Great Insights Alex! One thing to keep in mind is the Direct to Consumer model (which bypasses the Wholesale/Retail model) carries much larger marketing costs. Whether it's KS or post-campaign e-commerce, this cost of acquisition can range from 10% - 30%. Keep up the great work!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Excellent point! Didn't even think of this, although I should have known. Pinning for visibility.
@doggosplosion
4 жыл бұрын
There is another piece that companies gain in marketing for judging market share. Before he retired, Stephen Buonocore from Stronghold Games (Indie Boards and Cards) said the marketing data the company gets from KS was more valuable than the 10% that KS takes off the top. I believe it is "The Secret Cabal Podcast" that mention this in their special episode with Stephen. Based upon how large you already are, and how much hype can be generated in other board game channels the KS itself can be its own marketing engine, as there is already a community that does nothing but look at KS releases.
@FCL70
4 жыл бұрын
I would note that many of the KS projects request backers to promote the project on social media - so that's free. And the backers are incentivized by any project with stretch goals so they can get 'more stuff'. I'm uncertain what % of the total marketing that would be, but still zero cost to the project itself.
@Richard-sy1ej
4 жыл бұрын
@@FCL70 Yeah, but how many backers actually do anything to promote the projects. I've never done any social media promotion for things. The only "promotion" I've done is to friends, who aren't going to buy the game anyway because *I'm* buying it.
@yotodine
4 жыл бұрын
Please stop supporting patreon!
@JeffCBeck
4 жыл бұрын
Very tiny publisher here - thought I would chime in on this fantastic conversation. For us, we use nearly 100% of any "profit" earned on Kickstarter to print game copies above the Kickstarter fulfillment level. Our actual profit (the stuff we take home to keep food on the table, etc) primarily comes from selling those extra games. So, at least from where we are coming from, we are giving as good a deal to backers as we possibly can afford. We don't look at Kickstarter as a profit center so much as an opportunity to print new games. Now, to your point, much larger publishers who are on Kickstarter probably don't need to work that way. They (hopefully) have enough money in the bank to do a print run, regardless of how much money they earn during their campaign. That said, I'm happy they don't slash prices 30-40% on their campaigns, as that would make our campaigns pail by comparison in value. So, like you said, it's a fine line. We obviously want to reward our backers for helping us make the game in the first place. But we can't go so far that the numbers just don't work out. Anyhow - great video. Really enjoy the channel. Keep it up!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for jumping in! And yes, that line is definitely fine. KS as a whole is still doing well, so it's working....but it's also relying on a lot of fomo which may not be sustainable in the long run.
@motog4221
4 жыл бұрын
Spot on
@vishallan
3 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo agreed
@joeferreti9442
4 жыл бұрын
My impression is that the reason that Kickstarter games aren't a good deal anymore is that too many people blindly back too many KS projects that don't offer a good deal. Thanks that you try to do something about it by making your videos.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
💯 a part of it. That's why I spent the most time on the 4th reason, on us backing games that don't give us a reason to do so.
@ScytheNoire
4 жыл бұрын
This is really hitting on a problem I'm having with Kickstarter. Take away games from tiny publishers, or individuals, who are just trying to get a game made. Those are not going to have the greatest value, but you are usually backing because you find the game interesting, want to see it made, and it won't be available at retail most likely. Those are more of what Kickstarter was originally meant for. But then I see a game from a well established publisher, say AEG, and their Kickstarter for a much hyped, and what does look to be a great game, Dead Reckoning. The cost of that game doesn't seem to be a great value. The islands aren't dual-layer, even though they could really use it. Metal coins cost extra, and are not cheap. There is nothing deluxe, or special, about the Kickstarter. They claim it won't be coming to retail, yet they slap MSRP on everything to make it seem like you are getting a good deal. Other than the fact it looks like a great game, and they are tossing in an "expansion", also known as cut content to allow them to charge more (see video game industry practices), the game is not great value. Compare that to what you get from a smaller publisher, games such as The Age of Atlantis or The Dwellings of Everdale, and you can see how drastically different they are. You can see the value in those, the deluxe versions you will be getting. You know those deluxe versions won't be coming to retail, it just wouldn't be financially viable at the price you paid when you factor in the extra channels. This makes me feel like the bigger publisher is doing the Kickstarter just to pocket more money for themselves (which is fine), whereas those other smaller publishers are giving us something special, more than we'd get at retail for the same price.
@PsiNorm
4 жыл бұрын
You had me until you used AEG's card crafting games as an example. Those are expensive games to make and are not coming to retail. The only way these games come out is through Kickstarter. Those games are what Kickstarter is for. Now if you pointed to games like Isle of Cats, I'm behind you 100%. The support tier being higher than what the game will sell for when it comes to retail is unacceptable. I now use the "will it come to retail?" question to decide if I back it or wait for the game to be available cheaper at retail.
@NorthOf60Gaming
4 жыл бұрын
I really like to see passion from the publisher/designers I have backed games on occasion not so much because of the value proposition but because the small guys really bust a gut trying to get their game made, Jack Spoerner and his Dungeon of Infinity which crawls slowly towards production. He had so much heart, I actually took two copies as did a number of other backers to make it happen for him. Wes Woodbury is another small designer who pushed his Legends of Novus game. There are some good examples of two designers that used KS for the purpose it was designed for.
@PondoSinatra680
4 жыл бұрын
If FFG started using KS, your head would explode. You would not be making excuses for them. I’m a fan of AEG too but I don’t think they need to use KS to get their games made. They never used to. I’ve played and bought Thunderstone since their first version. Now I’m waiting for their 3rd TS KS to ship.
@NorthOf60Gaming
4 жыл бұрын
@@PondoSinatra680 I agree, CMON does not need to do this, Gamelyn games, Steve Jackson, all successful game publishers do not need the help of KS. I to am waiting for the 3rd TS KS to ship to. KS has a lot of psychological elements to what it does, it is not just about the money, as people as you can see are willing to pay more for a game. Having done some work in "gamification" KS does a good job of using elements that appeal to people to make the decision easier to back.
@eelexa
4 жыл бұрын
@@PsiNorm Wow, is that what happened with Isle of Cats? I'm new to the whole Kickstarter board games thing, and I'm super cautious about supporting any because of things like that. Also, with all these huge companies, it seems obvious they don't need to use Kickstarter for this when they've got capital to work with already. So yeah, if they're gonna use KS there better be some shiny extras for lower prices. For someone like me, who's new to KS for board games, this dilemma makes it hard to commit to backing anything. I definitely feel the FOMO, but I also want to only back things that offer exclusives or won't be coming to retail. Some way to find small publishers that need backing would be handy.
@lotusmoon2744
4 жыл бұрын
Great video man! I'm glad you made this to bring more awareness to this topic of value. One thing I am surprised you didn't mention, besides of course judging the value of a game if you should give a publisher money now or not on KS and if it's a good deal when you factor in shipping and how much the game will be at retail, you have to also factor in the time your money is being tied up as an investment. Especially now with covid going on and everything being pushed back, shipping being higher now, and the cost of games going up with "all in pledges" with things like sundrop and extras and what not, adds up into hundreds of dollars per KS very quickly. The more kickstarters you back, a person could have thousands of dollars tied up waiting for deliveries. So I do feel that it's crucial that the publisher has to provide a very good value for your money when you look at it like you're giving them a 0% interest loan in hopes you'll get your game in a timely manner and that it was worth your time waiting for sometimes years. Also one thing I have been wondering about is the 1$ back option to get into a pledge manager. This is becoming more and more common and this gives even more money into the publishers pockets since it also removes the 10% or whatever KS takes from the project right? Is this having any effect on KS relations with creators? As a backer, I use this often especially when I'm not sure on a project, and ultimately lesses the time my money is tied up to spend on other things. Also it gives time for the backer to see things like how production and testing of the game is going which sometimes reveal red flags as to not give any more money than the 1$ placeholder. Anyway if you actually read this long comment you're a legend, sorry if it kinda rambled on. Keep up the great content!
@michaelb8111
4 жыл бұрын
I read, I am Legend! HaHa. I agree with your point. I am loaning them my money,and I expect something in return. Opportunity cost brother!
