Thanks for featuring me on your channel! I'm happy to answer any V2G related questions. -Jai
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
some how youtube deleted my comment. my question was: how could V2G ever be competitive to stationary batteries? I explained my reasons in more detail in a comment somewhat earlier. sorry for not providing a link to the comment. I am not sure if that was the reason youtube deleted my question in the first place.
@The18107j
11 ай бұрын
@@MusikCassette If you are buying an EV for the purpose of powering your house (and not driving the car), then it's not competitive. If you already have the car, or are buying the car anyway, then a V2G charger provides access to the car's battery for when you don't need all of it. Most car batteries are in the range of 5-15x the capacity of a house battery. Even using 30% of your car battery (and leaving 70% for travelling) can be more available capacity for the same cost as installing a house battery. The Quasar 1 is lacking a few features that makes house batteries particularly enticing: blackout protection, and home power matching (powering the home without importing or exporting to the grid). If the new V2G chargers have these features, and can be bought for less than the cost of a house battery, a V2G charger could be a cost competitive alternative to a house battery for people who have their cars at home during peak usage time.
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
@@The18107j in that example would that not mean, that my car battery is 30% to big vor my day to day uses? That I carry around 30% more weight than necessary and paid 30% to much on the car battery? would it not be better to have a 30% smaller Batterie in my car and have that capacity in my house let us say in form of 2nd life 20% degraded car batteries. That way I payed less for the over all capacity and I have less weight, that I drive around. on the other hand, I wasn't talking about V2H. I was talking about V2G. having a bidirectional charger has benefits that are not in those economic calculations. It adds flexibility and energy security. I was talking about V2G where the Grid pays vehicle owners for using their batteries. What I mean If they pay a fair prise, than there are cheaper options for them in stationary batteries. And on top of that those options are even higher value for them and easier to manage.
@nc3826
11 ай бұрын
@@The18107j V2G is a fascinating concept, until you factor in the initial high cost and that most people commute to work..... Which is when demand exceeds supply... Australia is the ideal market for V2G, but only for stay at home businesses such as influencers..... When battery swapping becomes a more widespread option, it will be a far more practical way of doing electricity arbitrage... To timeshift high demand periods with high supply periods.... IMHO...
@mikeklein4949
11 ай бұрын
Firewood also has limited applications for mobility.
@GNiessen
11 ай бұрын
The grid providers should be supportive of V2X. But they are fighting it in every way.
@Conservator.
11 ай бұрын
When grid-based solar panel inverters cost about $1000, I don’t see why a V2G box would have to be so expensive. It’s probably the low production numbers that keeps the price up. When production numbers go up, the prices should go down and V2G will hopefully become the standard EV home connector. 🤞
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
I don't see that working out economically on a big scale.
@Conservator.
11 ай бұрын
@@MusikCassette Why not? Especially in places with lots of wind and solar energy, there’s a need for storage and EVs can provide that with even a small amount of the capacity of their batteries. EVs could automatically charge when energy prices are low and feed the grid when prices are high. The benefits for power generation companies are enormous so they are happy to pay for it. Why wouldn’t it work on a large scale?
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
@@Conservator. charging when prices are low, yes. But V2G includes feeding the energy back into the Grid. And I can not see a large scale situation where this would not be cheaper to do with stationary batteries. Be it car batteries in their second live are just cheaper battery types. Using batteries that are still used for transport for that is extracting value from the wrong part of their lifecycle. The wear in this part of the batteries life does not only cost capacity but also energy density. And for a vehicle, that is valuable.
@ottot3221
11 ай бұрын
@@MusikCassette There is no wear of the batteries. If anything it keeps the batteries more healthy. The "wear" accurse when massive amount of energy are all at once taken or put on the batteries. For instance when pulling up from 0 to 100 in 2.3 seconds. V2X doesn't do that.
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
@@ottot3221 yes there is. it might be lower than the wear from the regular use of the battery, but that does not change that stationary batteries are even cheaper.
@Imakilln
11 ай бұрын
V2G IMO is an absolutely essential part of transitioning the grid to renewables. Additionally we should be encouraging daytime workplaces to install (grid communicating!) EV chargers so that all that cheap(or negatively priced!) daytime solar can be soaked up and stored in EV batteries to reduce household peak hour usage instead of being an additional massive load/burden on the grid when all the commuters get home and plug in. Plus this reduces the amount of total grid storage required which helps us transition even faster. Yes it means your EV battery will degrade slightly faster but the benefits outweigh the costs! I'm about a year or so from buying an EV and VTG is a MUST HAVE feature for me!
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
I can not see V2G being competitive to stationary batteries.
@Imakilln
11 ай бұрын
It's not only about being cost competitive (which it is because it saves you a buttload on peak usage rates alone / can buy when prices are negative as shown), It's about an efficient use of resources - Generating electricity, storing it, transporting it to your house and again storing it in an EV is just inefficient. You effectively at need TWO batteries somewhere instead of one.. @@MusikCassette
@tomr6955
11 ай бұрын
Delusional
@bearcubdaycare
11 ай бұрын
@@MusikCassetteIf a car already has a 60kWh battery pack, the incremental cost of using it V2G could be very small, just the additional cycles on the battery each year. If an EV's LFP battery pack has a cycle life of 8000, then V2G usage may not degrade the car's life much, for a storage that's much more than, say, a Tesla PowerWall. Comparing to massive grid storage batteries is harder, but may turn out not to be so bad, given an EV has batteries anyway.
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
@@Imakilln I am talking about resources. And what I mean is, that using car batteries instead of stationär batteries fundamentally must be the more wasteful way.
@Spechtlerimwald
11 ай бұрын
That's a nice theory, as long as you don't use the car to drive elsewhere@noon/high sunshine time. Except you may charge at your w0rkplace and take the power home for a good warm or cool night. And, while house batteries are good to get your house through the night, they are not made for vehicle recharging.
@bannor99
11 ай бұрын
This should have been a required feature of EVs from Day One.
