Personal idea: Orcs may go to the Halls of Mandos for judgement. From there, if judged redeemable, they stay for healing and eventual reincarnation. If not redeemable, they may either go with the evil men or are maybe thrown out the gate to stay with Morgoth.
@ecthelion1735
Жыл бұрын
Interesting idea, but that is predicated on the notion that orcs have 'Fëar'. While they clearly have some autonomy, they are also very clearly subject to other wills. This mechanistic behaviour lends credence to the theory that they do not, in fact, have free wills and spirits as such.
@PhineasPhule
3 жыл бұрын
Once again, well presented, sir. Another aspect of the Gift of Men is that Men's lives and destinies are not 'predetermined' to the same extent as those of the Elves, for whom the Great Music 'is as fate'.(edit) Death and leaving Arda was part of Iluvatar's design for the Atani from the start, so there was no 'immortality' to lose.
@radagast7200
3 жыл бұрын
Leaf by Niggle is how I imagine the Halls of Mandos work.
@flakbait5771
3 жыл бұрын
Geeze the dwarven reincarnation thing would be awful RE- the sheer pressure to perform. "What's wrong, Durin XII? Why aren't you performing as well as your previous 11 incarnations?" x D
@Nighthawkinlight
3 жыл бұрын
You should add the https to your Patreon link in the video description so it's clickable. I thought you must no longer have an account after coming from your old videos to newer ones and not seeing it among the blue highlighted links in the description (apparently I'm not a careful reader). The link would also be better if clickable because you can't select and copy text in a video description on the mobile app. I had to pull up Patreon and search for your account.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Huh, I would have thought it would automatically be clickable. I’ll have to take a look, but it’s also a clickable element at the end of my videos so you can click that :)
@Nighthawkinlight
3 жыл бұрын
I saw that come up in this video for the first time also. I guess I'm doubly blind, but I got there eventually. I've been listening to your videos more than watching them so that's probably half my problem.
@TJDious
3 жыл бұрын
Where do Tolkien's Elves go when they die They travel out to Aman o'er the Western sky They hang out with the Valar and those Maia guys You might see them again if that's what they decide
@Arcvein
3 жыл бұрын
Just recently found your channel, and am really enjoying it. Awesome work, mate!
@oliveremmettknox7776
3 жыл бұрын
The elves' spirits go to the halls of Mandos where Mandos (God of Death) judges them and decides their fate in which the elves' spirit may or may not be reincarnated. Mandos is Tolkien's version of Hades in Middle Earth.
@TheMarcHicks
3 жыл бұрын
Orcs cannot be corrupted men. Orcs were fighting the Elves.well before the rising of the Sun and the Moon, which is when Men Awoke into the world.
@jika327
3 жыл бұрын
AFAIK, in Tolkien's later or unfinished drafts, Men would have awoken much sooner (at the same time as Elves?) and the Sun and the Moon were original light sources.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Right, he was toying with the timeline as he was working out the idea to make it fit.
@raydavison4288
3 жыл бұрын
Tolkien specifically said that the 1st orcs were corrupted elves. However, men could have been made into orcs later on after their awakening.
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
@@raydavison4288 yeah, if you did a genetic test on an orc you would probally find ancestry of every people. Orc 1.0 was from elves. Orc 2.0 had some derivative from Men and maybe even dwarves. As every people appeared on the scene Morgoth would twist some to his purpose.
@benbrown8258
3 жыл бұрын
Children of elves and Men, the half-elven are given a choice of mortality and afterlife. What if Orcs are an experiment Gone Wrong by melkor of corrupted elves and Men or whatever kelvar was around? Kelvar as far as we know don't have immortality. Therefore I would not picture an elf kelvar hybrid having immortality. Elves and chimpanzees for example. That definitely would be a corruption. And of course it's only conjecture and a guess. Who knows.? Tolkien wasn't convinced how to work it out. Galadriel does mention that she would see Treebeard and female ents in a possible future. Of course maybe she's merely talking about the maiar aspect of ents.