@benlauson555
4 жыл бұрын
@@michaelb8111 Your not loaning them your money - that would imply some legal accountability, you are giving them your money... Obviously in hopes of a product or service in return. There is no guarantee that you will get the advertised product or service, nor is there the slightest requirement for reimbursement of funds if things don't work out. You are giving a company money free of any real contractual agreement. They can do what ever they want with it.
@chadparker7087
4 жыл бұрын
I seriously don't know how you do what you do. You have a job. A wife. Several kids (think 4, +/- 1), and you not only make the videos that I love to watch, but you find time to play games too! Not only do you make the videos, but I feel that they are quality videos. You are animated, informative, you make your videos convenient with the time stamps, and you make a LOT of videos . Keep up the great work, man. I love what you do
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Caffeine and little sleep :) But thank you!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Sorry this video was a bit late! I made the mistake of making an edit within KZitem....and it got locked up for an hour while processing. Lesson learned.
@KyawThurein
4 жыл бұрын
"Why are so many companies on Kickstarter barely giving you a reason to back?" ... +1
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep :(
@carloscnd1774
4 жыл бұрын
Because people back anyway. They don't need a reason while we keep backing.
@BoxOfFear
4 жыл бұрын
Exactly. Because there’s so much Kickstarter momentum right now, that any decently produced campaign will succeed, no question. That’s all it takes.
@noeldillabough
4 жыл бұрын
I spend WAY MORE on Kickstarter than on a game I order from retail, even including my pimping up costs (which are substantial) the "all in" pledge is a killer! My biggest problem is I forget about games I pledged, then this GIGANTIC box arrives and I have to figure out where its going to go...
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
That's my favorite part! Backing a game, forgetting, and then having random birthday presents show up throughout the year :)
@drewteo
4 жыл бұрын
I just knew about KS this year, before i knew about your channel, i backed every KS game that i like without considering the difference between retail and KS price, i just went All in for everything due to FOMO, not only adding the expansions but i did the add on such as the sleeves, play mat, art book, dice tower and whatever not. What you said in your videos make sense, and i learn a lot of from you, so thanks for that.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Greatly appreciate it!
@markswitzer374
4 жыл бұрын
BoardGameCo is my new favorite youtube board game channel. I don't know why. Maybe just his cool, easy to listen to voice, his emphatically- but kindly- stated opinions, his knowledge. Just entertaining and informative, and watching removes the stress in my day. Thanks!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Next video....ASMR content. But seriously thank you.
@markswitzer374
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo - ASMR! Ha ha!
@techinthehead
3 жыл бұрын
The theory of protecting MSRP is a thing in general retail but it also works in reverse. Santorini was on kickstarter for full price and later was selling for 12 dollars at major retailers. That soured the whole kick starter experience and haven't bought one since. Kickstarter has an early adopters tax once a game goes to retail.
@elijaht.wreckingball5532
2 жыл бұрын
Terrific video. Very insightful. I hereby vow to watch every one of your "to back or not to back" videos from now on.
@BoardGameCo
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you :-)
@SirGoldeneyes
4 жыл бұрын
I came across your channel a couple of weeks ago and I am just impressed at the quality of your videos, they way you critique games and Kickstarters are really fair. Thank you!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@dumas8112
4 жыл бұрын
I always appreciate when a KS subsidizes shipping. This protects MSRP, but is a measurable benefit for the consumer. The extras are definitely greatly appreciated, but not at the expense of proper game play.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yes, that's an excellent point. They should really consider that as a way of not hurting the value but adding value.
@stephenrynerson5530
4 жыл бұрын
My two cents is that I back games on Kickstarter primarily for guaranteed access rather than gambling that I will ever be available to get the game at retail before it sells out and second-hand copies start going for a 50% premium over even the KS price.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Totally agree...or 98% agree.
@djsatan
4 жыл бұрын
Very guilty of FoMO is why I appreciate your work as it put's some of my impulse purchases in check! One thing I was surprised you didn't really cover for benefit for the creator was we are helping to cover their production costs as well with essentially a zero interest loan and also a what are we going to do if they don't pay (deliver) on time vs a bank loan?
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Good point. I don't cover that only because I don't think of it.....I don't even touch any KS that I believe is a risk and fortunately I've yet to be burnt yet. I should cover it..don't get me wrong.
@vegastar558
4 жыл бұрын
New to board games, however I have launched a couple of Kickstarter projects (to publish books). A couple of things to keep in mind: small companies and individuals aren't going to print in as big a volume as big companies, which means that the cost for each item is more expensive. Secondly, shipping is surprisingly expensive, especially if you're doing international shipping. Also, if you raise about $10,000, you're going to have to pay taxes on that. Now, maybe big companies are overcharging for their games (in which case, don't back it), but I find that it's impossible to make a profit on Kickstarter. I use Kickstarter so I don't have to ask for a bank loan for my projects.
@petergross7235
4 жыл бұрын
Very accurate evaluation. We're going to keep seeing less value if we keep throwing money at games because of our fomo. "Would I pay this price in the game store?" Is the first thing I always ask myself before I back a KS thanks to you.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, I need to remind myself too.
@zakkoehler6820
4 жыл бұрын
Kickstarter prices are slowly creeping up, that CMON Game that was $90 is now $120 not to mention all the crazy add-ons.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
In many cases yes. But still the best deal out there in general.
@Richard-sy1ej
4 жыл бұрын
I managed to get a copy of Rum and Bones second tide at a FLGS last year. Now there's only a handful of copies online, and as for expansions... well, good luck. It's a fun game with great minis, and if you didn't get it on kickstarter, you're now essentially not able to get it. People who bought an all-in pledge can sell it for way more than they paid for it. Heck, even Blood Rage, which still pops up in stores, goes almost instantly when I see it on second-hand local trading markets. I decided I wanted it a few months ago, and I've still not been able to get my hands on a copy.
@defiantj975
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah that's what's become really annoying. What used to be free stretch goals are now 20,30 maybe even $50 add ons!!!!
@stephendavis7327
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, $100-120+shipping and add-ons...lucky to complete a pm for less than $250.
@arcubal
4 жыл бұрын
The 'holy trifecta' of KS games: sooner delivery, cheaper game, more stuff fell apart a few years ago. Now a) publishers push their game to retail/cons so, combined with the postal delays, you get your KS game often later than others, b) games are just as expensive as retail because shipping skyrocketed, publishers pad costs with production, c) public backlash towards KSE and game-bloat with pre-planned game component design (for tighter development & production timelines) has caused creators to scale back on SGs. So, yeah, except (any) CMON games and KS-exclusive games, it's now better to just let your FLGS now you want a KS game and hope they back it.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Basically. I try to back where I can or where I know I like the game...but more and more I'm out.
@Sthunderrocker
4 жыл бұрын
If your local flgs is in CMON's retailer program, you can reserve a KSE with them and cut out the shipping...
@BoxOfFear
4 жыл бұрын
This, lol. I want to argue, but “i want it first” and KSEs are the only two reasons I would ever even look at a KS that I might want. It sounds horrible of me, so I just deflect with the excuse “I’d rather support my FLGS. Thew used to give me free tables to play on.”
@anthonystrickland7049
4 жыл бұрын
Part of the reason Kickstarters aren't good deals has to do with the type of games being started. It's becoming usual that the game is little more than an excuse to sell extravagantly modeled miniatures. Even if it's a reasonable price for the content, the game doesn't look any better served for having them. A lot of times I see a Kickstarter and wonder if I need the minis rather than if the game is one I might want to play. Generally, the answer is no and I end up spending my game budget on cheaper, released, titles with less flash.
@Talliesyn
3 жыл бұрын
Great points. The one thing that really gets me mad is when a big company puts the actual core game content in their stretch goals. Like unlocking 2 or 3 out of 4 playable characters when the whole game has no reason to be released without them... And of course later at retail they are already inside. So the whole SG journey, as they call it, seems pointless at best. At this point they could've just produced their game and sell it the traditional way.
@nekochen
4 жыл бұрын
When a project splits their original design into 50 different parts, then offer them back as "stretch goals" and "unlocked freebies" ... WOW! What a great deal! When a project presents itself with 100% integrity while offering almost zero stretch goals, oooohh boy... time to eject before you're caught in the blazing s***tstorm.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yes. It's a game. No question there.
