Followup to some of the responses here! kzitem.info/news/bejne/mntmr42icXZqqKw
@stupidanon5941
2 жыл бұрын
Scott, thanks for having this argument out. I've become convinced, until I see something to change my mind, that 120 is the right way to go.
@miramalverick2767
2 жыл бұрын
Me at level 510: - Well shit!
@Zantetsu13
2 жыл бұрын
@@stupidanon5941 Check matchmaking levels; everyone at 120 is already getting matched to people at 150.
@ShawnMOwen
2 жыл бұрын
Question what is that stat tracker that you're using
@shutupimstilltalking
2 жыл бұрын
Sorry 99 is my soft cap on intelligence, but I don't do pvp just casting.
@HolliThatsMe
2 жыл бұрын
I will absolutely throw moons at people in pvp and nothing will stop me
@icarusreaver3184
2 жыл бұрын
Like I love throwing a single heavy to do 1816 damage against a player with darkmoon, but I don’t need to, and I’d rather fight people than have a complicated game of who can love tap the other first
@denfire5063
2 жыл бұрын
well according to this guy you never are going to use it so, thats to bad
@sethforesi307
2 жыл бұрын
@@denfire5063 the dudes gonna eat his words meta level will be 140-150 without a doubt
@Hekk.
2 жыл бұрын
@@sethforesi307 of course, any build but pure dex/str feels incomplete at 120.
@theninja2k14
2 жыл бұрын
@@sethforesi307 with most stats now going to 80 and weapon arts being way better than ds3 ever was with also most people are getting past 140-150 by just playing the game with bearly any grinding I was 160 by time I got to the end some are close to that without even beating the game pure casters need 80 int. And need hp (like vig 40? I think)to survive just that that alone puts you past 120 and need some mind obviously your obviously pushing past 150 easily with this
@tuturuu6717
2 жыл бұрын
Look at this guy insinuating we shouldn’t be hurling a literal moon at people with our pure str builds ahaha
@shadowridin913
2 жыл бұрын
Like we don't wanna dodge moons, lasers and dragon blasts while throwing lightning bolts in our pvp. Since pvp is an endgame concept I think it should be 150
@rumbleterrier3365
2 жыл бұрын
@@shadowridin913 I think it should be lower. 125 or lower 🤷♂️
@boneman-calciumenjoyer8290
2 жыл бұрын
You're all wrong, everything past RL1 with an unupgraded club is broken and therefore shouldn't be meta!
@knowwhatimeme
2 жыл бұрын
I think the meta should be each classes respectable DEFAULT levels! 😎
@naota909
2 жыл бұрын
"the moon spell that you're never gonna use in a duel? who gives a shit?" wizards be like: ...and I took that personally XD
@grimsage5809
2 жыл бұрын
the one wizard I got a 1v1 invasion with and cast nothing but that..... then got oneshot and disconnected by a single running curvesword L1 trade
@DoingFavors
2 жыл бұрын
I beat a ton of meta builds using a hybrid of melee and magic and no I don't use the moon veil lol
@naota909
2 жыл бұрын
@@DoingFavors the moon spell, not the moonveil katana
@zacross8504
2 жыл бұрын
Me using the moon spell right now: You serious? Let me laugh even harder
@Humandust666
2 жыл бұрын
@@grimsage5809 this sounds pretty accurate lmao
@skypie427
2 жыл бұрын
im sitting at 136 as a pure caster with nothing but vigor, mind, and int and i havent even beat the game yet...You kinda just reach higher levels easier in elden ring
@basidiomycota5067
2 жыл бұрын
I heavily disagree with Mind being so low. I've got about 20 on my arcane build and I run out of mana pretty quickly. 10 seems ridiculous unless you're full melee.
@gasparm.2711
2 жыл бұрын
He's basically telling you some builds are not allowed to play in his game. Fuck this community.
@scooterberry0605
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah honestly I feel like 30 is pretty required if you care at all about using spells or ashes of war for extended periods of time
@spiraljumper74
2 жыл бұрын
Keep in mind that duelists are only going to have blue flasks. Your blue bar my be short but you have many more heals than usual.
@basidiomycota5067
2 жыл бұрын
@@spiraljumper74 That's if you're only dueling. This doesn't work for normal invasions.
@spiraljumper74
2 жыл бұрын
@@basidiomycota5067 Meta doesn’t matter for invasions at all. You can invade at any level and find people progressing through the game. Just use the chart on the wiki for area/level/weapon level progression and try to optimize your build based on those numbers if you really want to hit people going through ng. We don’t really have a “Pontiff” yet for invasions, and probably won’t because of the lack of covenants with invasions functions, but if some area like that is added in DLC’s we’ll probably see three or so main level ranges where it’s active like we did in Dks3 with invasions at 60-80, meta (wherever that ends up), and 200+.
@matheusmterra
2 жыл бұрын
Your own example shows a Strength Build that can't even wear heavy armor. That's counter-intuitive for what a Strength Build is. Your example of "does everything", yeah, but it does that very poorly. As a Sorcery dedicated character you need at the bare minimum 40 mind and 68 intelligence. Thing is that you want hybrid builds out of the meta, and pure casters to be one shotted by anything.
@mukmowf9402
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly this dude has no clue wtf he’s talking about meta will be 200 to 250 ish watch
@matheusmterra
2 жыл бұрын
@@mukmowf9402 if that's irony I didn't get it, but assuming it's serious, 150 is more than enough for all builds to be viable
@matheusmterra
2 жыл бұрын
@Sam minimum for optimization, peak performance. The meta level is supposed to allow you to reach peak performance in a pure build. For instance, as a caster, that means you need to reach 80 in your casting stat, 30-40 on Mind and having enough Vigor to not getting one shotted. For a melee build, enough for 80 in your primary damage stat, softcap Vigor and get enough endurance to sustain your attacks (you don't need stamina to roll basically, you need it to attack). You can play as low as lvl 20 as a pure caster, it will be optimized for that level and it will work just fine, but that's not what the meta is for. If you aren't taking the minimum investment for peak performance as your bar for thinking about the level, then it's completely arbitrary. How high is "high enough"? Ask ten different people and you may get ten different answers, because everyone will count only when their build came "online", but it's very difficult to tell when your build peaked. Good thing for people who prefer lower level cap is that you can alway have invasions, since people are leveling past you it means there will always be people on their way there, but make no mistake, the meta level WILL be 150, it's what most people are gravitating towards.
@matheusmterra
2 жыл бұрын
@Sam oh yeah, before you take to the extreme with "if you peak at that, why stop there then? Extra levels if you peaked make no difference", to which I say that THEN you peak at different areas and give too much versatility. You need to give up peak power for versatility for a meta level to exist. If you can reach the softcap and two offensive stats and vigor and endurance and mind, then yeah it's no longer a build but a jack of all trades master of all.
@Sun1ightSpear
2 жыл бұрын
Finally someone with a brain
@stupidanon5941
2 жыл бұрын
Super-important edit about 2/3rds of the way through the comment: 6:20 You won't have the FP to use all of those buffs. You'd need to at least go 20 in mind to have one round of those buffs, and they're very short-duration buffs. Take those 25 points of faith and split them evenly between strength and dexterity, leave the rest for endurance. 6:50 You're not doing everything minus sorcery at that point though. You've _slightly_ dipped into faith. Sure, you're taking the best buffs from faith, but that's only a very small part of what incantations have to offer. Quality builds should be stopping at 60/60 str/dex otherwise they're not going to have the damage. Dedicated str/dex builds should be stopping at 80. Main casters _need_ to hit their strong soft caps of 80 (which used to be 60), and need points left over for mind and endurance. Just 60 vigor and 80 int is automatically over 120. 6:59 Then what's the problem? Or rather, the thing that you're calling a problem is still going to be a problem either way, so why are you proposing 120 as a means of avoiding the problem? 7:42 Those tears only last like, 30 seconds, and then once they're gone, congratulations your build isn't functioning anymore. 9:04 I don't think you understand how linear the scaling on spell damage is in this game. I mean, I think the same goes for damage in general, minus a few outliers like transient moonlight. So far, the only remotely compelling argument I've seen for stopping at 120 is that we actually _need_ vig-gouge builds to offset the insane damage of certain options, but that's going to further penalize the damage of most normal playstyles in this game. 9:23 I really don't think you're going to have to worry about that, Scott; most everyone is going to either play with what is optimal (and your hypothetical hybrid build is not that, at least not right now) or they're going to play with the playstyle they enjoy. I don't think the ability to be a jack-of-all-trades, which as you rightly pointed out, we've always had, is going to convince a majority of players that they shouldn't specialize. 9:33 The talismans, I will give you. The physick flask, the attribute boosts from those should not be treated as a reliable, core component of your build because they wear off, quickly, and if you're using that to meet requirements of any kind, then suddenly your build literally falls apart when the buff wears off. On the other hand, I can see stopping damage stats at 50/70, respectively, due to that. From the description: "One of the main complaints about Elden Ring PVP is everyone is doing too much damage, so maybe we shouldn't all be triple buffed monsters with 80 Dex" What _specifically_ are people complaining about? I've done _a lot_ of invading these last couple days, and against normal people using normal weapons, I don't think damage is too high at all. Remember the network test, and how low damage output was. I think what people are complaining about are certain weapon arts and blender combos (and other things that I'm not even going to talk about here). If those things weren't a problem, how much of a problem would a build that can only sustain itself for like, 30 seconds, (because it relies on flasks and short-duration buffs), be? Edit: READ THIS! I've since revised my thinking on several of these points. Over the last two days I did a ton of duels, and even altered my build to 'dump' damage points into something useless to do a test and get as close as possible to simulating 120 damage output as I could. I dueled against someone who was actually 120, and we were both basically gibbing each other. Now, I _do_ think TTK is too high, _somewhat_ . I was also straight-up wrong about the flasks, which I found out through the testing and duels I did, and you're absolutely right, duels will definitely not go on for 3 minutes. I still think 'ordinary' damage is too low, and that weapon arts are just too strong, and _if_ that gets fixed, a lot of the complaints and issues about damage will drop off. I also still think you're talking about a jack-of-all-trades even with the flask and talisman swapping because I can still take those points, put them elsewhere, and do any one thing more effectively than the build you described, and that most people, even people who duel, aren't going to build that way. In short, builds that specialize still offer advantages over the build you've presented, and those advantages are going to attract people. Even with the flavor-of-the-month transient moonlight, you still see a lot of other builds when invading, and I know you've seen plenty of other builds that aren't transient moonlight in your duels. I said what I did about flasks because you mentioned using the flask buffs to meet weapon requirements; if a duel does happen to become an outlier and go on for longer than what the flask would allow (it could happen, easily), then such a build would fall apart in the middle of the fight. If you're not using it to meet weapon requirements, that's a different story. Again, to reiterate, I was still very wrong about their duration, and that new information changes the way I see that argument, if we're not talking about meeting weapon requirements, or we're talking about a duelist who is a menu-swap king. Overall, I've become convinced that right now, we should probably be running a 120 meta. TTK is too high even for normal setups, and going from 40-60 vigor only seems to add one extra hit depending (but a necessary hit) onto that. Going to post this as an edit to the original comment and a separate comment at the end of the chain.