@TheBlibo
11 ай бұрын
Hi I have enjoyed most of your vids very informative. Vehicle to grid not for me thanks, so get home from work plug in your car and a 3AM you get a call from your dad to say come quickly mum is in a real bad way, you go to your car and it now only has a quarter charge and you need three quarter charge to get there. You just missed your last good by, I live in the UK which is small by your standards but probably has a better charging infrastructure per km but it is still not enough Keep up the good work
@Annon89
11 ай бұрын
If your work provided power you would probably only be able to gain what you were driving unless they had high power charges which I doubt many employers would have.
@colincampbell3679
11 ай бұрын
Alright if your rich enough to buy the high priced tons of tech to do it? sadly 90% of the planet are not rich. So the rich will benefit from the power and money making and the rest won't.
@gpsfinancial6988
11 ай бұрын
Storing surplus energy and returning it to the grid at peak demand it should lower the overall cost of electricity to all consumers.
@johnway9853
11 ай бұрын
Yet another outstanding video from Rosie, thanks as always. V2G stabilization experiments with school busses is a really interesting offshoot of this. They spend the vast majority of the day stationary and the amount of residual energy they are going to need when put into service is very predictable.
@dermotbalaam5358
11 ай бұрын
Expect power companies to work against anything that reduces their profitability.
@ottot3221
11 ай бұрын
Thank you for your video. I live in the Netherlands. My Toyota Prius hybrid is now 17 years old. It still works fine but I know I need to upgrade to a full EV in the next few years. I want a car that does V2X so I started to research it and only the Nissan Leaf is a car that is affordable for me. Even the car sales man told he he didn't know anything about the V2X component of that car! It was kind of frustrating. The 2 other cars on the market are 70K or more and go above my budget. It's super frustrating and I hope V2X will be the standard in a few years time. Things like the wallbox should become cheaper due to mass production (I hope). In 2022 Utrecht (city in the Netherlands) said they wanted to be the first V2G city in the world and they use modified Ionic 5's (it's part of a European project) so these cars could be it but not for regular customers like me.
@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ
11 ай бұрын
If cheap home battery storage is the desire then I think one cost-effective option today is to just use a Leaf battery pack plugged into a relatively inexpensive inverter (search Dala EV).
@FoxInClogs
11 ай бұрын
I bought a Nissan Leaf (62 kWh) to use as a home battery, and optionally as a mode of transport. (I probably drive less than 6 hours during a normal working month. Unfortunately I hadn't done enough research and abandoned the idea of V2X for the time being. My reasons: - The Wallbox Quasar 1 is still available in the Netherlands, but has been out of production for a while. - I believe that it's a DC charger using the ChaDeMo connector, which is rapidly being phased out in Europe, with CCS2 now being the mandated by the EU. This means that the charger wouldn't be compatible with any car I buy in the future. - At 4,500 Euros, the Quasar is more than three times the price of a Zappi smart charger. A lot of cash to fork out for an obsolete product, that I could junk next time I buy a car. I believe that the EU is going to mandate V2X via CCS in the near future, so I'm hoping to still be able to do this sometime. The Wallbox Quasar 2 works with CCS, I believe, and has been promised since last year. There's still no sign of it becoming available yet. The number of EVs that (maybe?) support this in Europe is still limited, and I'm not convinced that this really works. The manufacturers only seem to officially support V2L at the moment. - Renault Megane E-Tech Electric - Hyundai Ioniq 5 - Kia EV6
@markthomasson5077
11 ай бұрын
When looking at the amount of useful storage in vehicles, you should use, say, 10%, of the car battery capacity. Most would be happy to get paid for that without compromising the use of the car, or degrading the battery.
@thereplacementfordisplacement
2 ай бұрын
Around here you can buy a base Nissan Leaf to use as a V2G/V2H battery first and spare car second or car to rescue your primary EV or friends EV. I can get a Leaf for $15k, just had Powerwall hardware only quote along with PV system around $11k for 1/3 the capacity of Leaf. Nice thing is you can leave Leaf outside where battery fire won't burn your house to the ground.
@EcoHouseThailand
10 ай бұрын
Hi Rosie I am currently using V2L from my BYD Seal in conjunction with my home solar system to power my home. There is a video about it on my channel.
@mbarber4089
11 ай бұрын
I wonder what is holding Tesla back from providing bidirectional batteries in their cars? Is it just to support their powerwall sales?
@SeanLeach
11 ай бұрын
If you want to learn more about scaled V2G roll outs in the US, reach out Rosie! We have EV school buses performing V2G duties across the US!
@nc3826
11 ай бұрын
it's the best use case scenario.... But if it's the only use case, it's an example of the lack of scalability....
@winfriedtheis5767
11 ай бұрын
Thanks for revisiting the topic, and particularly the product, that upgrades V2L to V2H is a brilliant thing to know about! BTW: the Kia EV9 will be the first Kia to get full V2G capability and I understand from their press release this will be true for all e-GMP cars from model year 2024! So Hyundai Ionic 5+6, Kia EV6, EV9, Genesis GV60, … But potentially not the Niro, better to check! They will also offer their own bidirectional chargers, both as AC and DC versions. Certainly something to keep an eye on!
@edvoon
11 ай бұрын
And then Wallbox rips the heart out of every LEAF owner by discontinuing the Quasar1 and not supporting Chademo any more. If you haven’t yet got one, it’s impossible to get one now. Also what is HOEM’s website? And can they sell outside SA? Can’t find any info about their product.
@rickrys2729
11 ай бұрын
As you point out there is huge energy available in EV batteries that would be available to support the grid and home loads. Utilities need to allow and fairly reward V2G/ home battery owners and EV makers need to allow V2G taking into account increased battery cycles on warranties. V2G and V2L/H will surely become quite popular in the future.