@irene1307
4 жыл бұрын
To be fair, stretch goals which are just cosmetics and increased production quality are okay. Like having plastic tokens instead of cardboard ones, or more fancy dice, or pre-painted minis
@jandro4644
3 жыл бұрын
Good point with CMON. Buying any of their games on retail is throwing your money to the bin. You either jump on their KS or forget that game exists.
@BoardGameCo
3 жыл бұрын
Most of the time yes.
@angrytheclown801
4 жыл бұрын
I've only backed one game; the infamous Exploding Kittens. I've found it to be a great game between games, kids love it, and they ran their campaign in a way I was just buzzing in glee. A humorous aside, they promised a mystery bonus as a thank you for it being so ridiculously successful. I knew some other backers and we were abuzz. The game came on the same day. So when we opened it and the game box meowed at us we had to ask each other if we were hearing things. My niece, who was excited over it, just started giggling. I closed the box and opened it again just for more meows and giggling.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Lol that's awesome, I never heard that :)
@angrytheclown801
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo Man, it was pretty much a party for the backers. They sent us sketches for the hell of it, they took some of that money that was pure profit and held pizza parties at animal shelters to get animals adopted, at one point the stretch goals were no longer money triggered but challenges. As much as people have criticized, and they should because everything is open to criticism, the whole thing felt good ultimately to take part in.
@VikingKittens
3 жыл бұрын
Impressed at the increased quality of your videos and audio in the last 5 months. Well done! Wonderful video btw!
@BoardGameCo
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@NatanelApfel
4 жыл бұрын
This was a really insightful and indepth look at this issue on both sides. I never thought about the additional margins that would need to be covered by smaller publishers for their start up costs such as art. Seems like something not well considered in some of these arguments... Thanks for the great video!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you! Any relation to a Chaim Apfel by any chance?
@NatanelApfel
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo not that I know of! But there are very few of us Apfels around!
@BeforeYouPlay
4 жыл бұрын
Great topic! Kickstarters are always such a hot topic of debate for various reasons, but it's definitely a tough market with so much risk.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
For sure, it's such a fascinating corner of our hobby. Both engaging and frustrating at the same time.
@johnpanagos5835
4 жыл бұрын
Companies are keep releasing and releasing games, they dont playtest them enough and we end up most of the time with an average game and SGs that arent playtested and break the game. The best SGs for me are the upgraded components. The new trend is daily SGs, with less KS exclusives and even less profit for us.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
100% I hate playing games that I paid a lot for and I feel like a beta tester on.
@fy8798
4 жыл бұрын
KS exclusives are bad for games, so it's good there's less and less of those.
@Alex-hc1ls
4 жыл бұрын
The best thing about FOMO is that I can buy second hand KS games by a fraction of the price less than a year after release, please people keep wasting your money on KS bonanza, those like me appreciate your lack of financial selfcare.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Hey Alex :) I'm Alex!
@FCL70
4 жыл бұрын
I think your point #4 is the biggest factor. Basic economics: supply & demand. People (especially Americans) have more disposable income. Sellers are clearly going to note and take advantage of this. It's much like housing - sellers look at comps and make their best guess what they can sell theirs for.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
💯
@beneisen6982
4 жыл бұрын
It's definitely a tricky situation. i first noticed it a few years back as KS had more big name and/or established companies as opposed to the smaller and newer designers. i complained that they were essentially using KS as a preorder tool, where in theory, the bigger companies have the resources to bring a game to production without crowd funding. So this is where i often disagree with your evaluations on "should you back this" because you will frequently warn against newcomer designers because of the risk. While i acknowledge that the purpose of a platform can change, i disagree that KS should be used for larger companies to help trim down their bottom line by getting the consumer to pay up front (or more w/ S&H). i understand that they're taking advantage of the economic tool here, but it doesn't seem to sit right that they're pushing out new innovators. And to counter my own argument a little, some companies (such as CMON) have used this to offset their own risk by testing the waters on how well a new game concept/setting/etc will be received.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Agreed and disagreed. I'd argue that I'm more "consumer friendly" then most, specifically because I push for a KS transaction to be a mutually beneficial arrangement. As long as a large company is using KS to offer a better value...I'm all in. That's not pure selfishness, that's a win-win.
@aba824
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for all those videos. I'm getting excited about kickstarter games pretty easy :D but thanks to your videos I'm trying to take a big breath and reconsider my backs ;) already save few bucks. From next month I'm going to invest in your patreon and toss some coins for my witcher ;)
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Toss a coin to your Witcher!!!!! I need to make that my theme song, love it.
@Indubitably14
3 жыл бұрын
I would add that as the popularity of kickstarter games continues to skyrocket, so does the competition for our attention. Marketing costs go up from ads on facebook, instagram to preferential searches on kickstarter itself and Google SEO, those costs are passed onto the consumer.
@alexcannobbio710
4 жыл бұрын
Another very relevant point is the certainty of demand, kickstarter should be cheaper just for the fact that its a guaranteed sale, instead of the uncertainty of a tradicional sale
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yes, agreed.
@Sthunderrocker
4 жыл бұрын
I believe when you factor in shipping, especially outside of the US, no Kickstarter game is what I would call a good deal. That said, it's about getting product that you might not be able to get in retail, whether stretch goals or the entire game. And that's how we rationalize value for money spent.
@NovaGirl8
4 жыл бұрын
Yep. I wanted frosthaven but with the cost of shipping plus possible customs issues - I might as well buy from my flgs and save myself the stress
@bahasainggeris7884
4 жыл бұрын
I agree w/ what you are saying Alex. KS was originally designed to help get a product published that wouldn't otherwise. Unfortunately, it's become a way for established companies to test the market on projects they'd like to launch so that they don't have to publish the game if they don't like the results (one reason a campaign will be cancelled). The creators of KS don't care about backers, and they allow these practices to continue because they get 10% regardless. They'll also allow campaigns to be launched by people who haven't fulfilled previous campaigns, but that's another show. *chuckles*
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, definitely true.
@kalega311
4 жыл бұрын
Agree 100% on these. And I love that you point out "us" as a reason. Other channels have scalded companies for "exploitative" or "shady" KS practices, but I've always said it's the consumer that enables the companies to do it. They know the consumer will back regardless, so it's the companies' prerogative to take advantage of business as much as possible. Sure, they can also be more consumer-friendly, but until we start speaking up w/ our wallets about it, they have no reason to. Also, re: point #2, it reminds me of a good comment I read on a KS once: "It's never a good time to launch a KS." KS is just so saturated now, and expensive, that competition for our dollar is higher than ever. I think is is also why some games are actually offering less content for price, b/c KS is sort of the pseudo-standard now for publishers, that they feel there's no reason to have tons of FOMO or incentives on KS. I mean...of all the major publishers and indie publishers, really just the Asmodee umbrella and a couple smaller labels have avoided KS. edit: Also, even if a KS itself IS a good deal, the S&H usually makes up for it and turns it back into a basic, or even bad, deal. Like "hey, this game is $20 less than retail! ...but also costs $25 for S&H...$40 after I ad the add-ons." I avoided KS for years, only really delving deep into it last year and went on a backing binge for a handful of months. Til I finally realized how much S&H makes these games, not really that great of a deal...
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep. I still back the ones that are good deals and the occasional one I really want...but otherwise I walk away.
@TorIverWilhelmsen
4 жыл бұрын
Video game kickstarters can be worse: Even if we ignore the one-man projects that take years and years (if they ever deliver), the lower prices offered to the backers pale next to a nearly inevitable 90% Steam sale price. Though you do perhaps get to follow along in the development - the Battletech project had quite a few demo play videos from the devs during the development process, for instance.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, the non-physical price of video games will always make the eventual discounts a problem.
@walkingtheland1
4 жыл бұрын
My big problem is I live in Israel and shipping prices have gone nuts. Awaken Realms has a very nice deal where they ship it inexpensively but very slowly. I'll gladly wait another 2 months and save $80 on shipping. Chip Theory had an amazing deal of $50 for shipping anything worldwide. I may have gone a little overboard....
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Oh man, international shipping can kill. I grew up in Canada and even that was tough.