@brandonstracener5076
2 жыл бұрын
Similar thoughts here, so thanks for posting these focused responses!
@CoffeeKitty.
2 жыл бұрын
underrated post. honestly im not gonna have any fun using ANYTHING but melee builds if 125 is the meta in this game. fuck that i can barely make a sorc build function at 150 let alone 125.
@oinkayaya
2 жыл бұрын
The flask stat boost lasts for 3 minutes
@Kizen.
2 жыл бұрын
@@oinkayaya And you only get 1 of them. Cool. Sounds real fun. Until your build stops working again. A dude can turtle up with a greatshield and laugh in your face while you flounder for 180 seconds. Then stomp you into the ground. All while your 3 buffs run out in 30 seconds and you do nothing, since you have 0 fp.
@MidnightPausch
2 жыл бұрын
@@Kizen. in what world does pvp last more than 3 minutes in this game lmao.
@Stygia96
2 жыл бұрын
You'll be at least 150 naturally through progression. I don't see a reason to cap yourself when literally everyone else is gonna be at least 130
@apolloniuspergus9295
2 жыл бұрын
Your video reminds me that of my first playthrough, I had to cast Law of Regression (requires 37 INT) to progress in a questline and was able to do it with 11 INT on a faith build. Using Rune (+5), Talisman (+5), Physik (+10), Twinsage crown (+6), I was able to boost INT by 26 levels. What you can do in this game is really impressive.
@ObviousRises
2 жыл бұрын
you don't keep stats for invasions or summoning, that strategy is useless
@apolloniuspergus9295
2 жыл бұрын
@@ObviousRises Did I ever say that what I did is useful for invasions?
@hhitok9075
2 жыл бұрын
The fact is, i just breached into Mountaintops of the Giant, and i'm already 130... like if I simply play the game to get the items, and doing all bosses, while NEVER FARMING i already got past it...
@TopBurger239
2 жыл бұрын
rebirth
@JohnDoe-fc5si
2 жыл бұрын
@@TopBurger239 Rebirth isn't the answer. if he's 130 and undergoes rebirth he still needs to be 130 when he's finished, there isn't any way to lose levels.
@vuzenshi8667
2 жыл бұрын
Should have spent your souls on titanite instead then.
@IgonDrakeWarrior
2 жыл бұрын
There’ll still be a lot of people to pvp at that level. You could probably still go to 150 and find a lot if people
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
so what? That is not an argument.
@Kizen.
2 жыл бұрын
I wasn't thinking 150. But 135-140 sounds entirely reasonable. You can't cast all those buffs more than once with only 10 mind. You can't even cast more than 2 buffs if at that with 10 mind. Even 20 mind is too low. Flame grant me srength is 28. Golden vow is 47. You literally cannot cast both of those at 10 mind. By saying mind is a useless stat and claiming you can run 3 buffs which eat all your fp and give you no room to use a weapon art, you're literally oversimplifying. Bloodyslash alone will do more damage than a triple buffed idiot with those stats trying to r1 you. Meanwhile, that same idiot has no fp to do anything. Also, this same sort of build was possible at dark souls 3 120. Are we forgetting something here? I had a broken quality build that could run denial, fillianores, had 50 vigor, 40str and 35 dex with 35 endurance, 21 vigor and 12 attunement. While running an avelyn, a UGS, and a straightsword. Like, are we really sitting here and acting like the meta shouldnt be higher when we already had crazier things at the meta in Ds3? Come on now, be realistic. And the same build you are calling out, leaves 0 variety for the game anyways. If you want it to be 120, you wont see anyone casting, because mind stat is horrid, and stat requirements for actual spells are way too high.
@iota-09
2 жыл бұрын
this. on point. all this does is leave out pure casting and hybrid builds in the trashcan unless you rely entirely on a one-trick poiny ability or buff(which is kinda the opposite of what hybrid builds exist for usually), basically it makes the only hybrid builds worth using, the ones that use special non-buffable weapons with multi stat spread like the magic katana(am not yet at that point of the game and don't want excessive spoilers so i don't know what it's called) 120-25 only works if you want a game of melee only with barely if any weapon arts usage at all, but that's not what the meta is really about right now, quite the opposite, without a levelcap, the meta right now is about spamming weapon arts and hybrid builds... BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE GAME WANTS YOU TO DO. or at least, it's extremely inviting with those high softcaps, swift leveling and interchangeble ashes of war.
@ZachIsTerrible
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah I can see 130-135 being good just for the extra 10 stat points into mind for weapon arts or the extra hp or int for casters since at 120 as a sort I hit 30 mind 40 vit stars for MGS and 60 int with a bit too much endurance that can easily be swapped out for more health
@VkrauRJ
2 жыл бұрын
You can chug mana on duels, So if your max FP is enough to cast all spells one by one, you are fine..
@DanFearnz
2 жыл бұрын
You missed his point about all the extras items in the game. Try to optimise a build. You could use a wondrous mix physic to eliminate fp use to put your buffs on. Saving points to go something else
@Kizen.
2 жыл бұрын
@@DanFearnz Physick should be treated as a buff, and there are way more important things than stat increasers. You think to back him when his biggest point is radagon's and marika's which are a flat 12% damage buff in your enemy's favor. What????
@klarsen1042
2 жыл бұрын
"150 builds can do literally everything." Shows an extremely stripped-down build that gives up all talisman slots as well as physick flask in order to add Golden Vow. Calls it a build that does everything in the game. Mate, a lot of your examples look bizarre. A melee/caster hybrid with 10 mind? No, you can't just do everything at 150. It simply enables hybrid builds without forcing you to go with the barest minimum in every stat as well as giving up talisman slots and flask for stats. You say "do anything in the game" as if a 150 build is gonna be 50/50 quality plus a full-fledged sorcerer plus a full lineup of faith buffs. It's just not true. I don't want this game to have a PvP meta where the only thing that makes sense is builds that do one single thing, but that's what it'll be with a 120 meta because people don't want to spend 4 talisman slots as well as a physick flask just to be able to cast a fucking buff.
@lususnaturae881
2 жыл бұрын
Picking one thing to be good at is the essence of building.
@deskmanatee
2 жыл бұрын
facts
@tridentnova9303
2 жыл бұрын
Late to the party, but I agree with this post. Thanks for writing it.
@daydreamiq
2 жыл бұрын
I think the moment when I realised that the pvp stat allocation is fucked was when I saw a certain boss spell that needs 70 Int just to cast
@jif4712
2 жыл бұрын
M O O N
@iota-09
2 жыл бұрын
there's two flaws in all these reasonings though i feel: 1: people are easily reaching and going above 125 in normal play, far FAR easily than in ds3 2: ...is having hybrid builds really that big of a problem? if anything, elden ring seems to push for that, increasing the softcaps, giving such free access to changing up scaling and abilities on nearly everything with the ashes of war and having so many tools that use fp to be used or weapons&spells that scale with multiple stats, it feels like elden ring WANTS people to play with hybrid builds, with at least a 3-stat spread(uneven) this feels like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, rather than try to fit elden ring to what people used to play ds3 like in pvp, how about trying to see if a different type of gameplay works too? otherwise only people who make pvp-specific builds will be at meta level, whereas with ds3 in general you could finish the game with a passable, even if not good, build that could work even at meta level, and all without having to force yourself from not leveling. also as others said: strength scaling doesn't work as you expect, so perhaps we a s a community as a whole should do a bit more datamining before jumping to conclusions about how the game should work in pvp, seeing as we still don't know how the game works as a whole in the first place, not with certainty at least.