@philherb3843
11 ай бұрын
I see a problem with V2G and even V2L: If you can free charge at work and put the power to your house for the rest of the day or even a home battery, you can safe money and taxes. But maybe it is not legal. For exampel, in Germany we can charge our private EV at work without paying tax on it as part of getting EVs started. The company could benefit on lower salery and higher electric consumption (if high enough, they don't need to pay powerline-fees and some taxes to help power-hungry companies). If you do so, you can use 20 kWh at home every workday or even 40-60 kWh on the weekend. That would be 1400-2000€ per year, so a significant amount.
@aurelspecker6740
11 ай бұрын
The cost calculation does have a small flaw: It does not include the opportunity cost. You don't buy an EV as a battery, you buy an EV INSTEAD of a petrol car. So, you can substract the lifetime cost of petrol car, to get the pure "added cost". Only the added cost matters to evaluate the economic viability. Over the lifetime (10yr), an EV+wallbox costs around the same as a petrol car. I.e. EV - 55k Energy E - 15k Wallbox (V2G) - 10k Total - 80k Petrol car - 30k Energy Petrol - 40k Total - 70k --------------------- This is the cost baseline: Your EV-V2G Setup, did only "cost" 10k. Because only 10k is the additional cost over your alternative. (Unless you have the opportunity to live without a car, but noone would buy a V2G without needing a car.) So, you ONLY have to plot your 10k added cost versus the "income" of electricity. If you can make just 3€ a day average (note, mitigated cost of self use DOES count), you would break even. Most likely though, you do much more than just 3€ when including the mitigated electricity cost. At 10€, you would make a surplus of 26000€.
@stephenbrickwood1602
11 ай бұрын
You missed the point Rossie, that if every one of the 20million had rooftop PV and an EV plugged in for 23hrs every day then the grids is UNLOADED. The grid is free to do other jobs. Central generation MUST include the grid costs. This TRIPLES electricity costs to the 20million grid customers. No fossil fuels means 5fold, QUADTUPLE, bigger electric demand. 5fold, QUADTUPLE, bigger GENERATION and TRANSMISSION costs. 15 TIMES cost increased. That is why V2G and rooftop PV is so economically powerful. It avoids the add on costs of the other technologies. People think backwards and upside down and actually go on to promote nuclear central generation. This is economic rubbish for us. Nuclear promoters will make billions $ and with government Garrentees.
@stephenbrickwood1602
11 ай бұрын
Basically the battery is free with every EV. Rooftop solar is cheaper than windows $/m2. Buildings are connected to the grid. No new grid is needed. Snowy 2 is being killed economically by ts new grid transmission construction costs. Transmission grids are humongously expensive $/klm. Most vehicles are parked 23hrs every day. Selfparking EVs and home robotic vacuum cleaners will be self plugged in 23hrs every day. O happy days, O happy days ,😊😊😊😊
@fauzirahman3285
11 ай бұрын
I haven't really considered getting an EV car as I don't drive much but if V2H is made available in Victoria, I might seriously consider it. Instead of getting a home battery, having a car that can power the house in an outage and soak up all the excess solar would be a plus. V2G would be a bonus.
@tomarmstrong1281
Ай бұрын
It has to happen; what is an EV? It is a sodding great big battery. The technology is there; let's get on with it.
@chlistens7742
11 ай бұрын
Nice to see V2G ... were i live in the US you can only do V2L or V2H, again a modified setup that you would have for solar and battery to power the house or parts of it when power is off.. but they require you to disconnect those circuits from the grid with a transfer switch (the same one people use with a gas powered generator). In our area it is the power companies that are mostly preventing V2G and probably the coal power peaker plants lobbyists to the power company. So in the US we pretty much have V2L and V2transfer switch loads I have been told by friends that it will be 1-2 years before our local power company has (time or whatever) to be able to put in tV2G or in many cases even home solar to grid. The reason we spouted is each one of these houses is being setup as an individual peaker plant . So yea US is .. no were near the top on V2G allowability. there are many places were home solar/battery are being setup and allowed but again you need the power company's permission (and dual direction meter installation) before they allow you to hook up evenfull V2H. The only way to do it in most cases is literally a transfer switch for your new solar setup or waiting for your local power company to ok it.
@dtroy15
11 ай бұрын
I don't think vehicles will end up being a good solution for civil energy storage. People won't want to wake up to a car with less range in the morning than when it was plugged in the previous evening. This is really only viable for cars that get lots of charging time during the day. That would include second cars that stay home most of the time, cars used for only occasional commuting because of WFH, etc. I don't think that will happen much, as I would guess that most EV owners have either only one car or only one EV and some additional ICE vehicle(s) Owners of electric cars also aren't going to be keen to get the extra wear on the battery from the extra charge cycles. The extra cost of battery replacement, maintenance, or reduction in resale value from battery degradation seem very likely to offset any earnings from sales back to the grid during peak pricing. The homeowner you interviewed said he's making about $700/yr. That's interesting, but a replacement Nissan leaf battery runs about $10k AUD. I have a hard time imagining this taking off in the near term.
@haveaseatplease
11 ай бұрын
You can set the limits for discharging (and for charging) and one hundred other parameters.
@rtfazeberdee3519
11 ай бұрын
The discharge is AC so less stressful on the battery and if you set the car to only give 1kW per hour on V2G, you are not going to lose much range but you will be able to configure when, how long and how much the grid can take before it starts to recharge your battery, It's all in your hands
@warmon6
11 ай бұрын
For your first part, an EV owner would never experience that as long as they have the right setting adjusted on their EV and EVSE. Minimum state of charge before cutoff (say an EV never get below 60% battery), what times are allowed to discharge, and most importantly, what time to start charging. Since V2G is mainly use for time of use rates, most people that use it only send power to the grid when there's peak demand going on (aka when power cost the most). That only last from 5pm to 8~9pm in most areas around the world. Overnight when electricity is usually at its cheapest (usually by midnight), people charge their evs. It doesn't make sense to keep sending power to the grid when it doesn't make sense to financially do so. So by morning, their evs are charged up to whatever max SoC they set. So like said, they would never experience that in a normal situation. (Grid outage would be the only situation that'll happen but then thats a whole other kettle of fish of issues that be the least of an EV owner worry).