@Jaspovideos
4 жыл бұрын
That 50% to the distributor is actually 60%, 65% if through a consolidator (which is the only distribution option, if any, for most small publishers). Retailers with connections get it from the distributor for 50%. Those without get even worse deals from the distributors. But anyway, that's a big difference for the publisher, 5-10% profit vs the 20% you're describing. A difference of $5-10k profit on even a small print run for a small game.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I don't make games myself, so I could definitely be wrong. But I know I've read those numbers on multiple sites, blogs etc from various people who do make games. You could definitely be right, for all I know you're in the know. I'm just quoting others.
@Santanilla
4 жыл бұрын
Lowering your price also helps get the game to twice the homes , later on all these buyers will become embassadors, many games sold are a result of trying it at a friends house.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
That's fair, I'll see the comment that twice the sales at lower margins is worth it. But keep in mind you can't guarantee that. You might just lower your margins and only see 1.3 times the sales
@Santanilla
4 жыл бұрын
BoardGameCo that’s right. I went too far with twice 😂
@Elheru42
4 жыл бұрын
Ive found 2 shifts have happened on kickstarter lately. 1 is that companies are offering daily unlocks instead of stretch goals. My answer to that is that i now only back for $1. My credit card doesnt get hit straight away and the company will owe less money to kickstarter as a percentage. The 2nd thing I've noticed is games not offering anything at all other than maybe a cheaper product now. Living in Australia means that the exchange rate and shipping kills any chance of it actually being cheaper on kickstarter. I will 100% buy Frosthaven one day and i think Isaac Childres is a legend. But there was no reason to back the kickstarter at all. That money i would have spent will stay in my account for a year and a half and I will buy it on special from a store one day.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, in general putting a dollar in the pledge manager is a good idea... With caveats. That's definitely a video I want to create.
@thedemonpit
4 жыл бұрын
Grim hollow,kingdoms and warfare, and stubbles codes of companions are a bunch of chads in the kickstarter market.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Cool thanks!
@AdamJorgensen
4 жыл бұрын
Man, the stretch goals thing. One particular example that comes to mind for me is the Shadow Tactics boardgame KS which I pledged on. They ended up adding a Solo-mode stretch goal due to backers whining in the comments and as the solo mode was not actually something they'd planned it's set back the whole development of the game by months :-/ Lately I've been backing more smaller projects from first-time creators because I'm more interested in seeing if a new creator can produce something great than I am in lining CMONs coffers :-)
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Ya, that can happen. Same with MD, the original campaign mode was tacked on and ended up with the game getting a lot of backlash.
@zerbique3500
4 жыл бұрын
"And as long as we are buying games at FOMO prices that we would never pay in store, we incentivize the continuation of this practice." That's key. Thanks for this guideline. I'll try to stick to it.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yes! Sadly I'm guilty of it as well although I tried to minimize it as much as possible. Some games offer premium components that are worthy of the price they are asking. Others don't.
@zerbique3500
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo But then there's also the thing where you are 'forced' to buy these premium components while you don't think they are necessary. I'm thinking to the Oath campaign by Leder Games where it was either the game with the heavy shiny metal coins and the journal, or nothing at all. Sure, the final product has a good value for what you get, but in the end you still pay for and get a bunch of things you never wanted...
@Viragomp
4 жыл бұрын
The last game I backed was Isle of Cats, and of course I had to get the expansion as well. I enjoyed the hype and the 'ride', but it had a big price tag and it was annoyingly available for *so much* less later (like half the KS price!) from online stores. I do love the game but lesson learned, I've definitely cooled off KS.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yes. I love the game and it's fine....but what I paid now vs what could be paid later....it was definitely a disappointment.
@michaelb8111
4 жыл бұрын
I just received my last expansion for Thunderstone Quest in the mail yesterday and I'm not sure if the All-In was a good investment. It's a great game, but it has not seen the table nearly enough to warrant the investment.
@Viragomp
4 жыл бұрын
@@michaelb8111 FOMO my friend, FOMO.
@michaelb8111
4 жыл бұрын
@@Viragomp LOL it's more contagious than the covid.
@aonline_abridged
4 жыл бұрын
Same, I felt a little sick when I saw what he deluxe edition ended up selling for.
@Punkyscout
4 жыл бұрын
I also think companies have gotten better at gauging/squeezing SGs. Before many companies went crazy because they though their campaign needed that push or they miscalculated (my beloved first KS: Shadows of Brimstone). But as tame has gone by publishers have learned to space-out, calculate or even divide stretch goals so they (publishers) don't "lose"money (after the first Shadows of Brimstone the Forbidden Fortress KS seemed more sparce but, to my mind, better planned).
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Very possibly. That goes to reason 4 ... The more people back at Kickstarter that doesn't give you a reason to, the more you will see Kickstarters that don't give a reason to back.
@Kurgan_UK
4 жыл бұрын
Kickstarter is just being used by publishers to advertise their games. You can tell by the production values that the big games are coming out regardless of what funding goal they set. What they really want is 20-30k people looking and talking about their game and this advertising is fantastically cheap for them, where they get most of their advertising revenue back as pledges.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
It's more than that. Don't get me wrong, you're right but it's also hype... It's also FOMO... It's also lower margins being taken out by multiple people... there are any number of reasons for publishers to prefer Kickstarter. I just focus on the idea that for all the benefits they are seeing... I'm only backing if you give me a reason to.
@jeffduer7641
4 жыл бұрын
counterpoint: Shipping. I have once done a direct purchase from a European publisher and the shipping is outrageous. Although us Canadians regularly pay allot for shipping, it is worse outside of KS. True that compared to online retail the shipping is expensive but you one orders direct and doesn't get benefit of a bulk shipment to local repackaging that is common with KS then it gets absolutely ridiculous.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Totally makes sense, these will definitely factor in.
@BbBb-zx6sx
4 жыл бұрын
I always heard of prices set by the doubling principle. Cost of $10 to make. Distributor sells for double, $20. Retailer sells for double $40. The retailer takes the biggest risk and can discount the item.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
It likely varies by industry but general idea is the same.
@petarenev5266
4 жыл бұрын
Great video as always! Alex, I think you are the most in-depth reviewer on KZitem and always have a great rationale! Respect!
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@EricWoning
4 жыл бұрын
Having a bit of trouble with the title / intro to this video. Kickstarter was never meant to be a place for big business, it was set up as a peer-to-peer micro loan platform which subsequently got hijacked by bigger publishers as a marketing platform. 1) So saying it isn't a good deal to back indie companies is misunderstanding the platform at best, totally bonkers at worst (How can ‘great game you would otherwise never see - take Gloomhaven for example - be 'a bad deal'? Surely price is not just linked with amount of plastic, but what a [great] idea is worth.) 2) If anything - backing bigger companies on Kickstarter is a bad deal as they push up the price to market a Kickstarter, making it near impossible for those for which the platform was intended to have real success. So in that sense - they’ve already won. 3) Bigger publishers misused the platform to use it as a marketing platform (where they can gauge success and thereby 'demand' retail space at launch) As you argue, it became a ‘not that great deal for retailers’ later, but onlywhen Kickstarter grew. Because for someone to see something as not a good deal, they need to have seen the Kickstarter price first. This anchoring problem (anchoring is the technical term for what you described) only becomes problematic if a sizeable audience has it*. 4) Bigger companies have become incredibly smart in their marketing of the product. They know the way to create FOMO and are capitalising on it (using behavioural science tricks straight out the infamous ‘hooked’. It’s funny because Stretchgoals are something that are far more interesting for a lot of other products. For boardgames it should be matt finish vs,glossy, thickness of cardboard, wood or plastic counters etc. Being able to pay for higher production cost is what it was meant for…. Again - for small companies The consequence is that bigger publihsrs are investing more in their marketing campaigns and the FOMO inducing stretchgoals than the real quality of the boardgame itself. *I think you are overestimating how savvy most boardgamers are. Most people still don’t ever look at Kickstarter, let alone know what the Kickstarter price was. Price savviness to most is using a meta search engine like BoardGamePrices.com to find the best deal on the product you want, not go to Kickstarter to check what the price used to be.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yes, if going by the original intent of helping startup companies, this video has no bearing. Which I touched upon in the video. I'm referring to any number of companies that are offering games that already exist and are using the platform to sell created games.
@EricWoning
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo - I really like your videos, I just think that what you say at 0:32 that backing first time creators has always been a bad deal will be interpreted like I did by most. (Yes, you say this video is not about them, but only after saying that it's a bad deal period.)
