relationship between being an audiophile and sayng that the test is not done fairly? why did you need to state that you are an audiophile and than address a thing that has littetaly nothing to do with sound? there is maybe just a slight chance that you are just a douchebag
@MrStingraybernard
8 жыл бұрын
he can see the reflection on the laptop screen
@isaaclowe7212
8 жыл бұрын
your totally right, he is looking at the screen the entire time... lame I wanted it to be a real test... although I do believe in broken-in headphone myself, they should have at least given it a chance and test it legit...
@forthosewhodare7325
7 жыл бұрын
If their intentions were to cheat then there are many other ways to cheat as well.
@MrDannydjmix2
7 жыл бұрын
well look at the angle of the screen he might see the ceiling instead?!
@forthosewhodare7325
7 жыл бұрын
if their intentions were to cheat then even if he were blindfolded they still can cheat regardless.
@dchimkinov
11 жыл бұрын
In this kind of tests glossy laptop screens work better than "burn in effect" or whatever you call it.
@camelazo
3 жыл бұрын
Well remember, laptop screens are reflective!
@rj540
6 жыл бұрын
this is totally true. My dollar tree ear buds used to sound terrible, but after burning in they blow away my Sehhheiser Momentums.
@travisbutterfly
12 жыл бұрын
Yes, what i meant is that both the headphone pad should be new as both have never been "used" one of them is just burned in for 1000 hour without being worn by anyone.
@JohnJones-eo6rq
7 жыл бұрын
These guys have good taste. That test loop is from the band Pinback; it's their song "Non Photo Blue". Good stuff.
@oakface
13 жыл бұрын
@InnerFidelity I am a subjectivist so I tend to believe in burn in, but this is not a foolproof test for one simple reason. In testing my own peripheral vision with my hand and things of other colour, I find I can see things and what colour they are, right until they get to just a smidgen in front of my ears. About where the edge of the headphones should shoud sit.
@MrHellomoto444
12 жыл бұрын
1000 hours of burn in omg!! you got a lot of time on your hand.
@lipardfilm
13 жыл бұрын
@InnerFidelity I believe you! I really like your tests, anyway! Keep working!
@travisbutterfly
12 жыл бұрын
Many people are saying that he can feel the ear pad, if it is new or old. What i mean is they just let it sit there and burn in for 1000 hours, so the ear pad will be like brand new. So he can't tell the answer just by 'feeling'.
@InnerFidelity
13 жыл бұрын
@derbigpr500 The broken in pair were on the measurement head for about 200 hours, and then on the shelf for the next few weeks while they broke in more to pink noise. They were virtually unworn by a human, and there was very little differences in the feel, or smell (ew) of the pads.
@NightFlight1973
8 жыл бұрын
Burn-in IMHO is obvious. The HD800 I bought new broke for hundreds of hours, using the box to keep it quiet. Once a day listening tests for about 60 seconds to determine if they were 'listenable'. Ie, they sounded like shit. After a few days, closer to a week they 'smoothed' out the treble and became listenable for longer periods of time. While explaining it and getting into the science of why is entertaining - its not a requirement to enjoy the music. Break-in IMHO on the other hand is. I've also found it not to be a cure-all as some ( or most ) equipment sounds crappy and there's nothing really to be done other than to simply replace it.
@francesco111111
6 жыл бұрын
NightFlight1973 called mental burn in, happens expecially with piercing highs
@johnson42069
6 жыл бұрын
NightFlight1973 my hd650s seem like theyre getting better since a couple months ago
@Alex-fj5ko
11 жыл бұрын
it does, the drivers are made of plastic and rubber etc which perform better when they have been loosened by burning them in
@abnormallynormal8823
7 жыл бұрын
a double blind test is one in which the tester and the one being tested do. it know which is which. this prevents ANY skewed data points
@InnerFidelity
13 жыл бұрын
@spambucket99 Probably not. While I have experienced some differences with cables, it's much smaller than the difference I heard here.
@InnerFidelity
13 жыл бұрын
@rex4kho I do. It was list of music, and if you look carefully you can see it's tilted way back so that there's no reflection. No smoke and mirrors, I could tell the difference relatively easily. As others have pointed out, however, my video doesn't prove I'm hearing burn-in.
@mnoble247
7 жыл бұрын
This ill thought out bias controlled evaluation is just another reason I'm convinced subjective audiophiles have almost zero technical skills.
@francesco111111
6 жыл бұрын
This test has so much bias that shouldn't even be on here
@Florianski
5 жыл бұрын
Funny how all these audiophiles that claim they can hear grass growing are like 60 years old men. What you are hearing is called "tinitus" and not "good audioquality".
@raynathanielcaparas8064
6 жыл бұрын
I don't think he's cheating. Why would he!?
@ExacoMvm
6 жыл бұрын
But why would you lie to yourself if you already know which one u just tested?