@Landwy1
10 ай бұрын
There is also vehicle to home battery. So if you drive to work or somewhere else where you get low cost vehicle charging; you can run the house on battery power if solar at home is not producing. This is especially important during winter. If you live in a valley that has fog and may stay that way unt the afternoon, why not change your home batteries and drive to an area that can recharge your car? I work at a Federal Government facility that has two solar chargers that charge EVs. Nobody is using them, and yet most everyone drives HUGE pickups. Most Americans are just idiots that only care about looking good in their siloed groups. The only way this attitude is going to change is when EVs become cool.
@geirvinje2556
11 ай бұрын
Why use the car battery? It's better to use cheap batteries that you can have in the house. As always with cars. They are a compromise between weight and space. So, why ruin your car battery a head of time, by charging and discharging it extra? I think that the savings in the long run isn't there.
@al73r
11 ай бұрын
Your car is parked more often in your driveway than on the road. V2g should be standard. Tesla i believe said nope to v2g/v2h
@joecummings1260
11 ай бұрын
Who is paying the vehicle owner for the battery degradation from increased charge/discharge cycles?
@markthomasson5077
11 ай бұрын
Power a house for several days…including heating/ AC… I don’t think so. Several hours perhaps. It gets me that we often hear: This wind farm can produce enough electricity to power X no homes. But do they say whether this includes heating? (ps, I think V2G is great and should be mandatory, certainly no grants without it)
@The18107j
11 ай бұрын
My car will last for 10 hours while exporting at 5kW. Most houses don't use 5kW continuously, and most houses with a battery or V2G charger also have solar. Even without solar, the car should last for at least 16 hours. On a typical day (not 40C+), the battery should have easily over 24 hours worth of power in it.
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
here is Why I don't think, that v2g can work on the long term: if scaled up stationary batteries will be substantially cheaper than the batteries in cars. Be it because we use second live batteries from vehicles or because we use cheaper battery types for that. Stationary batteries can afford to have lower energy density and higher demands on conditions such like temperature. So assuming, that grids pay a fair price for the use of the batteries to the car owners their will be cheaper options for the same or better products. The wear on batteries, that still serve as car batteries does not only cost capacity. It also costs energy density. Using car batteries to stabilize the Grid is extracting value from the wrong part of their life cycle. v2h is a bit different.
@davidmartin3947
11 ай бұрын
Batteries do not degrade at a constant rate. If they are somewhere in the region of 20-80% charged, and the rate of draw is low, then degradation will be very low. High rates of draw and really flattening the battery have the opposite effect. The battery capacity from a substantially electrified fleet will be massive compared to draw for any short term period, so there is no reason why V2G can't provide frequency regulation, cover for peaks etc. I am less clear on covering for extended periods, for instance cold snaps in Northern Euope, so at least in some climates it appears that long term storage will also be needed. You certainly do not want to get into a situation where you are substantially discharging the battery capacity of the fleet when inputs from solar and wind are low.
@MusikCassette
11 ай бұрын
@@davidmartin3947 That may be true, or not. I am not enough of a battery expert argue that. But I don't see how that would change the equation. The same would be true for stationary batteries. Perhaps even more because they were actually made for the use case.
@davidmartin3947
11 ай бұрын
@@MusikCassette Stationary batteries are sometimes purpose built for the job, in which case they are very different to batteries in your car, which somewhat supports your case, as they then typically trade being heavy, as that does not matter if they are not running around in a car, for better cycle life etc, and sometimes they are repurposed car batteries, who can no longer support the demanding application of car use, but have enough life remaining for stationary use as it does not hammer them as much as in cars. But the point of using V2G is if, and it is an if, they are used correctly, so that the impact on their lifetime is negligible as they are not discharged deeply then they are essentially free to support the grid. That is because there will be one heck of a lot of them relative to grid usage. In ball park figures a home might use 1kw per hour. A car battery is maybe 70KWh or so. But you are not running your home on it, but giving an occasional boost, so for instance at dinner time after the sun is down you might have a peak draw of, say, 5KWh. So the draw is not substantial relative to the capacity of the battery. And the car battery is already paid for, and does not need to be bought for the purpose It is as very different matter in a cold snap or whatever, so you would not want to use the car battery and run it flat over, say, 3 days if there is no sun or whatever. I would argue that present storage batteries are not too great as multi day support either, but fortunately there are alternatives, mainly although not exclusively by making chemicals for storage. It they are only needed,, say, once a year, then the efficiency losses of turning electricity to chemical and back again are not critical. V2G is just one of the tools we have, but a darn handy one if used properly, just like most things.
@rhiantaylor3446
11 ай бұрын
The biggest barrier to V2G at scale is the warranty provided with the vehicle which is limited in terms of miles covered but does not currently allow for charge/discharge cycles associated with V2G. The increasing popularity of batteries such as LFP which allow for many times the number of such cycles required for auto use, will presumably help but this does need to be thought through.
@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ
11 ай бұрын
That may well be the case from a legal standpoint, but I think it'd be daft from a technology standpoint as the kind of charge/discharge rates these packs would see in a V2x setup likely wouldn't come even remotely close to the stresses seen during use as a vehicle.
@nc3826
11 ай бұрын
incorrect.... Ford offers V2X In North America without a warranty limitation.... but it's mostly designed for V2H and its costly, so it's usage is limited....