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
@@EricWoning From a value perspective it generally is. You're defending the concept of a platform to support creators, I'm talking about the pre-order platform that Kickstarter has become. If the goal is support that's a different conversation, the word deal never enters the picture.
@EricWoning
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo - I admire you just for taking the time to react. So massive shoutout to that. I just think we should agree to disagree - to me the fact that you today launch a video on Chronicles of Drunagor (small indie publisher that literally has only published one game before that did not do well) and say that it is good value seems to contradict this. But I'm guessing you don't see it in that way, so it's best to agree to disagree then.
@alecgalbraith5604
4 жыл бұрын
The deals with KS come with exclusives and deluxe editions that aren’t released at retail. They’re still ridiculously expensive compared to retail editions of games later released for a much cheaper price, but I find the deluxe editions retain their value well (and often I can resell for a higher price even after I play the game 10+ times). I sold my used Dinosaur Island + Totally Liquid deluxe editions for $40 more than I paid for, my used deluxe does Gentes for $10 more than I paid for, and my used 7th Continent for $20 more than I paid for. I would never, ever back a KS that’s a retail edition that will later be released, even for games I love like Paladins of the West Kingdom. KS shipping alone ruins any “deals” offered via ks for retail editions.
@defiantj975
4 жыл бұрын
I find that the retail version of a lot of KS games just suck in comparison. It's clear that most KS offer significant quality upgrades that don't transcend to the retail editions.
@alecgalbraith5604
4 жыл бұрын
WhiteHawktriple7 Agreed for the most part, especially when speaking about companies like CMON. When that’s the case, I either back the KS or don’t buy the game at all.
@patriziopastore9895
4 жыл бұрын
A lot of company use ks just to sell easier game and most important the shipping cost is becoming insane
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, and people keep backing :)
@patriziopastore9895
4 жыл бұрын
BoardGameCo yeah I’m the first one lol lol lol
@rodneyaudley2980
4 жыл бұрын
No mention of taxes? I think this area has gained a lot of "clarity" in recent years and now you regularly see campaigns marked with x-area is "shipping friendly" (in reality the publisher pays the tax for you).
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I really need to add that as a regular topic point. It started becoming more and more of a thing this year and I haven't mentally integrated it into what I look for...although I should.
@zerbique3500
4 жыл бұрын
On the other hand, at least for France, I'm pretty sure there is no VAT for these KS products, which you would pay in retail, so all in all, it compensates.
@rodneyaudley2980
4 жыл бұрын
@@zerbique3500 all the goods will be vatable even if some are under the threshold (I.e. the vat is £0), but it will be paid for by the shipping company as they are the importer and you are the end user. This is why you have shipping friendly campaigns- they sort the tax out for you.
@zerbique3500
4 жыл бұрын
@@rodneyaudley2980 I understood that. My point is that the total price (pledge+shipping) includes a 'VAT' share, whether it's in Retail or through KS. But it makes no difference -the KS price accounts for it. The publisher does not make charity when it 'pays it for you'. It would be the same as saying that the retailer 'pays the tax' for you in retail, because they sell a game at a price which already accounts for the VAT (maybe the situation is different in the US). It's just one of the multiple price components that is part of the total (an incompressible one though as greater bulks of game don't reduce it for each individual game). The video could account for it, but it wouldn't change the main message. There remain more price components in retail than on KS, and this difference is seldom reflected through the KS pledge value.
@cameronartgames1354
4 жыл бұрын
Some great insight into the board game industry on KS right now! As a first-time publisher, I am actively trying to avoid this. Our first game will be going up at a discounted price with free shipping and will hopefully be upgraded by stretch goals to make the deal even better.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Ooohh color me excited :) What game and when?
@cameronartgames1354
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo Vowl: The Game of Letters Gone Astray. It launches August 3rd! www.cameronartgames.com/vowl
@vzuzukin
4 жыл бұрын
No one delves into the ECON of the hobby like you do. It’s your niche.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@channel99productions21
4 жыл бұрын
King of Average
@foyoGames
4 жыл бұрын
Nice Niche
@LennyV95
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the (again) great video! Your insight in the economics side of kickstarter games is really interesting and has learned me a lot and brought me new perspectives. Your videos also help me get my spending and fomo in check, so thanks! :D
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Really appreciate you saying so :)
@TheShapingSickness
4 жыл бұрын
I've only backed one kickstarter. I was afraid I was going to become addicted to it, but honestly I'm not even hooked. The kickstarter I backed is doing horrendous, it's been delayed beyond comprehension. Then, most kickstarters are just a pile of boxes with so many gray boring minis. Three things I'm interested in: good gameplay, amazing art, relative small box.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Lol, having a bad experience like that will help with the addiction :)
@CheddahSlammer
4 жыл бұрын
All Kickstarters are delayed beyond comprehension.
@PiMagicTG
4 жыл бұрын
Started on this boardgames life very late, and only now started building my collections. Couple months ago heard about games on KS and to be honest, I cannot see the appeal to it. The prices seemed always so damn high. And when I found out that the shipping cost were not included ( and after seeing some of those costs) I was like, this is completely nuts. I get the “ let’s support the small publishers and so on” but from the economic perspective, it looks that the money is not well spent when I can just buy it a couple months later whithout paying shipping. The most relevant fact is indeed FOMO. The willingness of people to buy into this is what makes the price of the games higher and higher without any other important reason. I do not agree with everything, but mostly I see the FOMO and hype from Beaty add ons and sparky shinny stretch goals.. Great video btw
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks. Not to scare you but I was right there with you the first 5 years in the hobby. Then the last 2 or 3 I got addicted.
@hausser3024
4 жыл бұрын
The best deal i have seen on kickstarter is the Tainted Grail sundrop pledge, three campaign boxes for around $120 shipped.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Solid choice 👌
@Niffin.
4 жыл бұрын
I still hope there will be some very good catches in the future, even tho yes, You are right in the title and in the video: KS was about more than pre-order games coming out 1 year later... The journey itself for any decent KS project is very exciting, but more frequently this not coming hand-in-hand with "yes we creating this project together". The success of certain projects are already defined and day by day You are hyped for the new extras only (Terraforming Mars Turmoil or Big Box, and yes I was one of those people backed both anyways). It's still a better experience than going to the local game store and take a box off the shelf.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Oh there still will be. Deals can certainly be had, or my entire channel would be just saving myself the research and saying don't back. they're just fewer and further between, and the collective new companies being on Kickstarter don't seem to be associated with the amount of new good deals.
@jwspiker
4 жыл бұрын
Great topic, It's very rare a good deal lately. IMO the only good deals i feel i've gotten are group pledges. The KS projects that view their backers as customers tend not to be a good deal, and projects that view backers as partners/retailers tend to be better deal. Give me an option for group pledge for 50% off MSRP. Those have been decent backed games for me.
@tychay
4 жыл бұрын
7:30 Since you like CMON so much, a huge factor is the cost of the minis (vs. smaller scale stuff). One thing you should look at (and recommend to viewers) is Toby O'Hara's series on miniature manufacturing: kzitem.info/news/bejne/lIenmIhva2ujqmU (there are three parts so far). Eye opening! It isn't just their margins in many cases, but the scale you need for that "rule of 4" to become a "rule of 5."