@artiewatts9861
10 жыл бұрын
Completely agree that the laptop should not have been open - I would also like to have seen some attempt made to actually blindfold Tyll. That said, I am a burn-in believer - I've had high-end headphones which no salesman on earth could have sold straight out of the box : something definitely changes after you put a hundred or so hours on them. No argument that placebo is a factor, but I've owned enough headphones to know that it couldnt possibly explain the way many headphones 'settle down' from a harsh, u-shaped sound out of the box to something much more listenable after those drivers have sorted themselves out.
@hardwinte
13 жыл бұрын
After 2000 hours the term is no longer 'burn-in', but WEAR.
@panzerschreckify
11 жыл бұрын
You should have used 3 headphones. 2 non-burned in ones and 1 burned in. First listen the one of the non-burned in ones. And then do a blind test with the rest and compare the sounds. If you can't correctly tell which one is the burned in headphone, the idea that we have the burn in a headphone is somewhat disproven. If you only used two, you already "know" there is a difference between the two and you would be actively looking for these supposed differences even when there isn't any.
@ZorgDK
13 жыл бұрын
interesting result, nice test.
@travisbutterfly
12 жыл бұрын
If the 1000 hours burn-in pairs have never been used, then it will feel the same as the new one.
@Subparanon
12 жыл бұрын
@FiestaMagician Think of it like this. Speakers are nothing more than an electric motor that moves in and out instead of around and rotating. Same principles, electricity goes into a coil which creates a magnetic field inducing mechanical motion. And like electric motors or any moving, physical device the parts wear slightly with use and adjust to each other subtly changing the mechanical properties, vibration, and tonality. They break in just like any electric motor or car engine.
@TsukiNick
12 жыл бұрын
He just see's reflection through computer screen....
@Tiny_Haiku_Courier
11 жыл бұрын
You are not saying that burned-in pair sounded better, are you? Some might prefer the sound of brand new pair and vice versa, right?
@Subparanon
12 жыл бұрын
@FiestaMagician I'm here to tell you that burn in makes a clear difference with certain models of headphones. Some of them are so extreme that it turns unlistenable headphones into tolerable or nice headphones. The one common theme is that the treble response becomes smoother and with less sibilance or sparkle, without the highs sparkling your ears off you hear more of the bass. I've noted these differences with HD215's DT880's, SR60i's, and HD201's. I don't notice it as much on in ears like INk
@AY-dw4om
6 жыл бұрын
The question is how big is the difference, and, if the difference is due to burn-in and not different batch of production between those 2 pairs of headphones. the correct methodology is to take a set of headphones from same batch, first verifying they sound the same when new. then burn-in one set in the side, while keeping the other at bay. and then conduct the test. you need to guess 30 times. then use a "level of significance" (statistic term) test and see if you can identify above 95% (alpha = 0.95 one sided). if your identification is below 0.95 it means the difference is insignificant. if you identify more than 0.95 you proved the point. redo it again.
@skullaveraz
5 жыл бұрын
Before I got into audio, I thought I damaged my cheap pair of IEMs as music started sounding different. Only later did I realise there was this 'burn in' phenomena. I'm usually cynical about these things but I can't really deny what I've experienced before even knowing what the hell a burn in was.
@CurvedSlightly
8 жыл бұрын
Why not just have 2x whites with a little mark only the beardy dude can see?
@lenesu86
12 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the test. Although, you need a second test before burn-in to prove that there was initially no difference between the headphones.
@botzer8817
Жыл бұрын
Too many biais in this video: 1) Useless laptop in front of him, possible reflection 2) Both pads, cables and headphones should be brand new, ie bought at the exact same time, otherwise when he's touching/smelling the headphones there would be a noticeable difference. Both headphones should stay in the same conditions (temperature, etc) while burning in only one headphones. No headphones should be worn individually without the other being also worn. 3) Both headphones should be tested out of the box to make sure its not a unit difference. With that said I still believe there can be a burn in difference. There are lots of subjective things that can't be objectively measured. An identical frequency response curve between 2 headphones or any other objective measures like Rtings made does not prove that 2 hardwares sound the same.
@lipardfilm
13 жыл бұрын
what about the reflections in the notebook screen and body?
@kazora1001
13 жыл бұрын
They should redo with him blind folded.
@stevenswall
11 жыл бұрын
If there weren't any differences, how would he be able to tell the difference as well as he does in the video? I don't think it's blind luck, maybe a few times, but not several.
@ussr1942max
12 жыл бұрын
great test for burn in i have to say, but it would have been if two pairs were bought at the same time and leave one pair alone, and test the burn in effect in around 200 hours of listening, rather 1000+ hours. I mention this is because one, the two pairs obviously arent from the same shipment( which may have caused a difference) and two, seriously 1000+ hours to produce a different experience!?
@whosthisguythinkheis
12 жыл бұрын
i think this depends, and audiophile or anyone that doesn't actually know what to look out for probably wouldn't know what to hear for. anyone wana check that one out?
@shakeAbooty88
13 жыл бұрын
@InnerFidelity I'm surprised you didn't cover your eyes. I like your reviews but that was a trap for players a lot younger than you (and me). When you don't think of things like that it suggests to me that you are MORE trustworthy, not less, than most people. Keep up the good work. Cheers.