@paulcummings55
11 ай бұрын
We are getting there, slowly, but eventually. Part of the concern is still the wear and tear on your expensive car battery. While they are much better than previously thought, and getting better, too much V2G may degrade the capacity of your car battery at a faster rate. LiFePo batteries may be better for V2G at this time- but let's see what new technologies come down the pike over the next 2-5 years- single crystal anodes, true solid state batteries, etc... Our eventual goal is to add more PV panels to our home and 2-4 Tesla Powerwalls... when and if we can afford the upgrade ;-) I was a bit disappointed that Elon has not integrated V2G in the Tesla models yet, as we just bought a new Model Y last month, hoping that would have been included. c'est la vie :-0
@scenicshoots
11 ай бұрын
Sad that Tesla pushed the world to EVs and now everyone else is doing vehicle to X they refuse because of the powerwall profits
@bgdexter
11 ай бұрын
A power grid company thinking out of the box could eventually see a business advantage from providing V2G hardware to EV owners for free…
@fishyerik
11 ай бұрын
Demand Side Management is technically as good for the grid as V2G, it doesn't matter for the grid if you "remove" a load or provide power during peak demand, the net effect is the same, in theory, reducing your load have no energy losses, it's slightly better. DSM also doesn't require hardware for putting power back to the grid. Sure, providing power instead of drawing power during peak demand is even better than just not drawing power, twice as good, for any given power level or amount of energy, minus losses, but personally I feel DSM gets nowhere near the focus it should. Not that V2G is bad, it would really be great if V2G systems became cheap, good and installed essentially everywhere, and that requires people buying early systems for whatever they cost, so early adopters don't "just" help by providing some power back to the grid, they also show there's a demand, and increase the chance that V2G systems become cheap, good, and common.
@chrisschneider7609
11 ай бұрын
I have had an EV for over a decade now (3 different teslas). My next ev must be v2h or g. No test has ever found an issue with this. It's obvious and easy. It's simply power companies holding it back... I wonder if the little fake v2h thing you showed would be allowed in Queensland, the most unfriendly storage state. Hopefully, we wake up soon. V2h/g is critical and could be a huge saver for the grid! That snowy example is a great one! EVs are such an amazing opportunity, and v2h will drive adoption! There is no downside here!
@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ
11 ай бұрын
I've wondered for a while if the biggest reason against this becoming widespread may be political. I don't see any insurmountable technological limitations to prevent it, and it does seem to tick many boxes for its usefulness in meeting stated energy transition goals, but do wonder at the degree of resistance that might be seen behind closed doors from present-day entrenched interests looking to maintain the existing state of affairs.
@richdobbs6595
11 ай бұрын
I expect V2G to be mandated in places like South Australia in the long run. Otherwise, people with roof top solar don't pay their share of grid maintence. The same pressures that yield high non market feed-in tariffs will make the ev adopters powerless to avoid the mandates.
@WilliamPozo
11 ай бұрын
Hello from the states. Excellent video. I don't understand why more vehicles don't offer V2H or to Grid. This is nuts! The local power companies here i'm sure are delaying all of this to keep homeowners from getting in on the distributed generation. Great video.. the wallbox is available in the US. but the leaf ? Its just not a popular vehicle and the grid operators don't offer the quasar tariff system.
@nc3826
11 ай бұрын
Buy a Ford Lightning..... It offers V2H in the US.... But the payback period for any form of V2G in the US is about forever and a day..... So good luck with that mate..... FWIW "the states" "tariff", it's so amusing that those brit terms have entered the American lexicon.....
@mikeklein4949
11 ай бұрын
The epitome of rationality. Thank you Rosie!
@madonemt
11 ай бұрын
We have 5.2kwp solar, 8.4kwh storage installed here in the uk. Have another ev in the atto3 on order and it is frustrating how v2h and v2g isn't mainstream yet. Our house battery doesn't last through dinner time in the darker months but found a workaround to take advantage of the byd v2l feature. Ecoflow do a 'powerstream' micro inverter designed for balcony solar systems and to integrate with their own batteries. Instead I'm running a semi-permanent cable from the car into an ecoflow battery in the house to top up my home storage. Best workaround for now until some real efforts are made to utilise these huge ev batteries.
@markreed9853
11 ай бұрын
I like the idea of V2G in the UK but the extra costs, the need for type2/CCS compatibility, the car makers supporting the tech and the still high 9-5 work week (not at home to charge on excess solar) make it a long way off here for home users. I can see it working with businesses with a high electric fleet sooner as thes cost can be claimed through the business, also the more vehicles in one location reducing costs so the payback period being shorter, we will see...
@alainleger8973
11 ай бұрын
Batteries on Wheels, how much more convenient!
@anitarozen6034
11 ай бұрын
Another very interesting video ,thanks Rosie . I am stuck deciding whether to buy an Ioniq 5 now ,with limited V2H , or wait for the bevy of cars to come ..
@ksairman
11 ай бұрын
Absolutely a win/win deal!
@paulrgab
10 ай бұрын
I wonder if any South Australian users of the Quasar 1 also have a Tesla PowerWall with a gateway? If the grid goes down, could the Quasar 1 keep on working, as it shouldn't see the grid being down.
@The18107j
10 ай бұрын
Unfortunately, the Quasar is not permitted to be on the backup circuit. The Quasar has the ability to output up to 7kW, whereas the Powerwall can only accept 5kW. This could overload the Powerwall. If you ignored safety regulations, and kept the output below 5kW, it could theoretically work.
@AK-vx4dy
11 ай бұрын
How much it reduces battery life ?
@russellhltn1396
11 ай бұрын
Prediction: Using this would shorten the car battery's life. As a result, car manufacturers may cancel any battery warranty due to excessive use.
@harmhoeks5996
4 ай бұрын
LFP 8000 cycles easy
@peterjohn5834
Ай бұрын
Rosie, grand presentation.
@tommclean7410
11 ай бұрын
Pretty cool when you can make money both when providing power AND when consuming it to charge!
@davidfellowes1628
11 ай бұрын
Thanks. A much needed report. In many countries regulatory issues are one major hold-up to change to V2G, but V2L & V2H can sidestep these issues.
@YungKnightBeatz-ez3zx
Ай бұрын
Zaptec . Lets go Zaptec Go 2!
@richard_wenner
11 ай бұрын
Aside:- Love the babe in arms during filming - you do seem to have life sorted :)
@londonwestman1
11 ай бұрын
Really interesting video. Might be useful to add what the safety issue with DIY V2G and V2H is. Namely that during a power cut there will be engineers working on the wires to reconnect them. They won't be expecting the house side of the system to be live, but with an unregulated home supply installation of any sort, that could make it live and hence very dangerous. And the other thing that's always at the back of my cynical mind in these discussions is the question of the true intentions of many grid operators. They often seem keen to discourage any kind of microgeneration contributing to the grid. I suspect them of wanting to keep supplying us for as long as possible and delay anything that involves them having to pay us more, or charge us less. It's my view that sluggishness on V2G is not actually so much down technical or safety considerations as it is the result of behind-the-scenes lobbying from the network operators.