@stickandmud
4 жыл бұрын
Wow, Is this one-take video? that's amazing
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks :) I'm allergic to editing, which means I need to get as good as I can to minimize it :)
@ABCTraveler-ol5oj
3 жыл бұрын
Alex thanks for this video. Unfortunately publishers on Kickstarter keep that extra profit and don’t give it back to players as extras
@BenjaminH_48
4 жыл бұрын
One thing that I dislike in KS is the "fear of missing out strategy" by using "kickstarter exclusives". I can understand if the whole game is KS exclusive, but if the game comes in retail, I believe that I should be able to get all the content...it can be a more expansive than KS I don't mind, but make it available) I can use Ankh as an exemple. I love Rising Sun that I bought in retail, but I always wanted to have the extra content (never found any except overpriced on ebay, etc)...so I told myself that I would buy the next one (Ankh) on KS so I'm not missing out. The main game was $100 (+ ks exclusives) and if you do the all in pledge its $220 or something (which includes 3 expansions and more plastic). But based on what I saw, I'm not entierly convinced that I will like Ankh....so my first thought was "Buy the base pledge and if you enjoy it, buy expansions later in retail"...but the problem is that there are KS exclusives/upgraded components in the expansions too (and if bought in retail, it will not match with upgraded game pieces in the initial pledge). So, I have this fear of missing out, and that almost led me to go all in (which is a little less than $400 CAD with shipping...a crazy price) for a game I'm not sure that'll be fun. I decided to skip it and might regret it later. That's why I enjoy non KS exclusives campaigns. Leder games does this; no gimmicks. They offer the same game that will be available in retail, but they add free stuff for people buying it on Kickstarter (Extra deck of cards, upgraded components, etc). Add ons that don't change the game's balance and that is also available later if I decide to purchase it in retail.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Completely understand. The problem is you have to choose who to make happy, either you're giving backers a great reason to back...or not. It's always a balance but KS at it's core is very much a model that wants to incentivize people to back now.
@BenjaminH_48
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo oh I 100% understand that, icentives are necessary for most KS campaigns, I regret backing a couple of my first KS games because the plus value was not strong enough (if there was even one) and the retail version was cheaper AND one of them was available in store 3 months before I received my copy...but in general, I feel like there are better, or more "ethic" incentives than "KS exclusives" (free stuff later available in retail for more $, creating content with the community, free expansion, etc). I just know that knowing about the exclusives especially in the expansions of Ankh was enough for me to not purchase it on KS and mostly not even consider it in retail later on. But I don't know all the information, maybe the costs would be too big to send those extras in retail/not enough demand.
@ipm123456789
4 жыл бұрын
I backed quite a few Kickstarter projects, including board games and I still do. But I don't want all those big box super deluxe versions. Sure those miniatures look good, but they are no longer miniatures, you can often call them megatures. I don't want to pay extra for things that don't fit on the board and could easily have been cardboard standees. Smaller campaigns that need Kickstarter to fund themselves use stretch goals to improve their components if the extra money allows. Sometimes they design extra stuff during or after the campaign, all because they now can. Larger campaigns want to sell those miniatures because (some) people adore them. The campaign is more expensive from the start, stretch goals are no longer about improving components, but adding "new" stuff that they designed long before the Kickstarter and already had to pay for. Why is Kickstarter no longer a bargain? Because Kickstarter is no longer used by the large companies to actually kickstart their project.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Ironically the larger companies are the ones that deliver the most value. As far as personal tastes...I hear. I like a mix in my collection.
@alexandrelimoges3507
4 жыл бұрын
I agree with you. KS has become a mine gold for publishers making money on FOMO. Many don't even care giving you any form of incentive to back anymore and just sit on the bogus 20% off MSRP (which always turns out being 30% more than what is sold in store) and "get the game (a week) before everyone else" promises. Recent KS even let you deal with VAT yourself and people still back. I am moving away quickly from KS myself at this point, event though some games are still worth it and some publishers do actually need it.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, good deals can still be had and I will still stick around the platform as long as they can be. But it definitely has shifted.
@JMcMillen
4 жыл бұрын
A few things. I think part of the overall slowdown is mostly crowdfunding exhaustion among backers who supported many games over the last 6-7 years and are starting to get a little more selective, especially when their previous campaigns are starting to clutter their residence. Then there are the publishers that realized that the tabletop backer crowd could only support so many campaigns at a given time, especially for the larger games. I've seen more than a few comments from people apologizing about only backing $1 now, because there are too many simultaneous campaigns going on and they can't afford them all at once. I think some are getting better about finding out about upcoming big campaigns and trying to avoid running theirs around that time (if possible). As for those margins, one of the big expenses for board games is the start up cost, not the actual production of the game. The Massive Darkness 2 campaign had an initial funding goal of $300K and I'd bet that the cost of the steel molds needed to make all those mini's for just the base game was probably somewhere close to half of that. Those things aren't cheap. Back when Reaper Miniatures did their first Bones campaign, the cost for a small mold to make a single 28mm scale miniature was $1000 per mold. Their initial funding was primarily to pay to have the molds made and they figured there would be enough left to crank out mini's to send to backers. The campaign, thankfully, blew up and they shot past their initial goal fast so they started adding stretch goals. But they take costs into consideration and the gap between goals gets further and further apart the farther they go because they know that next stretch goal has to not only pay for the new molds, but also an ever increasing number of mini's that will be shipped to backers. But they are very much upfront about the fact that the campaign is about getting molds made so they can make mini's for sale at retail locations. The mini's made during the KS are just the backers ROI. I also think that your point about protecting MSRP and latecomers missing out on exclusives is a lesson many, but not all, companies are realizing is very important. If I was a retailer, why would I stock a game when half the stuff will never be available for me to sell because it was "Exclusive". Special order sure, but not something that may just sit on the shelf and never move because of all the extra's I can't offer. Funny enough, I did one campaign a few years ago and recently the creators polled the backers to see if we'd be cool if the "Exclusive" stuff could now be available for anyone to purchase and pretty much everyone was cool with it. And I could see that if a campaign wasn't going to have a lot of free stretch goals maybe a small discount is alright, but not so much that you make the MSRP seem inflated. Enough to make people think it's a good deal to get now, but not enough to make the full price a hard sell later on. But I like backing small campaigns even with minimal or no free stretch goals, even without a discount, if I believe it's a product I'll enjoy or put to good use. I've backed plenty of card games, tiny board games, and plenty of metal/resin miniatures. Especially mini's for things you don't see a lot of (like female dwarves or any fantasy female that's not a human or elf). And finally to everyone, don't forget that when you see that cool big campaign early on, instead of jumping in and backing sometimes it's best to hit the "Remind me" button and check back closer to the end. You can get a better picture of what you'll get if you back and the time may have cooled off the initial excitement and get you to rethink whether you really need it or not. Believe me, I've walked away from more than a few cool games and stuff by not diving in right away and I don't regret it at all.
@JulselRaider
3 жыл бұрын
One main reason for me myself to back games ln KS is, that I am not sure, if they would ever come into retail in my country. I live in Germany and of couse there are also great KS campaign throughout whole Europe, but many games don't present a german version (which I understand). Therefore, if i really like the game, I back it on KS in order to even be able to play it ^^. That's why I am willing to pay more in comparison to retail :)
@BoardGameCo
3 жыл бұрын
Completely makes sense.
@brett232
4 жыл бұрын
I got into board gaming a little over a year ago, and when I get into something I get into it heavily, I only discovered Kickstarter about 3 months after and for me it was just great window shopping and purchasing things I liked, I didn't really think of the money because in my head I was like well its money I won't spend later, but then more and more exciting things came up and I feel in the trap of liking everything, now I've received a couple of games and some a really good and some are just ok, and now I'm backing off see what things I've purchased that really are good then I can make better choices in the future. Kickstarter its easy to fall into the hype train, with all the videos. pictures, daily unlock's, and I completely agree with the statement with what I'm trying to do now, would I purchase this game if I was at my FLGS, and looking back I would have definitely not purchased some of my Kickstarter, so fingers crossed to those working out and more knowledge moving forward
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
100%. One of the reasons Kickstarter keeps being able to do what it's doing, is that the money you spend today doesn't even have the possibility of being followed by regret for a year. Until you've started to receive some games and started to be let down and realized they were just another game. That basically means that Kickstarter can get a lot of money out of one person before they start slowly turning off that faucet.
@irene1307
4 жыл бұрын
Do NOT back CMON Kickstarters.They aren't doing a good job with those at all. The only thing they successfully do is disrupting Kickstarter model making it utterly broken for smaller publishers.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
How so? They provide a great value....if your argument against them is that others can't provide the same value, that's not a good reason not to back in my opinion. That would be advocating for price fixing.
@seangildersleeve1270
4 жыл бұрын
I agree with this video and it makes me feel bad about myself. THANKS! I know a lot of the games on my list are, "I don't want to miss out on this." Thinking it's cheaper than it would be at retail. I would say a few are, "Yeah this game looks cool...I'll help this person out." I just bought a folding Japanese toy because I thought the guy running the campaign was super sweet and the toys were cute. Do I want one? Sure-ish. But really I wanted to help him out.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I'd ask for the link but I'm afraid.....