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
Actually Tolkien did mention the orc after life. I think it was in the Silmarillion but im not sure. It stated that orcs souls go to Mandos for judgement but some refuse to go and wander the earth manifesting in ghostlike or demonic ways. Somewhere else i cant remember and if i ever find it Ill point you to it. he wrote about evil ghosts attempting to steal the body of infants at birth to live again.
@stillhuntre55
3 жыл бұрын
Binge watching all your videos right now! Terrific content! I'm one of those people that loves the concepts and characters and messages of the world that Tolkien created - but find his writing style difficult. I am learning so much about his incredible world through your videos! Thank you so much!
@PleaseNThankYou
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent topic, namarië, Mellon nin! Let your friend know they have eased a quandary.
@TicTocRobotSnot
3 жыл бұрын
Fascinating topic. Well covered.
@miykaelyisrael4423
3 жыл бұрын
for the eternal state of orcs... it seems simple... if they are corrupted elves then they would not lose their immortality per se... they would simply sit for the entirety of eä in the halls of mandos for two reasons... first because they lived such evil lives that it would take that long to be rehabilitated... but mostly because their lives as orcs were so terrible that they never want to return... they find it peaceful to rest in the halls of mandos in a state of healing for the rest of their existence... this allowed for the sake of Mercy.
@aesir1ases64
2 жыл бұрын
good points
@dr.k1012
3 жыл бұрын
All I could think about after hearing the patron name: Deidara of Sunagakure 😅 fandom collision
@michaelogrady232
5 ай бұрын
Life in Tolkien's universe is The Flame Imperishable. Imperishable being the operative word.
@therealchiamac
Жыл бұрын
At least to me, after watching your take on this and some others, it comes down to how each are meant to worship Eru Ilúvatar (God). Elves are meant to do this in their lived life, they are basically at their final state and get reborn into that state. They want to live in the undying lands because there they can go worship (live life) for as long as they are asked or permitted to by God. I would also maybe go so far to argue that they are constantly held in a state of purgatory in the undying lands, because they never move on from it to be closer to God. Men obviously don't have the long life, and are meant to worship God after they die. That's why they don't get reborn, and go on to be even closer to God than elves after a stint in the Halls of Mandos (purgatory if you will). In setting up the lore, and within the stories we see these two forms or worship explored. Men start to envy the elves, even though they will end up receiving something greater in death than the elves ever have. Readers, likewise, envy the elves because it's common to want to live forever and in general who doesn't think that's a great idea. Where, at least my take on it, I feel sorry for the elves since they are sentenced to be stuck in a living body and won't be as close to God as man. I think, and I'm not a great Bible or Tolkien mind, that the above was being explored and then the rest of the lore and requirement for the lore started to muddy that up. I can also start to see Revelation 5:13 in a lot of this: "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!". I'm just not studied enough about either to go into it more in depth, but I can see him create lore where all creatures pay respect to God, in their own way. Anyway that's my .02 Thanks for the video!
@Jackrabbit9961
3 жыл бұрын
so what happened to Maglor? Did he fade to spirit or did he walk the shores evermore? also why did Tolkien not make the elven rings line up with the silmarils? The 3 silmarils ended up in Air, water, and fire and the 3 rings come close with fire and air but adamant instead of water or is it known as the ring of water? Did you ever do a video on Galadriel's role in the first age? I think alot miss why it was a big deal for her to sail to the west at the end of the LOTR.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
The ring of Adamant is the ring of water-Adamant is just the stone. My suspicion is Maglor faded. And I did a video on Galadriel, actually, and I’m pretty sure I covered her activities in all three ages: kzitem.info/news/bejne/uW6ZmWeVqoaCkno
@Sportsfilmappreciator
3 жыл бұрын
You got so much knowledge and love ur topics but you can do so much more with your channel! Music? Images or videos?