@hoxo4641
2 жыл бұрын
I would have to agree. I found it stupid that ds3 pvp forced everyone to play at 120 and then proceed to complain about lack of build variety. Like yeah no shit. No one has the stats to spare. SL 140 has been and always will be the superior duel level
@Gopstop222
2 жыл бұрын
this is true im level 120 and i still havent beaten game and i didnt even farm anything
@CAiNiAC
2 жыл бұрын
150 is roughly were most people have been finishing the game on a natural playthrough. 150 should be minimum for community meta.
@loopygordo
2 жыл бұрын
I finished at 120 and that was just enough for a plain Unga bunga strength build. If I wanted to use any faith buffs to supplement my playstyle I would need a decent amount more mind and faith.
@LSB44446
2 жыл бұрын
People need to accept that this game is NOT built for 120 builds, at least not if you want to enjoy PvE and PvP in NG+. 150-175 is reasonable because a jack of all trades build in these ranges will be weak as shit, because the softcaps are so high, which means not meeting a softcap by 20 points is a significant reduction in AR
@himynameisfin
2 жыл бұрын
This video is pushing it out there a bit, am fully expecting 140-50.
@geosurf9064
2 жыл бұрын
Im personally gonna make all my characters at 150 this time around tired of conforming to the same 2-3 builds to be able to consistently pvp. It seems alot of the community wants 150 this time around and I support that. Ive also seen the most build variety at 150 over my 120 character where I face the same two builds all the time. I'm not gonna fall into the trap like bloodborne where everyone wanted BL 100 and it was a shitshow of bloodtinge builds 1 shotting ppl from start to finish killing the pvp longevity. Not to mention a lot of newcomers will want to be able to do pve ng cycles and pvp consistently and with the massive boost in playerbase this time around I think its smarter to try and retain the growth then it is to try and hold on to some non existent competitive nature of the game where even the creator says that pvp is like a side game and is only for enjoyment and fun
@aachen-lr2172
2 жыл бұрын
Seeing similar builds at lower SL is a problem with balance though and hopefully this game will get a little more support than DS3, a higher SL is just going to lead to dumb cookie cutter builds that can do anything. That being said, if you're a more casual player a higher SL will be better for you as you'll be out of the range for the good min-max players
@geosurf9064
2 жыл бұрын
@@aachen-lr2172 the same builds show up at those meta levels every game the only time there is diversity is when you go a bit higher. All meta level 120 builds are the same u take a weapon and u put a buff on it. 25 points in faith or int is not gonna allow u to cast a meaningful spell that does good dmg much less every buff Scott talks about using with base FP without using blue flasks. 30 extra points in this game doesnt allow ppl to do everything and to say it does is just a older mentality and thinking it works like the other dark souls games scaling wise. Its fine either way tho cause enough ppl are pushing for the higher level this time that it wont matter. Being good in these games comes down to how good the netcode is for the day knowing gaps and using the strongest weapon that takes advantage of those things each game has some new mechanics u have to learn as well. I just dnt get how ppl 4 games later still want the same stale meta. Always love the good ole casual statement thrown in one of the reasons I love this community.
@aachen-lr2172
2 жыл бұрын
@@geosurf9064 like I said, that's an issue of balance. Meta players will pick the strongest thing and if this game is supported and better balanced in the future there can be variety. There is variety at higher levels because those players tend to be more casual so don't care or understand what's strong, if the meta level was higher there would be one cookie cutter build using magic buffs to make there melee build even stronger. Edit: casual isn't an insult so stop being precious, if you want to win every duel with the most effective weapon you're not casual, if you want to have fun and enjoy the huge sandbox of weapons and spells you're more casual
@geosurf9064
2 жыл бұрын
@@aachen-lr2172 it is very much used as a insult in the souls community more so than its not. Min maxing in these games is not hard especially when u r forced into a limited spot.
@SpliffyHusk
2 жыл бұрын
@@aachen-lr2172 there are waaaaay more cookie cutter twink builds at low levels. 150 will have way more variety, cause so many weapons and spells unlock.
@Nervano13
2 жыл бұрын
Elden Ring has more variety and gameplay options than ever, including much higher soft caps. I don’t understand the desire to keep such a low meta cap, we aren’t playing DS3, this is a new game with new caps and weapons, so treat it as such. Bump it up a bit to give people freedom to work with the awesome variety this game offers. Plus it will keep PvP more interesting when you aren’t restricting people’s level to this extent, providing far higher variety of opponents and strategies.
@LSB44446
2 жыл бұрын
People don't want change. This game simply wasn't balanced for PvP
@valandil988
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah 120 isn't possible for good casters. You can have 70 int and vig 60 and thats all your points and most. 70 int is needed to make best use of the scaling for magic.
@evil_dwight
2 жыл бұрын
No one is going to "enjoy the variety" in pvp. Everyone will just flock to the most broken hybrid builds like high dex with moonveil and annoying magic spam with heavy armor. How does that make pvp engaging or fun? If you ever tried to pvp in the previous souls games at higher levels like 200 or 300 you'd see the same garbage. There's a reason that 125 was the magic number. It forced you to be stingy with your stat allocation so you could really only spec into one build and still have enough vigor and endurance.
@just_pleb8977
2 жыл бұрын
@@evil_dwight i have been invading at level 150 and its way less cancer than level 80 some people still use meta weapon but you're generally facing wacky fun build
@evil_dwight
2 жыл бұрын
@@just_pleb8977 wacky fun? how is getting ganked by 3 lionel or bull-goat wearing mages with moonveil or some other broken weapon even fun? of the 3 hours I did I had ONE invasion that wasn't complete aids and it was some solo host doing duels for fun. I had more fun invading at sl15 because at least the overleveled phantoms get their fp nerfed so they cant spam spells forever.
@gasparm.2711
2 жыл бұрын
"You don't need mind whatsoever". So you are not just saying what level should be the cap, but also how we should play the game. The duelist community is not only gate keeping trash, it's also boring as fuck.
@theowolfendale7675
2 жыл бұрын
How on earth have you come to this conclusion, he never said what you need to build for to PvP.
@achaoticprince5114
2 жыл бұрын
I think once a few balance patches shape out pvp a meta lvl should be decided. Just too much stuff can once shot players even at 50 and i think 60 vigor in some cases.
@sneakymitchell7802
2 жыл бұрын
But bosses can one shot you? Don’t forget about that
@achaoticprince5114
2 жыл бұрын
@@sneakymitchell7802 You don't really include pve for pvp optimized meta. If a boss has a one shot move and it's not the bs Maleina has then it's fine.
@PowerSenpai
2 жыл бұрын
@@achaoticprince5114 It should matter since you can't reasonably expect everyone that wants to partake in the pvp to make a seperate character for it. Most people will want to be able to do their PVE and PVP with the same character without suffering due to it too much.
@hungryforheaven5641
2 жыл бұрын
@@PowerSenpai What exactly are you rolling with that would have you suffer through the game? 🤔 you’re choosing to make this difficult. There are plenty of ways to go about beating the bosses in this game.
@Fishster
2 жыл бұрын
@@PowerSenpai There are respecs.
@fightedmealready2692
2 жыл бұрын
So the build you referenced in the beginning cannot do everything at 150. Clearly can not use most colossal weapons, pretty sure theres dex weapons that require more than 45 dex, no magic, shitty miracles except for some buffs, no arcane spells or weapons whatsoever, literally didnt put anything into mind so you couldn’t spam spells even if u wanted, and at 30 endurance you have to waste a talisman slot if you wanna wear super heavy armor maybe even waste two if you’re trying to use a big weapon as well. I really dont get how everyone is saying 150 gives you everything, like i get 120 is traditional but i feel like people forget this is a different game. Also i dont get why people freak out if a melee build can cast 1 or two early class spells, thats not having everything thats just variety in the build. Unless a melee pure is casting level 70 int spells then we have a problem. Lastly man ive been hearing a lot of people say you dont need 70 int to use the moon spell because of various reasons (most being the req is stupid high) and im not a mage but if someone wants to use that spell, that is there choice to do so and yes i do think we should allow people to have a pvp meta where they can use all the tools of the build the way they want to use them, its not fair that a int dude has to go minimum 50 vig and 70 int to use those spells, thats 120 right there with no points into anything else including mind. So yah 150 meta for the win ;3
@gimli1467
2 жыл бұрын
Best Comment ever Bruh 🤙🏼
@FarhanNetizen_62
2 жыл бұрын
Simple reasons to be in sl 150: - completing the game will make you earn to level up more than 125, so holding in 125 is limiting everyone in pure gameplay to be in pvp meta. - vigor need to be around 55-60 to make sure no one one shot you no matter built you want to make melee, mage, etc. - Melee need to gain advantage from strong heavier armor by levelling more in endurance for equip load - pure mage caster need to have more than 30 mind(160fp) because max cerulean flask recovery is 220fp - hybrid with softcap stat is viable, while 125 even limiting pure caster to trash with 30 mind.
@GhoulishGourd
2 жыл бұрын
I intentionally stayed lower so Invasions would potentially be more interesting and not just min/max fests, but even in the 60 +/- range it’s just a sea of Moonveils and Sword of Night and Flame.
@grimsage5809
2 жыл бұрын
80's plagued with much the same, plus scarlet rot dragonbreath and madness builds.