@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ
11 ай бұрын
The safety aspect would be no different than a property having a grid-tied solar/wind/hydro/battery system. I completely agree with your 'cynical' thinking. I don't doubt there will be those keen to keep things the way they are for selfish reasons. Users running their own power systems means the decentralisation of, and independence from, the supply networks of power companies and their shareholders.
@The18107j
11 ай бұрын
The Quasar 1 will turn off if there is a power cut, while the Quasar 2 will have a switch that will disconnect the house from the grid so it can keep powering the house. All V2G chargers are required to follow the grid regulations before they are approved for installation.
@cammitchell5732
11 ай бұрын
Also for consideration, $25k to replace car battery, based on cycles. Home office users should know that V2G not able to instantly switch on in blackout, but some home battery systems can.
@nc3826
11 ай бұрын
Go ask NIO..... It uses battery swapping stations in the same manner, without degrading the battery packs....
@Andysfishing
11 ай бұрын
V2G sounds really interesting. I was an early adopter of solar with the feed in Tarif of 42c. But when that expires, I might try the V2G instead.
@paulrgab
10 ай бұрын
With the demise of the Wallbox Quasar 1, are there any other ChaDeMo V2G chargers available? I bought a second Nissan Leaf as it is V2G capable, and was waiting on wider availability and regulators to approve V2G chargers else where other than South Australia. I understand Wallbox wanting to move on and develop the Quasar 2, but as the Quasar 1 to my knowledge the only V2G charger approved anywhere in Australia, to me they have done themselves out many sales of the Quasar 1.
@The18107j
10 ай бұрын
The Quasar 2 will release initially with CCS only, and may (unconfirmed) have a CHAdeMO version released a year or 2 later. I'm not aware of any V2G chargers in development with planned CHAdeMO support. I'm still frustrated that Nissan is advertising the Leaf as "the only V2G compatible EV". It's a technically true statement that implies the opposite of what is actually happening.
@paulrgab
10 ай бұрын
@@The18107j I’m aware that others cars have V2G but nothing beats the price of a second hand Leaf.
@kotgc7987
6 ай бұрын
5:36 and 6:21 -kilowatts kW = power/strength of motor pushing; eg Tesla = 200-600 kW (~1000 Nm (newton metres), 5 Nm is finger tightening a screw) motors. -kilowatt-hours kWh = storage/amount. eg Tesla 75-100 kWh (~400-600 kms). -Can't wait until Tesla has V2G/V2H/V2L to make even more money than the solar feedback tariffs currently do!
@PekPiu
10 ай бұрын
Nice to have actual pricing too. But, haven't people ever heard of battery cycle counts? Yes, those are limited, and shuffling the batteries nightly is a real disaster for the battery life. Then again, in development countries (such as Australia seems to be on their sub-standard grid), having emergency power is nice, but that could be also dealt with using a 10 kW gasoline inverter. The separately and externally installed old car batteries could be a better solution to cycle until their death, but car batteries will loose the car value faster than one can say "cat".
@The18107j
10 ай бұрын
A recent study of 15,000 EVs showed that the battery will likely outlive the rest of the car. Battery technology has been improving every year, and the oldest of batteries (e.g. the 2012 Nissan Leaf) degrade much faster than any recently produced batteries. Most of the statistics that show fast degradation of car batteries are taken from these first generation cars, rather than extrapolating from newer car batteries. Batteries degrade over time anyway. I'd rather use a valuable resource that I own, than try to protect it and get minimal value from it.
@PekPiu
10 ай бұрын
@@The18107j Well, the top ev:s in production do still suffer battery cycle issues. And yes, I am talking about the models that retail about 100-150 k€, so not any old and/or low-end models. Again, disused old batteries can be good for a fixed personal energy storage, as its capacity is not too big of a deal. But having a car battery messed up, that does have a much bigger cost into it. I hope one day car batteries could have a much improved cycle counts, in real world, but that really is not yet there, despite what "the new great battery inventions" push at media few times a month.
@livingladolcevita7318
11 ай бұрын
Hi Rosie I was just wondering given the potential increase of charge/discharge, charge cycles on the car battery how, if at all, does this affect the longevity of the battery especially the lithium types. Good idea though.
@chrisschneider7609
11 ай бұрын
The usage of evs in v2g is small compared to driving them. Very little effect.
@petersmith8765
11 ай бұрын
$25000 for a solar system......i had a 9.5 klw with tina panels system installed from sunboost in townsville for $5600
@chrisdardis4794
11 ай бұрын
Very interesting vid Rosie, I had misunderstood that V2G was even available. Sadly the EV we have on order is not v2g capable, but will definitely be requirement of the next. (Wonderful to see your little one up and about too, nothing better than going to work with parents :) ).
@nc3826
11 ай бұрын
It could just require a software update, at some point to have that capability....
@glenandersson1114
11 ай бұрын
Quasar 2 will work with ccs
@chrisdardis4794
11 ай бұрын
Interesting, so that may work with the EX30@@glenandersson1114
@ladislavtoman9327
2 ай бұрын
Yep, until you need your vehicle to go to work or somewhere urgent and you find your vehicle's battery flat. Soooo smart! Can you really get any more demented?
@user-kc1tf7zm3b
8 ай бұрын
5:51 $52k for what is essentially a Nissan Pulsar EV? This is insane. And you wonder why Nissan only sells a paltry amount of Leafs. The Tesla Model 3 is a much better EV. 🇺🇸 🇨🇳
@MiniLuv-1984
11 ай бұрын
V2G At loooooong last! I guess I have to move to SA. VIC and other states may take years to catch up. It might be worthwhile repeating those numbers "...if all vehicles in Australia were electric with V2G then...." So bloody obvious and all held back by governments and energy providers. Makes me feel ill.