@zrocks2001
Жыл бұрын
interesting good job 👍
@szymonrozanski6938
Жыл бұрын
I actually prefer Orcs origin of Elfs being corrupted. In a sense that Elfs souls got corrupted, they would still be immortal but because of the corruption the Valar dont want to put them back into mortal bodies. And because of that corruption of the soul, Morgoth breeded them with Humans, spawning Orcs as a corrupted offspring of Man and Elf. Because Uruk-Hai are Orcs who breeded with humans, making obviously them part of the same species/family . If Elfs and Humans breed we get the Half-Elfs. But if a Corrupted Elf and Human breed we get Orcs.
@bracksampson1
3 жыл бұрын
I bet that middle earth map has gotten you mad sniz player. Rock on home skillet, love your vids
@tom_curtis
3 жыл бұрын
Re: elves. I would find it very surprising to find out that the Catholic Tolkien said that his elves were reborn, unless there was very clear indications of that in his letters or writing. I certainly believe, on the other hand, that he believed elves could be reincarnated - literally, given flesh again. This process, however, should be thought of as more akin to the way the Valar and Maiar can put on, and take of bodies more or less as a form of clothing (unless purposely diminished for a particular mission as with the Istari; or corrupted by long rebellion against the Valar and Illuvatar, as with Sauron at the end). Alternatively, it can be viewed as a converse of the long slow process by which elves loose their connection to their bodies and become pure spirits that Tolkien mentions. Thus, Glorfindel, probably with the aid of one or more of of the Valar, likely became exited the Halls of Mandos as an adult elf in a recreation of his former body; rather than being reborn as in infant IMO.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
This is another area where Tolkien kind of went back and forth and sadly never left a definitive answer.
@Sletty73
3 жыл бұрын
Are you sure that Ents are Maiar? I have some arguments against it. First, Tolkien specifically said that probably ent-wifes died. It is also mentioned that some ents died when fighting against Saruman. OK, they might die in the same manner as Gandalf died, except that they are not sent back to Middle Earth. However, there is also an evidence that Ents did not exist originally: if I remember correctly, Manwe assures Yawanna that the Ents (named as "Tree Sheperds", correct?) will protect the forests. It is narrated as Yavanna did not know about the Ents, so they were a "new thing". Unless there is evidence that new Maiar can be created by Eru during the course of the Ea time, but that would be strange. If I remember correctly, it is said in the Ainulindale that the Valar were all created outside of Ea, and time was co-created with Ea. So, Ents as Maiar shall exist when Yavanna and Manwe and Aule also existed, but it seems not to be the case. Regarding the Eagles, the situation is different I guess, they are mentioned as Manwe's maiar.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Yavanna didn’t know about the Ents clearly in the same way that most Valar didn’t have clear memories of every part of the music. The Maiar inhabiting the Ents could have been late comers to Arda like Tulkas.
@TheDarthbinky
3 жыл бұрын
"Regarding the Eagles, the situation is different I guess, they are mentioned as Manwe's maiar." My understanding is that that was what JRRT initially intended. However, he later realized that he goofed, much as he did with the Glorfindel situation. Since Gwaihir (and his brother) was stated to be Thorondor's child and Maiar don't reproduce (Melian looks around nervously...), he changed his mind and decided that the eagles were just regular animals that had been "upgraded" by the Valar. Christopher Tolkien talked about it in one of the later books like Ring of Morgoth or something. I forget exactly which one.
@kintire
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast I'm still not sure. Ents don't behave like Maiar. They are physical creatures who reproduce, and do not return when there body is killed. Also, they love Elves because the Elves taught them to speak. Would Maiar need to be taught to speak? They seem much more like another order of being. And they themselves don't think they are Maiar: they list themselves firmly among the mortal races: Learn now the Lore of Living Creatures! First name the four, the free peoples: Eldest of all, the elf-children; Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses; Ent the earthborn, old as mountains; Man the mortal, master of horses.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Fair point. But that would seem to make them children of Iluvatar, which they aren’t (at least not explicitly).
@kintire
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast another area Tolkien deliberately left vague, like Bombadil perhaps?
@I_Am_Bowi
Жыл бұрын
Do we know what happened to the spirit of Durin’s Bane? Did it flee? Did it repent?
@TolkienLorePodcast
Жыл бұрын
No clue.