@Temptest09
2 жыл бұрын
150+ invasions for me have been fun I still see the meta slave weapons here and there but more variety than the lower levels for sure
@IceNInja42
2 жыл бұрын
Its cause at lower level those weapons are busted strong. You dont need as much of an investment for them to still hit hard.
@DoingFavors
2 жыл бұрын
@@IceNInja42 I'm genuinely curious if you can spell parry the moon veil, it's tough to pull off but with the right shield it could be hilarious.
@shadow9743
2 жыл бұрын
@@DoingFavors you can
@brandonstracener5076
2 жыл бұрын
Completely setting aside pure casters undermines the persuasive value of this video. I would highly recommend considering what level would permit a build that needed to invest into Mind to have a chance. Optimize for us a pure sorcerer or pure faith caster and run them in duels. Show us success with the builds that this video completely ignores and leaves behind. It’s hard to argue that a lower SL encourages build diversity when it excludes huge chunks of the game (and playerbase, but that’s a separate issue). If we ignore pure casters entirely, we can keep SL low out of a fear that otherwise, non-casters will obtain a middling Faith and/or Intelligence score that will lead to them having a few spells they can’t sustain for that long because we have assumed Mind will have zero investment. That’s not as helpful to the discussion as it might seem to someone who assumes casters basically won’t be a thing (or can’t be a thing). Show us success with the builds that are going to desperately cry out for points at SL 125. Maybe you will find that 135 or 140 helps those builds, and perhaps the world won’t end if non-casters have 135 or 140. Otherwise, I think the PvP community ends up remaining anemic as most players realize that any serious casting build is excluded from serious PvP and that their organic progression in the game has them over leveled anyway (the latter again being a separate issue).
@stupidanon5941
2 жыл бұрын
Most serious caster builds are already excluded from pvp just for relying on magic; you can't really kill people with magic in this game in duels, if they're paying attention, because they will just roll everything. I say this as someone who plays pure spellcasters.
@Dexrazor
2 жыл бұрын
@@stupidanon5941 It’s not really about winning, it’s about being able to play the build in the first place
@h4zrd-rs252
2 жыл бұрын
@@stupidanon5941 You can do that against melee weapons too
@vt4979
2 жыл бұрын
What? As far as I know he exclusively plays pure caster builds on his invasion stream? Who told you that you can’t build a caster build at SL125??? An Astrologer with 40 Vigor, 30 Mind, 15 Endurance and 70 Intelligence only puts you at SL112, and that is NOT including using soreseals which give you bonus 20 levels. And you do not need 70 Intelligence most of the time.
@alafosca5724
2 жыл бұрын
@@vt4979 That's absolutely true
@Kara_Pabuc
2 жыл бұрын
No, thank you. This video is going to harm the PVP community so bad that you're going to regret it but anyways... First, why do you account Wonderous Mix? I bet community will settle on not using it on duels and the reason is that it doesn't replenish when you kill someone. Meaning that in a Fight Club where you duel enemy after another, your build stop functioning at one point. Dismiss that idea. Just as Estus, Wonderous Mix will not be allowed in duels. Second, the mind stat. I don't think base level mind is enough, giving the fact that we will incorporate weapon skills more in fighting - more so than DS3. Suggesting that people should stop at base level mind also suggesting that people should not use weapon skills and thus making the combat much more boring akin to DS3. At this point why don't we go back DS3? 150 sounds good considering the fact that we raise vigor from 40 to 60. That basically means 20 level over DS3 meta.
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
>giving the fact that we will incorporate weapon skills more in fighting - more so than DS3 Fact? What fact? You mean your intention? Why should you be allowed to spam weapon arts?
@Kara_Pabuc
2 жыл бұрын
@@golDroger88 R1's are weaker in this game and R2s are slow. Weapon skill are super effective. Didn't you play the game, pal?
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
@@Kara_Pabuc What exactly is your argument? That weapon arts are good and therefore you should have infinite access to them? If you wanna do that then you have to sacrifice something else, like life or endurance, that's fine for me. If you don't have to sacrifice anything that is not a build.
@nicholasgraves3149
2 жыл бұрын
Playing a caster is almost impossible at lvl 125. The weapons require 60 int, and you need 30+ mind to be able to cast more than 3 spells before chugging. There are hybrid melee weapons with 72 combined stat requirement split across 4 stats. If all you want is to have Tekken style duels with basic weapons on Limgrave square, then 125 is fine, but this game simply isn't built the same as DS3. You're excluding like 75% of the game's tools by setting the limit so low. You'll see the same 5 weapons at 125, and you won't see anybody casting.
@bigwillicus4035
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, this guy makes some decent points but the thing is at 150 you can do a lot of things, but you cant excel at everything. You have to weigh out your gear, talisman usage, and playstyle much more accordingly to your build to be the most efficient. I've stayed at 150 for about 4 days now and specced 3 different builds that all played really differently despite having the same level.
@koopakinkreet
2 жыл бұрын
I think this guy is sleeping in the new higher caps, he’s worried everyone will be the same but at level 125 everyone will be at level 200 you open up to way more choices.
@ThePolarpop
2 жыл бұрын
my caster build feels 90-95% finished at Sl130 right now tho..70 int.. 38 vigor 32mind 22dex 18str like.. 20end? (the amount of stamina even w/o talismans aiding it is nuts in this game) etc...and honestly i dont need 70 int it just feels cool having access to all spells..i dont use any spell over 68 and theres tools to get to 68 if i wanted ot stop at like...50-60. I think 135 is a really solid middle point of you dont feel completely hamfisted on your build but you also dont feel like you arent making ANY compromises.. the thing is you SHOULD be making compromises IMO...not have top damage AND hp AND access to everything AND high armor AND unlimited stamina AND unlimited FP/Mana...you get the jist. 120 feels awkward, but 150 starts feeling awkward the opposite way so..id be down for 135 lol.
@ThePolarpop
2 жыл бұрын
addendum: havent finished the game but im about to take on the malenia fight im near end of haligtree right now-for context of progress..and thats with having explored alot and not losing alot of souls so 130 already almost feels starting to overlevel-y the areas.
@ThePolarpop
2 жыл бұрын
@@koopakinkreet 200 is ridiculous, what?? even 150 feels 10000000000x more viablely open than that. 200 = access to everything basically.. Near most/all str, dex, int, ANd faith requiresments and just have everything + heavy armor and good base stats lol
@Derpadeedooda
2 жыл бұрын
I think he's missing that even at 60 Vigor you get one shotted
@BearManley
2 жыл бұрын
I just don't see how this game can support a 125 meta. It just doesn't make sense. The soft caps are much higher. And Even just organically playing the game anyone not a STR build (the added defense) will struggle just to beat the game at just 120-125. You just take so much DAMAGE in this game. I'm sitting here watching several well known streamers attempt to clear the game while staying 120-125, and they struggling just to beat some bosses for 5 HOURS!!!! Because they had to play FLAWLESSLY, and never get hit until they won. But the majority of people that play this game are not going to do something like that. Ignoring vigor just isn't an option. You take a LOT of damage in this game. And at MINIMUM everyone needs 40 vigor just to survive attacks and not be one shot! Ignoring mind isn't an option. EVERYTHING USES FP!! You have more spells than we have ever had. You have more weapon arts than we have ever had. And we are supposed to USE them!! There are so many weapons that require 3 different stats just to use!! We have spells that require higher stats!! We have higher stat requirements higher FP usage, and a need for more HP than we ever have. The stats in Elden Ring are just different. They are higher all around. I am 140 as a hybrid build, and I have not hit soft cap on anything. I'm at 70 Faith. Where I have not reached the soft cap for my spells!! I am at 45 Vigor. And I have not reached the soft cap on vigor. I have sacrificed both Health and spell damage. My mind is at 38. Which is equivalent to ONE flask chug. My dex is at 15 so so I can wield the blasphemous blade. I sacrificed dex just to put something into endurance so I can wear descent armor. My main dmg source is spells, and my fire weapon art. and i STILL TAKE HIGH DAMAGE! I get hit like a truck in the later zones in PVE. And in PVP I still take a good amount of dmg that seems fair. But I'm still in danger of being 2 shot from a Moon Blade. If folks want a 120-125 meta for fight club, where you sit around summoning each other.... sure. Knock yourself out. But for invasions?? That's just not going to cut it anymore. The overall GAME naturally supports something higher than that based simply on stat requirements, spell requirements, and the damage you now take. I think 140 is even good enough to stop at in general. of course if you wish to be lower level to invade lower level areas, sure. "150 can do everything!" Yet he goes on to show something at 10 mind.... What... is this 150 player who can "do everything" not going to be using weapon arts? Not going to cast spells? Chug a flask at every weapon art? Why on earth would anyone sacrifice so much FP in THIS game to be a "Havel monster" that's going to get blown up by weapon arts and spells?
@jasonbuccellato8196
2 жыл бұрын
Try RL 200, I get pvp all day and the game balances itself out so much more when your defensive stats/level match the weapon scaling. It's good to have options and variety in one build, despite what might be implied in this video.
@VkrauRJ
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, its not like this game supports invasions anyway. Always outnumbered, outleveled, out-upgraded, with the blues autosummon, and with no limit to how many can cycle after you start killing them. All that, and the path to bosses being very short, so the host enters the fog gate before you load-in. Yes there are exceptions, but its too little exceptions. The Level meta, as you said, is for duels mostly. You don't need to beat the game to play pvp. You don't need to beat a single boss to get the duel itens. You only need to beat bosses to get itens for builds. If you can't beat the end game bosses for the weapons, armor or whatever, you can, and people have done it before, just spawn it in, or trade with someone and reload a backup to dupe the weapon.