@Frostliche
11 жыл бұрын
They never said they proved anything; read the story. I'm happy someone took their time to test this, even if it's not absolute evidence.
@spambucket99
13 жыл бұрын
That's impressive! Can you do a similar video with different cables?
@64akon
12 жыл бұрын
you can see the headphone on the screen reflection
@PchoDaily614
12 жыл бұрын
He used the reflection of the laptop screen or web cam
@johncapehart8299
7 жыл бұрын
Is that a glass laptop screen? ;)
@bfkc111
6 жыл бұрын
I'm the reflection on the laptop screen, and I can finally verify that the rumours are true.
@bearjk1982
13 жыл бұрын
very nice test indeed~~~ and you have awesom ears~~!
@gideonMorrison
11 жыл бұрын
Burn in most definitely exists. It's even backed up by professional audio tech companies.
@derbigpr500
13 жыл бұрын
@InnerFidelity Just saying that its maybe possible to feel the difference between new and old in other ways than sound itself. Dont think i'm saying that burn-in has no effect, because i've felt the difference myself a lot of times, especially when comparing my new hd650's to my friends hd650's which were 4 years old. His sounded MUCH darker, loose and didnt try to squeeze the brains out of my head with their headband pressure. :P
@omccann0991
12 жыл бұрын
blindfold test this doesn't really prove much as you 'could' see the reflection in your laptop screen
@Sebelfisch
9 жыл бұрын
Why do you think is he starring into his laptop????
@fartsmeller9296
11 жыл бұрын
Non-Photo Blue. Good song choice!
@NewYawkCityTimes
13 жыл бұрын
What was the audible difference?
@davidsturgiss8500
8 жыл бұрын
I didn't see anything in the video that shows reflections off that laptop screen - there is no shot from there in this 1-camera video. So I don't see what on which these guys base their assertion that there is a screen reflection. I also looked at the laptop screen viewing angle and I would not expect any reflection from that screen to include the headphones. It is possible that a non-reflective (as opposed to highly-reflective) screen might smear in surrounding colors and information so the test would be better done with same-color headphones but then the simplicity (and visibility) of the test would be lessened. There also needs to be certainty that there is no difference in volume.
@isaaclowe7212
8 жыл бұрын
Because they have a white pair and a NEON green pair, how hard would it be to tell those two colors apart, from any reflection! Even the laptop body reflects...
@TheGamingAudiophile
13 жыл бұрын
@FiestaMagician Or he can see the video recording preview on the laptop's screen...
@CynHicks
4 жыл бұрын
What track are you looping in the test? I'm curious. Sounds like something I may like.
@mariadelcarmengarciasanche9674
6 жыл бұрын
I am laughing at those who mention about the laptop's screen reflection. If that laptop was not there and Tyll was looking straight ahead, would they say there was a mirror ???
@corykong2
12 жыл бұрын
What do you guys mean by "burning?" Is this a good or a bad thing?
@pratikrchavan9093
6 жыл бұрын
he don't have to sit in front of the laptop
@ClydeRockwaY
12 жыл бұрын
Do subtitles please
@Enahseladsit
12 жыл бұрын
+1 for the Pinback
@johnabrooking2333
8 жыл бұрын
can't you see any reflection on lap top screen? :)
@1lastsoldier
13 жыл бұрын
what kind of music are you listening to?
@innocentpixels
12 жыл бұрын
its angled so he can't see them
@michaelzacharias1615
7 жыл бұрын
watching what the cameras recording on the laptop lol, good test
@ThatCrazyRCGuy67
11 жыл бұрын
What material did you use to burn in you headphones? Thanks
@InnerFidelity
13 жыл бұрын
@NewYawkCityTimes The new one sounded harsher. The old one clearly smoother on the ears.
@CaBdosdos
11 жыл бұрын
Anyone who thinks this is staged, is your ultimate point to convey that headphone burn in doesn't exist?
@This_Is_Not_My_Username
12 жыл бұрын
Next time do it inna room where there is no reflective laptop screen in front of you. i see you looking at it every time
@kurudeiemsanket2397
7 жыл бұрын
at the last what brian said, is it audible difference or not?
@nikonovandrej1985
12 жыл бұрын
Noup, physics is not your strong side. Look at the laptop screen angle. He can not see the reflection of himself, selling is what he can see at that angles. Try yourself.
@claptoned0
12 жыл бұрын
reflections in the screen...you see...
@stevenswall
11 жыл бұрын
(Giving him the benefit of the doubt that they have records of more than 5 tests shown in the video.)
@charlesbritannia7719
11 жыл бұрын
Burn in doesn't exist. This is rigged.
@themotownboy1
9 жыл бұрын
For this to be really effective in presentation, you should have been blindfolded. why weren't you?
@phototristan
9 жыл бұрын
Very bunk test. You can clearly see behind you via the reflection the laptop. The fact you would even publish this video and didn't shoot it again without that cheat is surprising.
@ArielGomezLicairac
13 жыл бұрын
you can see with the screen of the laptop :P
@DaveK183
11 жыл бұрын
Lol, they are open-back headphones so the whole sound is leaking.
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