@tominiowa2513
3 жыл бұрын
What happens to various Maiar such as Sauron, Saruman, the Balrogs, etc. after they are killed? Do they just wander Middle Earth in the realm of the Unseen as powerless spirits unless the end of Arda? Will they have a chance at redemption and participating in the new music, completely vanish, or continue on in limbo beyond the Door of Night at the end of Arda? Similarly what is the final fate of Melkor/Morgoth after Turin kills him at the end of the Dagor Dagorath?
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
It’s not really clear what happens to them. Though the fact that it says Turin kills Morgoth seems to imply he has an end.
@rmsgrey
3 жыл бұрын
We know that Sauron died several times, each time losing part of his ability to clothe himself in forms of flesh, though it does also appear that Eru (and possibly the Valar) can restore "lost" forms (as happened to Gandalf) - or possibly the loss of forms is only a problem for those of the Ainur who have "fallen" in some way - Morgoth and Sauron each gained power over the physical world by investing a portion of themselves into it, and that investment may have limited their ability to renew their forms. So it's possible that Morgoth and the fallen Maiar simply exhaust their ability to adopt forms that allow them to interact with the world, and are stuck as pure ghosts, able to perceive, but not to act; or they could truly cease to be - their essence dispersing to a point where they're no longer able to sustain consciousness (which may be what happens to Sauron at the end).
@RachaelMarieNewport
3 жыл бұрын
Elros ruled for 410 years and lived for 500.
@diamondskull0739
3 жыл бұрын
can you maybe make a video about continents other than Aman and Middle-earth? no one ever talks about them.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
That’s because we know next to nothing about them lol
@diamondskull0739
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast yeah, but id be fun to speculate. the can't be the only ones with life on'em
@dragonhelmofdor-lomin4017
3 жыл бұрын
Couldn't Orcs be both corrupted Elves and Men since both races are the Children of Ilúvatar and Tolkien said that Elves and Men are biologically the same species. Maybe the first Orcs were corrupted Elves, and later Melkor did the same thing with Men when he found out they have awakened, there is no reason he can't do both, and its also more consistent with the timeline.
@earlofdoncaster5018
3 жыл бұрын
There are other sentient creatures: Mirkwood-spiders and wolves.
@tehwatcherintehwater2022
3 жыл бұрын
Where do the Nameless Things go when/if they die?
@aaronstacey1494
3 жыл бұрын
What difference is there between goblins and hob goblins
@MS-ho9wq
Жыл бұрын
What about goblins? Maybe they all become possumssss!
@Steven_Edwards
3 жыл бұрын
Dragon's and Trolls, you didn't really get in to their lives or after life.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Trolls I suspect aren’t “alive.” Dragons are Maiar.
@deanwilson7373
3 жыл бұрын
...don't forget about the forgettable Stone Giants.
@Caleb_Evans32
3 жыл бұрын
But how could orcs be men if there were orcs before the awakening of men?
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Tolkien was simultaneously considering a reworking of the chronology.
@Caleb_Evans32
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thanks for responding and I don't meant to tell you your buisness but I think all the changes Tolkien made or considered would make an interesting video or maybe a series.
@OhGreatSwami
3 жыл бұрын
Arthrabêth?
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Athrabeth. It’s in Morgoth’s Ring.
@willot4237
3 жыл бұрын
Is Mandos pronouned MONdos? always thought it was MANdos???
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
In elvish words the a’s are pronounced as in father.
@yogurtfluff1
3 жыл бұрын
Would it be fair to say that Elves are only biologically immortal (they can only die of physical trauma and not of natural causes) and are capable of reincarnation?
@caos1925
2 жыл бұрын
the way reincarnation in tolkien works has always struck me as odd. like can an elf be born again of their own child then? Somehow you are someones son and father?
@KingTairun
Жыл бұрын
The entire Tolkienverse is one giant a**kissing of elves how great they are, as if they are privileged race. Elves are going to reborn after they die again yet they don't help nobody? They are described as noble only by the authors description not by their own deeds.
Пікірлер: 72