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
Why do people confuse pve for pvp? You are using arguments that are valid only for pve but are invalid for pvp.
@BearManley
2 жыл бұрын
@@golDroger88 Why do people like to pretend the only place PVP happens is in fight clubs? If you plan on INVASIONS, then the level most people will be WILL MATTER!! If you plan on invading later zones, then the levels most players will be will MATTER! And ONLY the most hardcore of hardcore players will limit themselves, and throw themselves at a boss for 4 hours in the name of beating the game as level 100-120. And whether it's PVE or PVP the argument is the same. This is NOT DARK SOULS!! And VIGOR and MIND are NOT options, if you want to play the game like ELDEN RING! Stats are higher! DAMAGE is higher! WEAPONS require more stats, some of them requiring 3 different stats just to hold. Some spells require 70. Like I said... if you want the meta for a fight club to be 120-125 then go have fun. You want to artificially keep stats low, and kill build diversity, and limit the use of Weapon arts and spells in a game built around weapon art and spell use, then knock yourself out. If you want your fight club to be nothing but r1 spams, waiting for roll catching, and chugging a flask after just 3 weapon arts or spells, go knock yourself out. But not only is that dumb, but it's BORING!!! And the idea that a 150 can "do everything" is STUPID and false!! EVERYONE should be able to hit the soft cap in ONE main attack stat of 80, AND at minimum have 40 vigor!!! With the only exception is you plan to do a SPLIT build!! 40 vigor is already SACRIFICING 20 VIGOR LEVELS, so I don't want to hear that someone with 40 vigor isn't sacrificing enough and needs to be lower. 40 Vigor is the absolute MINIMUM everyone must have to not be one shot in this game. So... If I wish to have ONE main attack stat at soft cap on a NON split build and I put Faith at 80, and put my vigor to 40. THAT ALREADY PUTS YOU AT LEVEL 105-112 depending on your starting class! So you mean to tell me, you're supposedly to be left with just 13-20 levels to use if you want to be a CASTER?!?!? I have already willingly sacrificed 20 levels of vigor!!!! What else am I supposed to sacrifice? Let's pick my weapon of choice. Let's go with the Blasphemous Blade... I need 15 Dex and at least 15 STR to two hand it. So we are at Vigor 40 Faith 80 Strength 15 Dex 15 I have ONE soft cap here. And I am already at between level 115-125 DEPENDING on my starting class. So in your world, I'm supposed to have 0-10 levels to play with? But of course as a mainly caster I need magic to use. And unless I want to stick with baby starter spells, my spells have high magic costs. But of course 11 default mind won't do. Let's bump my mind to 30, JUST so I can cast some spells, and not have to chug a flask after 4 casts of decent spells that aren't just lightning spear!!! I am not at 133-140!! But on MY build since I did not want to go beyond 140, I sacrificed further!!! I took 10 away from my main damage stat and left it at 70!! I put 5 more into vigor for 45, and put the rest into endurance. So WHERE am I some "Havel monster"??? I have not hit soft cap on ANY stat!! What else am I supposed to sacrifice just because you people hate mages, and weapon arts, the very foundation of Elden ring?! How am I not sacrificing here? Even if I'm not a magic build. Let's say I am PURE dex.... ONE soft cap in dex, and 60 vigor is ALREADY 121-128!!!!!! And that was the very BASIS of the old meta... allowing you to hit soft cap in at least ONE of your main damage stats!!! There is LITERALLY no reason to stay at 120 unless you want boring fight clubs where everyone is artificially kept low, just because you want to limit build diversity because you can't let go of old games this is not.
@wolfcatcombo5859
2 жыл бұрын
I see where you're coming from, but like you said at the beginning of the video. Elden Ring is not Dark Souls and the game is still being balanced. We couldn't see metas like what you described in previous games because it was dramatically more difficult to level in them, not because because people didn't want to use them. Elden Ring is much more forgiving in this regard and NG+ is more accessible than ever because of it. There are many benefits for going higher than Lvl120 in Elden Ring and I think we should stop comparing the game to Dark Souls for now and just let the community come to its natural state without being influenced by the previous titles. If Elden Ring's meta evolves to look nothing like DS, so be it. We have to let this game and it's community spread their wings. Even if people go to lvl200 on their main save, you can make a new character and get them to lvl120 in a few hours if you want to limit yourself for a 1v1 event/meeting. And the new Multiplayer settings make organizing things like that easier than ever. That kind of freedom is what I love about this game. Thanks for the great video. It makes me happy that we have such an active community and such dedicated content creators. Cheers!
@Sazed0
2 жыл бұрын
@Essie Aydan you can organize related thoughts into these things called "paragraphs" instead of spacing them into separate lines btw.
@dev_vg
2 жыл бұрын
I think youre glossing over his opinion and points, and the whole reason for a meta in this topic is dueling. You have a good and valid opinion, but its not relative to what hes talking about
@notffreak
2 жыл бұрын
@@dev_vg yeah, that’s what I thought too. You shouldn’t be allowed to do everything in PvP, like Scott said: you’re just a guy who can do everything, a 2300 HP havel monster, 50 STR/DEX, and besides that you can triple buff. There is no honor nor fun in that in my opinion.
@trashcat7501
2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry but I think you're missing the actual reason why the "meta" was made in the first place back in demon souls on the ps3. It doesn't matter which game it's in, the concept is the same.... The reason the meta was even thought about was an answer to a problem the community faced..... at what soul level would allow the most variety of builds to be viable. If the sl was too low you'd only see pure builds, if it's too high you'll run into the "same builds"....well in ds it turned into pure builds turned hybrids. But you get the point. Meta is a sweet spot that allows the most amount of playstyles to be viable
@wolfcatcombo5859
2 жыл бұрын
@@trashcat7501 I understand that. What I am saying is that we don't know what that sweet spot is. The game was in its infancy when these discussions were happening. Balance patches are still being released and we are learning about new combinations constantly. How can we possibly claim to know what that sweet spot is, as you defined it, if we don't even have a grasp of how many playstyles there are. It is impossible to define a percentage if you don't have an understanding of the totality of possibilities that exist. This is what I mean by treating Elden Ring like Dark Souls. There are MORE viable builds in Elden Ring because of these talismans, attribute requirement break points, and weapon combinations. All I'm saying is that we should let the game reach some kind of equilibrium before we start definitively saying that things should be done a specific way. Let Elden Ring be Elden Ring.
@holokom3330
2 жыл бұрын
My Take on this: A) 1) Vigor 60 : Agree. 2) Mind 10: Disagree. Different to Darksouls this game really encourages Weaponarts and Spells mixed into builds. SO put it closer to 20. 3) Endurance 25: Disagree kinda. Sure it works for light Armor builds, but if you wanna wear stuff like the Tree Sentinel Set, even with a Talisman, you need closer to 35+, unless you are fine with fatroll. 4) Strength:Agree 5) Dex: Agree 6/7/8) Faith/Arcane /Intelligenz Base... no. Most weapons in the game have some sort of "Mental stat" Requirement. You definitly cant do all 3, but getting at least 1 to like 20 and another to like 15 so you can use more than the baseline Weapons is definitly required i feel. B) People might actually want to complete the game while doing pvp. And since there are certain weapons behind certain bosses, and the end areas are for lv 150.... i think Level 150 is perfectly good. It gives you just enough stats to build anything you want, and you can complete the game at the same time.
@cosmic5681
2 жыл бұрын
You can beat the game at any level. You can beat Elden Beast at RL1, RL120, or RL652. It doesn’t matter. Why do people keep pushing this narrative. Basically sounds like “the game wouldn’t let me progress until I leveled up! I was forced to!” This isn’t Symphony Of The Night. You don’t have to level up
@SaberRiko
2 жыл бұрын
Don't disagree with everything here, but I definitely do on endurance, I only need 26 with Erdtree+2 to wear full tree sentinel and have a moonveil, carian regal, and an endgame sacred seal. With any of the actual good weight talismans you can go a lot lower, I went through most of the game with banished knight armor on a mage because of that. Not even mentioning the endurance buffing stuff.
@holokom3330
2 жыл бұрын
@@SaberRiko update: Found a better Endurance Talisman, but for using my Towershield+Greatspear i still need at least 30.
@crankpatate3303
2 жыл бұрын
@@cosmic5681 yea, but 150 - ish is pretty natural and as original post mentioned the late game areas are designed for lvl150. Makes sense, that most casual players will end up at 150-ish level and these people still want to PvP without creating a new character and keeping that one at 120.
@hobosorcerer
2 жыл бұрын
Hard disagree here. Your stat considerations completely ignore the possibility of builds that branch outside of what's been considered meta in DS3. When the game gives players so many tools (all of which can't be used at once, so don't give me this "every build will be the same" line), then why are you insistent on players to only use a narrow set of tools? "That moon spell you're never going to use" is indicative of the problems with your thought process. You act like the build you present can use everything, and then ignore all the stuff it can't use because you don't think it's viable. This is your brain on meta.
@CAiNiAC
2 жыл бұрын
Well said.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
It's not that I don't think it's viable. I know it isn't. You will never, ever hit a remotely decent player with the moon in a duel ever
@joondori21
2 жыл бұрын
Scott Jund true. It’s not a baseless conjecture. I mean has anyone ever hit someone with it in duels?