@jarthurs
9 ай бұрын
I'm running a V2H charger on the Indra trial, it's giving me 12kWh of storage from my 2014 Leaf. It's reduced my electricity cost by 22% in the 2 months it's been installed and that's during a Northern Hemisphere Winter, in the Summer it should mean we can managed for around 3-4 months of the year with minimal electricity import.
@LWJCarroll
11 ай бұрын
BYD Home Battery? I didn’t know they made those available? In New Zealand? Thanks. Laurie. 😊
@mjoelnir1899
7 ай бұрын
I know that Germany is rolling out vehicle to grid. The customers get paid for the use of the battery by the grid. You do not have to pay for the connector that manages the demand from the grid. Many standard wall boxes there do V2G and V2H. You can program at what times your battery has to be full or what percentage you will need. I live in Iceland and my car , a Skoda Enyaq, would work with V2G. The problem here is, that Iceland does not need more storage.
@ipmshop
11 ай бұрын
The concept of battery connection to the network (Vehicle To Grid) is very attractive. The network in dynamics understands the capacity and power of the total battery from all batteries of different types and form factors. This provides great opportunities.
@philrabe910
9 ай бұрын
I wonder where in California he saw this in action? Napa? I live on an island in the Bay with its own power company- they buy it from Giant Power Corp. But we have a lot of rooftop solar and a LOT of Teslas, and other makers EV's. I wonder if our island might try V2G...
@Cloxxki
11 ай бұрын
I love V2G and don't know why it's taken brands so long. However, there are things to consider. When an EV happens to catch fire, it takes along anything that's near. An EV in teh garage that's part of your house...might not be the best idea. Talk to your insurance whether you are fully covered for your car to burn down the whole house and cause physical harm. It's like vacc1n injury...how insured are you for that, really, if you take it voluntarily?
@martiruda
11 ай бұрын
Problem is: Quasar is extremely expensive. The gov needs to promote R&D and rollout local made V2G products
@stevegreen2839
10 ай бұрын
Not with my VW group EV. Manual says don't charge above 80% normally nor let it go below 40% when cold. V2G would be little use to me in winter.
@xxwookey
11 ай бұрын
5:36 (and 5:45) '40 kW' -> '40 kWh'. Why does everyone get this wrong? Full marks to Jai for getting it right.
@mintakan003
11 ай бұрын
V2L seems like a no brainer. Should be simple to implement. I don't see why every EV manufacturer don't do it. Yeah, I get that they don't want to put another piece of equipment, like an inverter, into the car. But one can have a DC output, and an optional external inverter. This could even be provided by 3rd party vendors. During an emergency, one can run a power cord to the car, and power some AC loads from the car. V2H is a bit more complicated. Need an electrician to meet code. V2G, feeding electricity back to the grid, is even more complicated. Requires "permission to operate". This happened even with my stationary solar and battery installation. And also to get credits on my electricity bill.
@tomreingold4024
11 ай бұрын
Very nice video. I'm in New York City. I've never heard of being paid to take electricity from the grid. Is that possible because the utility makes an excess? I like your regulations. We have a second home in a rural area, and the power company is allowed to charge us $20/month even when our net usage is negative. You have better deals in Australia.
@patrickdegenaar9495
11 ай бұрын
Yes and no! Car batteries will always be high performance devices optimised for weight and size, and therefire high cost. As such long term they can absolutely buffer the grid by charging overnight. But we would probably want to use cheap as chips batteries for home use and savecthose 3000 charge cycles to get 10-20 years use out of the car rather than 5 years.
@psychosis7325
11 ай бұрын
Concerns I have is that SA not too long ago was national news for solar feed in dropping to nothing and talks of taxing feed in, so while at the moment it looks ok for a few people I'm not sure this will be quite the same worthwhile longterm home investment as home solar. Charger/Inverter has to connect directly to the battery pack at high voltage which is going to continue to vary in size so costs will stay higher and ideally you want gan for service life but I see no mention of it on any pages I can find so $10k is a mighty price tag. Car battery packs are designed to give massive power and most profit trading energy is short periods but you can only feed about 10kw into the grid and I can see how the home owner does not have any capacity to compete in the market because of that. Also Nissan only covers their 40kwh battery for 100k miles which gives me about 30mwh through, how do they monitor and warranty when used in V2G and whats energy trade prices like? Is there any way lithium cells can be optimized for grid? As in cars are very high current capacity and I would think thats possibly not optimal for cycle life. How do grid scale batteries work and whats the service life and costs of the AC switching vs home scale and whats the costs environmental costs? As I assume by design you have to have some consumables on both sides. Also what about safety and home insurance? I assume is no extra cost now but a few V2G related fires may change that where having that grid scale its away from homes. What insurance covers you in the event there is a lithium fire during V2G? Could be liable for massive amounts and you're profiting of it and that could get real messy.
@ecospider5
11 ай бұрын
I want V2H that works with the power out and will activate my solar micro inverters. We will see how long that takes in Washington state. Currently I put a 12v to 120v inverter on my leaf to run my fridge during a power outage.
@lucidmoses
11 ай бұрын
V2G makes no sense to me. Tesla says their battery is good for 1500 charge cycles. If you cycle your battery every day to supply the grid then your killing he battery in 4-5 years. What a waste.
@tommyjakobsen5504
11 ай бұрын
V2G is NOT the best way, because you sent the Power to the Grid, not to your house. that WHY for house with solar system installed will have much better benefit with a V2H inverter.
@grahamkearnon6682
11 ай бұрын
You would think that governments would be promoting the V2 system as a way to delay needing to upgrade/build infrastructure but, I guess the real energy bosses feel their old ways still rule.