@billybirdy9507
4 жыл бұрын
I agree with some of your comments. But the focus should be more on the creatively of the game. A company should be able to charge more for a really clever game if the developer has spent a lot of time developing the concept and design. The biggest cost for any business are the wages. Assessing a game on the bling alone where the game is just a copy of other game is meaningless if it’s not great fun to play. I’m happy to criticise bankers and some other industries for screwing over society, but it seems to me that most small board game publishers are struggling to pay a bills.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I completely agree with the caveat... How does a backer know that a game is clever? For instance this is something I touched upon with guards of Atlantis that component wise didn't have a ton of stuff but I had played it and thought it was an excellent excellent game. Additionally another factor, is no matter how clever our game is... If it's cheaper at retail then the only real reason you're giving your backers to back is supporting you. Which is basically charging them a fee for being nice.
@Table.Fables
4 жыл бұрын
There is currently quite a big global supply issue on retail board games due to covid. I’m not a Kickstarter man myself but I suspect that the FOMO aspect of backing Kickstarters is fuelled by this general supply/demand equation in this industry- it gives frustrated buyers an outlet to spend some money and feel good about what they’re going to get
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I'll take that one step further....a whole lot of people in the US getting a $1200 check from the govt probably allowed for some board game spending.
@Table.Fables
4 жыл бұрын
Absolutely! Plus the cash they have saved on not being able to buy that out of stock board game they wanted..
@jamestetzlaf5739
4 жыл бұрын
Not getting to GenCon this year also made me think about money I didn't spend, allowing myself to feel less concerned about backing a pricey KS.
@CheddahSlammer
4 жыл бұрын
My thing is shipping is ridiculous on Kickstarter now based on the size of boxes your going to get, so the more content thrown in isn't a deal anymore cause it increases the shipping. On the other hand you can get the game on Amazon and get the same content with Free Shipping cause Amazon being as Massive as it is can afford to pay for that shipping. I remember getting a game for 110$ and then because of the content in stretch goals, it doubled the size of the box and Shipping went from 20$ to 80$. Then I saw the same game on sale at Walmart for 90$, and I was like, dam I got screwed. Sure I wasn't going to get these extra Kickstarter exclusives, but was it worth the extra for the shipping I paid. This is why I tend to go All IN now which is probably wrong, because I fell that the base game might be found later on, but these expansions will be limited to find, if at all, or are extremely expensive. The one Kickstarter that I backed now that's really upsetting me is Dead Reckoning. These Daily Discoveries just don't add up to me, especially these Party Ones were its just a vid of creators playing the game. The last one they offered 300$ worth of gifts to random people that could watch their stream, just really annoyed me because one I wasn't available at that time, and two why don't they just use that 300$ for their game as a whole. If their gifting it just use it to benefit everyone, not just select people. I am very close to dropping my pledge but the game looks so good, and many have praised it as a really great game. Maybe I should just weigh if I really need this game, or if I don't.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Ya, the daily reveals are pretty weak. I played and loved though so I'm all in.
@CheddahSlammer
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo Yeah Canceled my pledge lol.
@TheFlapper666
4 жыл бұрын
I pre-ordered kickstarter editions with full contents of the new Aliens board game and Altar quest incl. the Fantasy box, and I really think the price is fair enough considering the ammount of stuff that are included.
@npckse8508
4 жыл бұрын
I think late pledges, even through a pledge manager, add a ton of profitability for some KS campaigns. All of a sudden they are only losing a tiny piece for each late pledge
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
For sure, although there still is a price there, but it's less than the 10% of KS.
@megamer29
3 жыл бұрын
Where's the line between 'Pay because of FOMO' vs 'Pay because the extras make it worth while'? There are many games that I probably wouldn't pay the kickstarter list price for 'just' the core game, even though 'technically' its listed as a 'buy core game for price get extras free' which goes back to trying to protect msrp... That said... expansions... expansions are definitely FOMO, especially with the threat of kickstarter exclusive. If nothing else, I find it too easy to think 'I should get it now because itll be twice the price on ebay later', instead of 'I shouldnt get it now because I might not even want it later, or I might be able to get a deal, or inflation means that if someone sells at the same price later itll be better for me, or I could invest the money now and have more money later anyways' etc... But I digress. I do that a lot... My brain tends to go down rabbit holes...
@BoardGameCo
3 жыл бұрын
100% agreed. I'll have more videos over time on the subject. Going all in on expansions is always tricky.
@Mepper.
4 жыл бұрын
Even though publishers can know the demand for a game by the number of Kickstarter backers, they have to set a price before the Kickstarter launches and therefore they don't know what economies of scale they will reach at the time they are deciding on the price. For a large number of Kickstarted games today "protecting the MSRP" is meaningless because the cycle of games coming and going in public awareness has become so short. If you are only going to have a single print run and sell it through Kickstarter, your own webstore, and at conventions then you aren't trying to support the price so it can move through distribution to FLGS. Of course the publisher has their own expenses and every little bit helps them to stay in business and produce future games so it's not wise to cut the price too much.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I imagine most creators so hope their game goes through multiple print runs and distributon deals.
@PlaytheGameHQ
2 жыл бұрын
Great solid advice. We are entering the phase of needing to cull our collection. It’s so difficult, but the truth is we will literally *never* get majority of our collection to the table. $ Alison
@garylangford6755
4 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised awaken realms is able to sell their stuff in retail. I found the Nemesis base game barely has content to demand the $100 retail price tag. Also feels bad when their kickstarter barely costs most than retail.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, people will still buy....but a lot less will, and they'll get a lot lees.
@buellrichardson5222
4 жыл бұрын
I think some Awakened Realms games would sell well in retail. I went in on Tainted Grail and I am on the Facebook page for it. There are posts fairly often asking about if/when it will go to retail or of people are selling their copies.
@stephendavis7327
4 жыл бұрын
Well I will say the msrp of games is practically $80 to start with these days and riding the marketing/awareness of a successful kickstarter game can make the higher price tag an option. Adam talks about protecting the MSRP but missed mentioning the pledge amount is the msrp for kickstarter games. Going to retail with an inflated msrp and half the content protects the value of the next kickstarter. See Lockdown for an example - higher price, less content than Nemesis. But when compared to the retail of just the core Nemesis box - what a deal!
@Mark-OutWest
4 жыл бұрын
Interesting. Things is some, hell all of these massive games with tons of content aren't seen in stores normally. I could only imagine how much more the store would charge? I have a FLGS that does a good job of getting some KS's in the store and they jack that price up.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Oh for sure, the larger ones only show up on ks.
@chevalierdulys
4 жыл бұрын
This is very interesting. You don't cover one but probably don't affect you. I'm from Portugal so either I buy in the only two or three stores exist OR I will buy online which has great shipping costs. So for that same common I will have to pay at least the double for Kickstarter. Awaken realms is another good example. So for people that live in countries that don't have the same coverage like USA, UK, Germany etc - Kickstarter it's the only $ solution. Lately I only back Awaken Realms, Shadows of Brimstone stuff and a couple of other liky Mythic Realms. I never back cmon because as you say, their stretch goals are not really that interesting. Awaken Realms gives you more game, more expansions.
@mpaice
4 жыл бұрын
The market will correct in time. But not soon - I think there's a way to go yet...
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
A long ways. People have to continuously be burned for this to self correct.
@Fighterfan69
4 жыл бұрын
Excellent topic. In the end it's all about the extra content. I actually hate that aspect of Kickstarters these days. I always see comments 'No stretch goals?!?!? Not backing". This is where the perceived 'value' is to the consumer. Many backers like exclusives. They feel that they justify the fact that they get all this content while others late to the party, don't. I look at the recent CMON collaboration, Marvel United, and all those exclusive minis and some expansions (Typical of CMON though). That's dangling the carrot IMO and any consumer that doesn't know about all this exclusive content will miss out as they won't be available to get it later on down the road. Especially those that first discover the game and enjoy it quite a bit and would like to get more content. I'm usually in that category. I feel left out of some interesting content that could give variety a game I really enjoy. It irks me to no end. I may be in the minority here but that's how I feel. If they were available at a later time that's ok. Those that backed to get the content get it for free while other pay extra for it. Why not go this route? Entitlement for those that backed for 'Exclusives' I guess. 'I backed so now one else should be able to get it.' Yeah likely for those that want to sell it for their own profit I guess. Thanks for the vid.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
100% agree. I agree there are problems with exclusives but that was less my topic today....that being said....time for another topic to make its way on my schedule :)
@isaacraze4301
4 жыл бұрын
Question, How can consumers miss out on content they don't know exists?