@AetherMomon
2 жыл бұрын
In my play through of Elden Ring I defeated optional bosses, world bosses, did a lot of side quests, & explored each region until I got bored. By the time I defeated the fire giant I was level 120. I have barely touched the underground stuff either, also I did absolutely no rune farming whatsoever. By my estimation I should be level 135 to 140 by the end of the game. Also, the soft caps for levels are much higher in Elden Ring. Imo, it seems kind of silly to keep the same meta level as previous souls games in a game that expects you to be a much higher level by end game.
@lorencozad8271
2 жыл бұрын
are we forgetting about pure casters and dragon magic? we had pure casters in 3 so its not an insane idea. certain builds are not possible with 125 and we are completely forgetting about using arcane and other types for occult, especially since they don't do damage splits anymore. there is a lot more to want to go and yes, you absolutely will see that moon spell because it hits like a truck and also has SOLID tracking. there is so much there for casters in PVP now, its not going to be dedicated to dumbass sword type builds that only do buffs and stuff. its just not going to happen with the MASS of spells we have now, especially with quick cast spell. i feel as though this is extremely closed minded with what YOUR idea of the meta due to past games and not thinking that there is more variety in spells than all the games combined in this one. that makes a massive difference
@sandrobot809
2 жыл бұрын
but poise
@lorencozad8271
2 жыл бұрын
@@sandrobot809 so poise alone makes the entire idea logical to you? A single stat that at those levels you're not getting the caster types and pures that I mentioned getting huge poise without a detriment to other stats. You may also mention the stat boosting items like the dude said but no one ran them other than fap and chain which were only used because they were so much better than other effects. This game is COMPLETELY different in that regard and no one will be using a slot for a plus five to a stat when they could be getting a percent boost to their damage type on all four slots. No build videos are showing anything with stat boosting gear, that's mainly leveling talismans to squeeze your stats to use a weapon. Not gonna happen in a setting where you min/max a character, especially with cap changes and new high requirements on spells and weapons
@lorencozad8271
2 жыл бұрын
@@sandrobot809 to make a slight correction, the ONLY talisman that will be used regularly that gives a +5 is the millicent bad ending reward because it also has the pontif eye effect. Not being used for the +5 but being used for the stacking of the effect with the rotted talisman
@kabrozkabroz
2 жыл бұрын
??? Pure casters are viable in Elden Ring even at 125. I am a pure caster at 125. Like, what is your point?
@theguildunknownii9044
2 жыл бұрын
Im playing pure caster at 120. Thats with 80 int, 25 mind and 50 vigor. I can lose 10 int for 60 vigor if i want to but i want to play glass cannon while using both marika soreseal and magic scorpion charm. I swear to god people like you just want SL150 because you wanna go hybrid into dex or str while maintaining 80 int which is NOT how a SL meta should work. You have to choose one or another. And before you say something about how i have very little Mind, its not, you just have to use your spells meaningfully and not spam them like every scrub mage out there.
@Raezra
2 жыл бұрын
The issue i struggled with thinking about is that I want to keep my level at a reasonable spot, but I also want to do funny mixed stats builds where I put points into multiple stats because a weapon I want to use requires it. But of course im not being 100% efficient so I'm going to do worse than someone who is the same level but "properly" building their character.
@TH3G3RM4NGUY
2 жыл бұрын
yeah he is failing to realize if people want a jack of all trades build they'll be master of none. Someone who also goes 150 and hyper focuses their build will do better in different scenarios with different focused builds.
@josephgoebbels1605
2 жыл бұрын
@@TH3G3RM4NGUY OR people will figure out the most efficient spells and miracles and minmax the shit out of their extra 25 faith and 18 int, and then every single build will have tears of denial as baseline.
@TheMasterOfSheeps
2 жыл бұрын
@@josephgoebbels1605 lucky tears isn't in the game, also as if people didn't do that at 125
@Raezra
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheMasterOfSheeps I mean there's that one tear thing for the Mixed Physick that auto heals you when low, which is similar to tears.
@TheMasterOfSheeps
2 жыл бұрын
@@Raezra yeah but it doesn't require faith tho so his point doesn't work
@tototriceps
2 жыл бұрын
I am starting to think the meta level should be more like rl 115 haha
@TitaNiUm-NaZ
2 жыл бұрын
sure yeah … lets make the meta revolves around melee alone as always … and the poor casters should always be squishy so you can 2 shots them … and laugh at how unviable pure casters is … the hypocrisy is just insane LOL
@tadeuariasvillares784
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
feel free to watch me play a pure caster in my last video or anytime when i stream and win 95% of my duels. i have 1800 hp btw
@marvinragen
2 жыл бұрын
What? WHAT? Lmao
@theexploderofworlds3855
2 жыл бұрын
While i agree the moon is trash for duels because of the cast time, you would be surprised how often people eat it during invasions. It must be harder to dodge than it looks ive been launching moons at people the past few nights and it just lands, and kills.
@brotherfrank3873
2 жыл бұрын
Got hit by a moon about 2 seconds before the projectile was even near me last night, probably has something to do it with it. Just feels weird to dodge sometimes.
@pabz3389
2 жыл бұрын
Moon is useless in duels but has some utility in invasions it's movement and aoe is a little awkward. It very much reminds me of Great soul dregs from ds3.
@fullfildreamz
2 жыл бұрын
I think it might be because the project speed seems to increase (maybe exponentially) the further it flies. Honestly I love that spell so much. I didn't think there'd be something that could rival comet azur in awe factor.
@jinwoo7378
2 жыл бұрын
@@fullfildreamz if they do, that damage better be lowered. Lol, its slow because with a optimal build, that one shots you.
@manafon5398
2 жыл бұрын
I heavily disagree, Ranni's Moon is a free duel winner for me, not only it often debuffs enemies magic resistance regardless if it lands or not, it is very easy to use at the start of a duel since melee users will be far away and the moon eats up any spell that goes through it as well, it lands only 40% of the time but when it does you pretty much got a free win.
@TheMehkey
2 жыл бұрын
Here are SOME of your mistakes: 1. Soullevel meta is importent for Invasions, because when people go into NG+ the Invasions will happen at this level 2. Mind is not a useless stat at all, any caster build needs it to be able to throw out more then 3 spells before refilling with estus! THIS will increase the level for many builds. 3. You neglected Endurance, which is mandatory for Str-Builds to swing Ultras and wear heavy armor with poise to get hyperarmor. THIS will increase the level for many builds. 4. You claimed, that you aknowledge the new caps for damage stats, then you give you dex build only 60 instead of 80 dex?????? At this point it gets clear, that you are highly biased. Going for the real cap will increase the level for many builds. 5. Your build example is flawed. For a quality build with the new caps you go 50 str 50 dex. This will increase the level aswell. Of corse physical builds tend to put exces points into endurance. Thats how its allways been. You claim you want build variety. On low levels casters will not thrive, you are starving build variety this way. Power stancing ultras wont happen on your level aswell btw. 6. Casting with 34 intelligence.... tickles.... 7. Have you ever played a caster build.... ever? In an invasion? 8. Some spells cost 70 intelligence and some gear costs 60 points to even use it, exactly. Do we need to talk about build variety again? Basicly all you are saying is: "My Moonveil Katana build dosnt need it, so you cannt have it", which makes you a jerk.
@viktoriyaserebryakov2755
2 жыл бұрын
I managed to squeeze in a 100 poise strength build into a level 45 character. You can easily specialise strength in heavy armour by 80. 150 is not necessary and so far all my invasions at 150 are just aids. It's weapon art and spell spam of twenty different kinds. Why even bother to rely on melee.
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755 the game basically revolves around weapon arts. Why do you think you get so many? Am I just supposed to use it once or twice and then chug a flask? That's ridiculous. If a spell caster is spamming, pull out the tree sentinel shield and deflect that shit. They literally give you options to counter almost any build. Moonvale katana can be countered by the ash of war for shields that parry magic back at the user. This game encourages you to think smarter not harder. If you don't want to see weapon arts so often then go back to ds3.
@vuzenshi8667
2 жыл бұрын
Your take is cringe: 1. Invaders will have characters different soul levels, twinked out to invade; who cares what the average NG+ players' soul level is. 2. He clarified the point you made after he said mind was useless. Stop straw-manning him you smooth brain. 3. People with strength builds that need high endurance shouldn't also be able to cast spells, you can make a strength build within the 120 to 125 level range. 4. The first softcap for dex is at 58, going any higher is redundant unless the meta soul level is higher than 120 to 125. 5. Refer back to point "4.", you don't need 80 levels in STR and DEX to have a quality build. 6. He brought his INT to 34 to demonstrate that he had left over levels at level 150 to dump into any stat. He was not giving an example of a mage build. Get a fucking grip. 7. Refer back to point "6." 8. If you want to use spells that cost 70 INT then you deserve to have a downside in your build. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, if you want 70 INT you have to skimp out on other stats; otherwise (like the guy says in the video) you won't have a build, you will be able to do everything.