@haddow777
8 ай бұрын
It seems to me that this actually makes a better case against electric cars. One of these cars contains enough power to run a house or small business. What that also says is that we regularly consume an entire house or small businesses worth of power to travel around a bit. Considering how drasticly we need to cut back on greenhouse emissions in such a short time to stave off even worse consequences due to climate change, we are all going to have to wake up soon to the reality that we waste huge amounts of energy. We don't have the time, the money, or the resources to try and hold onto an unrealistic way of life burilning millions of years of concentrated sunlight in the form of oil has afforded us. Not when there are far better solutions so easily adapted at hand. A little change to city design here and a massive investment into public transit infrastructure there and we could quickly reduce our energy consumption by a significant amount. I know many will make claims about how much efficient and how much green energy generation and blah, blah, blah. Even if you take the cars out of the equation, you still have roads and parking lots. More than half of many cities are made up of roads and parking lots. The building and maintaining of both contribute significantly to greenhouse emissions and heat absorption. More the force cities to stretch their services over greater distances. Those sewer pipes, water pipes, electrical lines, etc all have to stretch past the parking lot to get to the buildings using them. This adds a lot of cost and resource usage to build them. We could never get rid of all roads and parking lots, but we cohld dramatically reduce them. We don't need new tech as much as we need a new perspective.
@hypothebai4634
11 ай бұрын
So the battery in a car is the most expensive battery (both in net dollars and $ / kWh) that an individual will ever buy. Using that battery for any purpose other than to provide transportation makes no sense at all. It is far better to dedicate a cheaper battery, say a Vanadium Flow battery, to provide power to the grid.
@lmoned
11 ай бұрын
Although I wish that this stuff had a meaning for a more sustainable future as it is sold. Its just more consumption for the rich exclusive set Yay, lets spend public money and force poor people to pay for infrastructure that only the meritoriously wealthy can use.
@addestensfors8425
11 ай бұрын
If you charge during the day, discharge during evening and night do you drive your ICE to work or do you go??? Isn't it way better ( and cheaper) to buy batteries instead of buyng ev to use it as a battery???
@nightpups5835
11 ай бұрын
my big ? for V2G is the cost of increased battery wear. guess if it pays for the car after 5-6 years that wouldn't be a concern at all because at that point it's full paid so the fractional cost is already covered.
@honumoorea873
11 ай бұрын
Lol, thinking without including limitations always lead to dumb dreams.
@domlarry
6 ай бұрын
Great idea and very cool But why would.you spend all that money Prices for this tech will drop over time
@cmk353
11 ай бұрын
Wireless vehicle charging could make this more practical feasible and convenient not having to plug in and out all the time.
@simonpannett8810
11 ай бұрын
No mention of Teslas? Do you know their capabilities??
@shortbuslife3440
11 ай бұрын
As someone who is interested in living off grid, in UK it can be cheaper to build a house without a grid connection so V2H sounds like a great idea, this would then reduce the size of batteries required to power the home but it must be useable without a grid connection, the added bonus is if you do have a prolonged power cut you can drive your battery to a charging station that is working so you have more power for your home.
@mrbizi5652
11 ай бұрын
I like the idea of self sufficiency but what about battery lifespan degradation or lack of range for EV as the use of battery for grid applications shortens useful life of battery? Have batts improved enough now that they can better handle frequent charge/discharge required for V2G?
@NeblogaiLT
11 ай бұрын
This depends on specific battery chemistry. For example, current LMFP, and high nickel batteries last 1400-2000 cycles, and will only improve to 2000-3000 cycles by 2030, so will never be ideal for daily discharging. For VtG, you probably want the car battery to last ~5000 cycles, which would allow a daily discharge for ~13,7 years. For that, LFP batteries are becoming popular for cars, and those can already do ~5000 cycles, and are planned to be capable of ~7500 cycles by 2025, and ~10000 by 2030. Also, sodium batteries are entering cheap car market, and those (Ion Layered Oxide variation) should improve from 3000 cycles today to ~5000 by 2030. Then there is PBA variation, which is less energy dense, so better for home batteries and maybe very cheap EVs- those also last 5000 cycles today, with expectations for 8000 cycles by 2025, and 11000 by 2030. (info from 'The Limiting Factor' channel).
@tomas_klouda
10 ай бұрын
@@NeblogaiLT All those cycle numbers look like at least 90% DoD (Depth of Discharge). But every Li-Ion based chemistry can handle a lot more cycles when you reduce the DoD. And I am talking about difference like 90% DoD = 1400 cycles, while 20% DoD = 10000+ cycles. If you combine this fact with the simple reality of the vehicle you would like to use not just for V2G, but also for daily driving, it makes perfect sense to only limit your V2G use to something between 20 and 40% of DoD and then you basically don't care at all as even current chemistry can handle thousands of such cycles without measurable effect on the battery wear. To still get interesting capacity that way, you need a vehicle with larger battery, but we are already closing to 60kWh as the norm and with that we are talking about 10-25kWh of usable capacity for V2G basically for free. That is definitely interesting proposition as it is usually at least as much as you have for PV system so it would at least double or more often triple your energy storage capacity.
@NeblogaiLT
10 ай бұрын
@@tomas_klouda Thinking of it, you are probably right. Most users will probably be limited by their grid connection anyway, and will only be able to offload 20kWh or so during peak hours. Only for daily charging full at night, and selling it all at daytime, LiFePO is needed.
@tomas_klouda
10 ай бұрын
@@NeblogaiLT yep, for high DoD you currently want LFP. But it will still limit the usability of the car for driving. If you usually drive around 20-50km for daily errands with occasional 100km, you can set it to cycle between 50-80% SOC and don't care what state it is in when you would want to hit the road. You will always have enough energy in the battery even for longer trip with a 60+ kWh car battery.
@jasonjohnson3393
6 ай бұрын
Gee renewable energy just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper hey Rosie?!
@waynecartwright-js8tw
11 ай бұрын
Use our Hyundai Ioniq 5 for V2L at home as its storing our surplus PV
@AlainODea
11 ай бұрын
Great video, Rosie. I am really hoping V2G becomes a more standard part of grids and EVs in the coming years. Too good a mutual benefit to turn down I think.
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