@haukionkannel
4 жыл бұрын
If you buy a game and like it, you most likely try to find out more. And the you hear that there actually is extra content. You just can not get it anywhere...
@VikingKittens
4 жыл бұрын
There is also the thought of paying more to get it early. I see this video games. If you want the new shiny you pay more when it comes out. If you wait for a year you can usually get it at a discounted rate. The same seems to be true with some Kickstarter games. I have been enjoying Isle of Cats for over 6 months now and my local game shop has this on preorder for the fall. I have no regrets about my purchase. This is something to try to keep in mind when I see a new shiny game though but it sure is difficult.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
💯 I usually mention this briefly but not a value to me personally. I have too many games I'm not playing already.
@haukionkannel
4 жыл бұрын
Same here... does not matter when I get the game. I have enough games to not buy new newer again... and I know that I am gonna buy something new in the future in anyway. Nothing wrong in that though, but not value to me.
@AnonymousOtters
4 жыл бұрын
The major thing you missed in this whole argument is that supporting small companies is EXACTLY the reason that we want to back projects even when the supposed value seems to be poor. I am happy to pay marginally more than what I would expect at retail if I know they are small and the game appears to be good. You mentioned this for 10 sec, and then seconds later excused it.
@forouza1
4 жыл бұрын
Great topic. Exception to small company providing value might be Blacklist Games. Their recent miniature campaign was an amazing deal and the SG were really amazing. Of course selling mini’s is different than actual game so will have to see how their next campaign measures up.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Totally agreed! There are definitely exceptions here and there and appreciate each and every one of them :)
@redknight808
Жыл бұрын
Another great, insightful vid. Thanks.
@SeanUCF
4 жыл бұрын
I've actually had the opposite experience in recent times with regards to kickstarter value. I've come across several games that were kickstarted and I look at the price they went for (some had KS exclusives and some didn't) and they end up being somewhere between more expensive to considerably more expensive in the after market (eBay etc.) or directly from the publisher. It might be partly due to availability, but its really making me wish I had noticed those kickstarters at that time so I could have gotten a much better deal.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Those will always exist for sure, I'm referring to the category as a whole. Which did you find?
@Kain652
3 жыл бұрын
Any examples?
@robinrising9929
4 жыл бұрын
I think Renegade games might actually be the worst I've seen. I payed $60 across minature market and CSI for the 3 expansions from Power Rangers wave 2 (-1 stretch goal figure) and they charged $130 to ship the same content (-1 figure) during their kickstarter. and they still hit 265k. People need to get much smarter about these mass market games hitting the KS, and watching what they back.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, renegade is generally overpriced.
@kamb26
4 жыл бұрын
Serious Polup(might’ve spelled that wrong) is the epitome of why not to back a Kickstarter. They made the 7th continent a kickstarter exclusive and basically said it was too expensive to produce. Total BS. They made millions. “Where is that extra money going?” Bingo. Also your point on just paying more for a retail game. I backed Cleopatra and the Society of Architects. The “Kickstarter exclusive” was $40 more for a better box and better components that honestly should’ve been in the retail box.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I hear you on SP, but also their KS did hold it's value....so tough call there.
@kamb26
4 жыл бұрын
BoardGameCo I dunno. Holding its value and the publisher getting away with a King’s ransom are two different things imo. It was mostly to your point of publishers making more than they say. The only reason why the game holds its value is bc the publisher makes it a Kickstarter exclusive. But recently they’ve released a bare bones version. They don’t want over saturation so they are releasing it in cycles (just like Kickstarter!) so bush league
@pokefrosch617
4 жыл бұрын
I´m not backing kickstarters. I played and own WAY to many games I just don´t enjoy. Why should I put money on a game I never played, almost noone did, and BBG Ratings are rediciously unreliable with KS these days. If the game is any good, it will become a good print run. I might need to wait to get it. And play another round of proven classics like Dominant Species, Suburbia, Power Grid, hell Acquire or new games that regularly hit my FLGS like Blitzkrieg or Imperial Struggle. I HATE how Kickstarter messed with the BGG ratings. A couple of years ago any game above 7.0 was usually rock solid fun. These times some games hit 7.5 just because people that spend 100+ $ on a pledge level don´t wanna admit it was a waste and don´t want to damage the resale value on bgg.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Half agreed. Lots of solid KS games out there, but I do agree that ratings can be inflated due to attachment.
@itsallfunandgames723
4 жыл бұрын
It seems like some companies, such as CMON, have suffered a little bit themselves from their Kickstarters not being quite as good a deal anymore. They've gotten into the habit of every year slapping Eric Lang's name on the side of the box and decreasing the number of minis included by about 20 fewer than you'd think for the price. And then making one or two million dollars less than seemed reasonable before the campaign began. I don't know the background numbers, but it seems like a lean and well managed company would still be trying to consistently bring that visceral appeal of great value to every campaign, spend that extra few tens of thousands of dollars for development to make a million more in sales. I don't see people wanting a price reduction, I see people wanting more and better content.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
Not sure I agree...Zombicide season 2 knocked it out of the park. Ankh had fewer minis but that's more akin to blood rage/rising sun....still tons there. Bloodborne put a ton of content out...
@itsallfunandgames723
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo : I don't want to say it's every time out for CMON, but Song of Ice and Fire, Death May Die, Trudvang, perhaps also Hate were all promising campaigns before they started but did not perform incredibly well. Perhaps they've returned to form though and are making sure they go back to their original, very successful formula.
@randomnev
3 жыл бұрын
Really interesting video! I think we should also not forget about the recent closing of the taxation loophole for US companies delivering to the EU. Having to pay 19% extra on top of the already inflated prices along with the extreme shipping costs (and even additional tax for the shipping costs) the US kickstarter campaigns got so ridiculously expensive for EU backers that I think only people with real addiction issues and FOMO will keep backing from here. Especially, if the most companies do not provide a valid reason to back their games on kickstarter as you mentioned in the video. After having a campaign where the VAT was added as somewhat of a surprise in the PM I have backed exclusively EU campaigns and I will stay away from any US-based campaign. I am pretty sure I am not the only one - just looking at the comments/uproad in the latest Tine Epic kickstarter I saw a lot of confused disappointed backers. I am interested to see how this will change the marketing, targeting and overall support KS campaigns will get from EU. In the end it may put all our FLGS and local publishers in a better position, which may not be a bad thing afterall. It is just a shame for small publishers whose success could depend on this missing EU-support.
@motog4221
4 жыл бұрын
Small Kickstarter games can't be compared to large retail games. Retail games have many more copies made than small kickstarted projects. Manufacturing requires tooling to occur before a single copy can be made: printing plates, cutting dies, moulds etc. Generally 1,500 copies must be ordered from a manufacturer for them to take the contract. The tooling costs can be spread thin enough over that many units to still produce a viable product at a reasonable price. The idea of profit at this many units is rather laughable, as the sheer volume of man-hours and money spent on design, prototyping and testing, artwork etc before the Kickstarter was even launched dwarfs the sliver of Kickstarter cash not eaten by Kickstarter fees, PayPal fees, Amazon fulfillment, manufacturing, shipping, import duties, and taxes. Complaining about missing out on the cheaper initial units in a Kickstarter is like complaining about having to pay more for shares in a company than the initial investor. Kickstarter is seen as a marketing tool by larger companies. Initial deals are necessary to generate community interest and support.
@BoardGameCo
4 жыл бұрын
I agree to an extent. The margins are better and make up for it but yes, this is why the fracturing and lack of knowing where the game will go contribute to these price difference.
@motog4221
4 жыл бұрын
@@BoardGameCo and of course, you don't know how many units will be sold on Kickstarter. You can set your goal low, but the individual unit cost will be higher. I guess as a backer you can look at the goal amount to estimate whether the producer is aiming too low or high and figure out the 'profit' that way. But seriously: board game makers usually lose money all told. They are in it for the love of the scene.
Пікірлер: 498