@rickkcir2151
2 жыл бұрын
This wasn’t a very convincing argument. Your hypothetical build wasn’t anywhere near the soft caps for strength, dex, int, and faith (btw, the soft caps for damage are 80, not 60). So yeah, they can “do” anything, but at piss poor damage compared to if they just went all in on a specific build. Stat boosting equipment doesn’t matter either, most players prioritize fashion over function. I played an unhealthy amount of DS2 PvP. Did I see Chester top, engraved gauntlet, Havel legging and helm builds? Of course, but not commonly enough to be much of an issue. Players are people with free will, and most people aren’t simple minded meta slaves. I get why you might think that after so much DBD, but players are meta slaves there cause there’s no alternative. Elden Ring has a shit ton of alternatives for weapons, spells, armor, and builds. You’re still going to see a wide variety of clear and diverse builds at 150 and your going to see meta slaves. It’s the nature of PvP games. What you’re not going to see is all of one or the other. Plus, I’d rather see a lot of people running builds to there full strength than gimped builds at 120. For DS3 120 was the meta cause a build was practically done at 120. You reached the soft caps for pretty much everything you were building. That’s not the case in Elden Ring, at 120 you haven’t reached the softcaps, in most cases you aren’t even close. So why should that be the meta? Why should we purposely abstain from actually finishing our builds?
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
Dude that is my entire point. They will do worse damage than a build that fully gouges a damage stat because thats the entire point of a build. You shouldn't get to gouge every damage stat and also have max health and also have heavy armor and also buff yourself three times and also- etc. You can still run 80 DEX if you want you just cant be a ninjaflipping Havel anymore because the entire point of builds is opportunity cost.
@rickkcir2151
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund So what’s the problem then? It seems to me the opportunity cost for being able to be a ninja flipping Havel with full health that can buff is your damage will still be less than a build that went all in on strength faith, quality, int dex, etc. tanky builds with gimped damage doesn’t sound very meta defining.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
@@rickkcir2151 not true because the havel can hit the softcaps for damage and any points past that are basically meaningless.
@rickkcir2151
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund No they can’t, softcaps for damage is 80. Even if it were 60 your str, dex, int, and faith weren’t even close to 60. The damage will be lower.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
@@rickkcir2151 Okay here's me hitting a dex cap of 80 at level 116 while also being able to triple buff: gyazo.com/21fb4701458438ea3586533394d0638b +10 Faith Tear, +10 Dex Tear, +5 faith talisman, +5 dex talisman, HP talisman, Erdtree Favor. I can now triple buff with Golden Vow, Flame Grant me Strength, and whatever weapon enchant I want.
@Aidian1
2 жыл бұрын
150 meta level. Easy to reach and Most of the shit in the game is for Hybrid builds and soft caps are way higher, embrace it. 150 isn't a jack of all trades havel monster. It's a spellblade who doesn't have to gimp their vig and Stam stats.
@pragmat1k
2 жыл бұрын
My opinion on spells blades is they'd usually want minimum reqs for their weapon, use a Raw infusion and pump the rest into their buffing and spell stat. I'm still not sure why Raw isn't an infusion option in Elden Ring because now it does encourage going hard on both your physical and spell stats leading to a higher level.
@Ben_of_Milam_Music
2 жыл бұрын
@@pragmat1k mixed damage type infusions are much better in elden ring than in ds3
@pragmat1k
2 жыл бұрын
@@Ben_of_Milam_Music Sure but for the sake of stats, if Raw were still available melee/caster hybrids would still be able to get a great build with minimal investment.
@Ben_of_Milam_Music
2 жыл бұрын
@@pragmat1k oh, for sure. But you can still get pretty good numbers with minimum reqs and a magic infusion as well. I will miss Raw for my SL1 runs, though
@pragmat1k
2 жыл бұрын
@@Ben_of_Milam_Music Rest in Peace king. Right now I'm trying to make a build around the red dragon lightning spells and either the Bolt of Gransax or another weapon to be buffed with Vyke's Dragonbolt and the problem I'm running into is the FP costs for these spells are a bit steep. Cheapest one is like... 35?
@pepperonigawd
2 жыл бұрын
By your logic you cant play a caster on pvp. Fai/int scale past 60, you need mind, and still some str and dex to wield a weapon. Not to mention, by the time you reach the last boss, you are way over 120 without any kind of farming. A 120 meta would translate on you and other 3 sweatlords fighting eachother because most of the playerbase wont just decide to stop leveling when they have like 3 more areas to explore before finishing the game
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
ive been using a level 80 pure caster and been completely fine. my combustions hit for like 600 damage faster than a rapier.
@unamericano
2 жыл бұрын
See I personally think it's a mistake taking mind entirely out of the equation. If we're gonna talk about pvp we shouldn't exclude a single playstyle, pure casters included. I've never been much into the pure caster playstyle myself, but I've always wanted to and limited fp pools have always seemed to be one of the biggest restrictions holding me back from really trying it. I'd like more people with big platforms talking about casting as a valid build because the souls community as a whole seems to put them on the backburner compared to faith/into, even arcane casting builds.
@SmartAss4123
2 жыл бұрын
This could just be me being new to souls games. But this whole meta level talk seems like its only designed for melee weapon players and they are gaslighting everything else
@Etticos.
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah it’s a super lame take. Builds should have enough points to have variety with out everyone being Havel tank wizards, and I firmly believe there is a balance to be found between 130-150.
@jinwoo7378
2 жыл бұрын
He didnt exclude a playstyle... he literally said mind is useless UNLESS you are a pure caster. Which that is without question a fact.
@Etticos.
2 жыл бұрын
@@jinwoo7378 depends on how you factor ash of war skills into your build.
@jacob2520
2 жыл бұрын
he said leave it out unless you’re a caster so if you’re a caster just level it up and sacrifice a few things
@kemsat-n6h
2 жыл бұрын
I get your frustration, but how does it make it boring? If everyone can do pretty much everything, then the duels are much more unpredictable since they could do more than before. That would be less boring. You go in and see an archer, and the meta is at lvl 100, you know what they’re going to be capable of; same thing at lvl 150, and you don’t know what’s going to happen.
@nsfshdfgj
2 жыл бұрын
Boring from a build crafting perspective, and believe me it will not me impredecible at all lol, just because you have 25 levels more people won't stop abusing the same shit, they'll just do it with more poise, or more mind to spam stars of ruin and absurd damage weapon arts
@xenosayain1506
2 жыл бұрын
With casters he is neglecting fp cost. Skill fp is low. Spell fp is high.
@DoingFavors
2 жыл бұрын
FP cost even with the right talismans is really high
@xenosayain1506
2 жыл бұрын
@@DoingFavors especially with some of the better staves like lusat's, azure, sorcery gear to enhance int skills or sorcery dmg. If I did the math right the azure staff combined with the helmet is a 30% higher fp cost. Meaning something like pebble goes from 10 to almost 15 per cast
@dogfood142
2 жыл бұрын
honestly the video should just be turned off as soon as he disregarded mind as a stat.
@xenosayain1506
2 жыл бұрын
@@dogfood142 agreed. But I try to give feedback into the conversation. Because I'm at 25 mind right now. I get maybe 6 casts before I'm filling for decent pvp spells save your low cost harassment spells.
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
its very tough to say but yes when these 120 people come off salty as fuck and inventing their own logic its not very persuasive , just feels like they are kicking and screaming and cant get with the times
@-snek.
2 жыл бұрын
The new goal for strength builds is actually 54, not 66. The reason for this is because 80 is the upper softcap for damage stats, and going to 99 doesn't have that little ramp-up like it did in DS3.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
oh good to know, even more reason it shouldnt be higher
@klam141
2 жыл бұрын
According to dang it jm theres even a good reason to go all the way to 80 in strength. Personally I think it’s exciting to see what could be possible with 80/80 builds but I see the point being made about 40/40/40 builds. The game definitely seems to encourage some of these things though for example the frenzy flame talisman scales with every damage stat. Time will tell I suppose once builds get really optimized
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
@@klam141 i saw his video and the damage returns were definitely not as good. sure you can keep going but build making is all about optimization and the lower your returns the less important the stat is.
@BigbotR-J
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund maybe u should go back to playing dbd since u know nothing about this game, bringing your liberal opinions isn’t going to help the community
@bmo7259
2 жыл бұрын
@@BigbotR-J I'm sure someone who literally started their career on dark souls knows nothing about dark souls. Really good point!
@Kizen.
2 жыл бұрын
Legit, bad take. I entirely understand where it's coming from, but it's completely missing the mark. faith buff quality builds that hit the soft caps with huge vigor were a thing in ds3 at 120. So who cares if the meta is a bit higher? Only a few weapons are hitting way too hard with their weapon arts, and those are no doubt going to be nerfed. Meanwhile you're disregarding how important mind would be for any build that isn't full melee. Nobody is saying 150, but it definitely shouldn't be 120 or lower. Making a place that's only viable for quality builds is awful. And full casters don't work at 120 because of the cost of spells, and the damage of spells vs weapon arts. You literally can't make it work. Not to mention the equivalent of Great Magic Barrier making magic do basically no damage. Limiting builds to so many minor things and making it impossible for hybrids to even play at the meta isn't why the meta even existed.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
dude im doing 900 damage Catch Flames at level 80. if youre creative with your shit you'd be amazed what you can do even at lower levels.
@iota-09
2 жыл бұрын
dangitjm is saying (maybe) 150 due to how the level scaling when 2-handing strength weapons works, but yeah, 130-140 seems like it's gonna be the spot for anyone that doesn't hate hybrid builds... hell, for how i'm seeing things going on, i think we might get 3 types of metas: informal duels: 125 formal duels: 100(due to physicks and stuff) everybody else who doesn't mind doing whatever the hell they want as long as they get players to play with: 140 any higher and you go outside average invasion range, any lower and you limit builds too much for pve and usage of multi-stat weapons or fp-based tools.
@Kizen.
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund Yes, if you overoptimize anything things will be pretty crazy. But try and run a hybrid build with under 20 mind and still running 60 vigor and tell me 120 is viable for anything more than Quality builds. A 40/40 does 2400 damage with the Dragon Cragblade. That's ONESHOT territory. And before you say, "More reason not to go higher" I say "Okay, they can do it at minimum requirements too. So what did it change? Maybe having defense buffs to not die in one hit might be nice." 120 works for full melee, but for hybrids I can't see under 135. Mind stat is crucial for things that aren't full melee, and it doesn't make quality builds any more op than they were in Ds3. 15 more levels doesn't make a jack of all trades that can survive everything and still be able to deal with greatshield turtles, while being a pseudo hybrid with a quality build. Don't forget how important cast speed, fp, and hitting 60 vigor is. And just wait for the bugged arcane weapons to be fixed. When you die to WA spam from Rivers of Blood and see that and Eleonoras being the only weapons used at 120, don't say I didn't warn you.
@josephgoebbels1605
2 жыл бұрын
@@Kizen. Yes, people will naturally overoptimize everything. Your build sucks
@Kizen.
2 жыл бұрын
@@josephgoebbels1605 Not at all. But there's no way any build is going to be better than a full dex build running a rivers of blood once it is no longer bugged. You'll see. I have already mathed out everything, and 120 is around the level of 100 compared to DS3. Scotts whole shtick about all the buffs on a quality build was something we already saw. In dark souls 3. Why is it that quality wasn't the be all end all despite being a thing, and much more powerful in ds3 than this time around, other than outliers?
@xenosayain1506
2 жыл бұрын
I still think he's neglecting the sheer damage weapons in elden ring do compared to ds3. Even in The lvl 60 invasion range you could do ds3 lvl 120 damage. We need the health and other stats unless your pure melee
@god2958
2 жыл бұрын
exactly 80 dex bleed build pretty much 1shot you if u go pure at 120 why hybrid when u can 80 pure and int and faith drops off at 50 AR 60 casting. with his build you can't hybrid if u do u do no dmg moonveil spammer just one shot you
@stevenobrien7686
2 жыл бұрын
Bro NL I’m running a build rn that will let me smack with a moonveil Ashe of war for 3k on the regular, and you can get that, or close to it at level 40 or lower. And there are many other one shot builds much crazier. Some of these DPS burst damage builds will one shot you if they so much as sneeze on you with less than 35-40 vigor. Absolutely insane damage in these build possibilities now. Pretty dumb imo to say the meta should be a low level when I can annihilate most any character under 120 with a single hit at level 50.
@KnovaYT
2 жыл бұрын
No he addressed this by saying there are still broken things that need to be tuned
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
@@KnovaYT If you "tune" something like Moonveil then basically the weapon becomes unusable once you reach mountaintop of giants. The weapons are perfectly tuned for the pve. Fuck the pvp, it's an afterthought.
@KnovaYT
2 жыл бұрын
@@golDroger88 lol a true casual
@denfire5063
2 жыл бұрын
so you want to constrict the use of the most demanding spells and best magic staffs because we are never going to use them??? thats pathetic thinking considering how colorful the souls community is and there are literally more options in this game to make more builds like a strength mage with the moonlight greath sword and more, we need the casuals in as well and seeing how no way in hell they can beat new game+ at 120, before you could demolish everything at 120 new game + even in bloodborne but not here casual need that defence so thats 40 endurance minimum by default.
@mynamejef7963
2 жыл бұрын
No it means if you want to use big moon that one shots you have to sacrifice for it
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
no? who says you cant use the carian regal scepter or any other 60 requirement item.
@denfire5063
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund you are still constricting the meta, think about this i have played for 80 hrs already and i just got to the giant's territory i am level 140 + and still i get 4 or 5 shot some times 3 by some enemies like the fat dudes under the capital and the ice breath guys even wearing heavy armor and buffing up, i calculate that i will reach 150 by the end of the game and that is with out dedicate farming for runes, i whent for a fei dex build 25 endurance i cannot use many weapons and great shields that need strength and intelligence so at 150 with a good build not specialized you still ca not master every thing at ones. and most important the game needs it, i dodge like a god but all my friends and other people that are casual are not going to play another 50 +hrs to create a new character to reach again 120 with another character. for normal people the game tells you to go way beyond 120 because you keep leveling up and enemies get stronger and stronger. previously we stop leveling up because were weren't getting any souls being close at the end game, to level up ones it took sometimes hrs to go past 80 or 90 we needed new game+ to reach 120 with out going crazy. this is a different game what do you expect that players create 1 character to stay at 120 to pvp duels only, one to go into new game + coop beating booses with friends and getting invaded, and another to stay at a much lower meta? all of that considering that it takes 80+ hrs to reach the end of the game maybe much more less a lot more but collecting all will take alot of time again, well thats is not going to happen when the game punish you for keeping your character at 120 even after new game plus is just not possible all the casuals in other words the majority are not going to do that and i much more rater set a meta for everybody reasonably at 150 for now, that fighting the pros every single time with the over specialize build knowing that the likelihood of seeing the moonlight sword ot the big shields and weapons and spells without being glass as F would not happen if the meta is 120 or lower, besides, even at 60 vigor at 120 you still get 2 hit some times 1 shot by players because of the lack of defense that didn't happend in ds3 or it was very rare.
@MATCHLESS789
2 жыл бұрын
@@denfire5063 PVP SL meta has absolutely nothing to do with PVE.
@denfire5063
2 жыл бұрын
@@MATCHLESS789 well on dark souls 3 the 120 meta all of players where at new game + and already beat all bosses a second time to get all the toys, elden ring punishes you for staying at 120 most people finishing the game at 140 or 150 and more so survive new game plus and get all the toys like we did on previous souls games people need to go pass 120 for sure and even more after the chesse gets nerf.
@burnersforhim
2 жыл бұрын
bro literally brushes off the content in the game “you don’t need that” L 😂
@WillYazdani
2 жыл бұрын
Everything is speculation until testing is done. The soft caps are also at 80 for damage stats, not 60.
@MidnightPausch
2 жыл бұрын
there's multiple soft caps btw.
@WillYazdani
2 жыл бұрын
@@MidnightPausch for damage stats (dex, str, fai, int) they're all 80.
@mynamejef7963
2 жыл бұрын
@@WillYazdani past 50 you get slightly less returns but still good, this is what he means by multiple soft caps boss
@dificulttocure
2 жыл бұрын
@@MidnightPausch Yes but the video is wrong. He equates the 40/40 quality build of DS to 50/50 in ER, when it's actually 60/60 (first softcap). If you go all in dex, you do not aim to 60 dex as the video suggests but rather to 80 (the equivalent of 60 in DS), which is the second softcap. Either way, we are talking 20 more levels than what the video is suggesting. I do think 150 would be too much thou, but 130 seems perfectly reasonable considering all the stat boosting items there are.
@silvanodesimone6582
2 жыл бұрын
@@dificulttocure btw did you know that after 70 in dark souls 3 Dex scaling weapon would start to scale well again? Just a fun fact I remember
@Capper_Bra
2 жыл бұрын
All the new players needs to be higher level to beat the game. Youre taking a huge part of the playerbase by not setting the bar around 150
@berndatx6000
2 жыл бұрын
New players can make new characters if they want to PvP at the meta.
@joondori21
2 жыл бұрын
You can beat the game sub 125 easily
@SpliffyHusk
2 жыл бұрын
@@joondori21 I wouldnt say easily, but if you’re talking about barricade shield then yeah, pretty sure any level is possible with that. 120 caster builds will suffer cause 70 is the spot you want to hit for serious damage. Hybrid builds ain’t shit until you go past 150
@joondori21
2 жыл бұрын
Abraham Rodriguez you don’t need 70 for good damage. Damage is very high in Elden ring. The idea you need to have so much stat investment to do damage is a myth left over from previous titles
@Capper_Bra
2 жыл бұрын
@@berndatx6000 but then they want get the weapons they want because they cant beat the game
@swerrve
2 жыл бұрын
I think the main reason the meta level should be higher, is that in a casual pve playthrough most players can easily hit lvl 140 just by doing the side content, there isnt a way to level down so youre making everyone create a new entire character just to participate in duels
@nicholasranallo5957
2 жыл бұрын
hes also not thinking about gear weight at all with this, while yes the base stamina is great, carry weight needs to be lvled even with the weight talisman, too many factors support the notion of higher lvl than 120 or 130
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
@@nicholasranallo5957 base stamina is sort of shit in this game compared to dark souls 3, i went through the game with an ultra greatsword and i had to get 30 end to be able to swing more than twice and still roll away without getting hit by mobs
@nicholasranallo5957
2 жыл бұрын
@@heroofhyrule9778 that can chnaged based on a start class, but in this game ur base stam across the board is high than ds 3, and rolling costs less, but ultra weapons have a higher stam drain per swing
@unamericano
2 жыл бұрын
I actually think this is the best argument for a higher meta. As much as I loved the game its absolutely huge and I don't want to start entirely new characters and do ALL of the content just to get to a viable pvp connection range.
@NUCLEARxREDACTED
2 жыл бұрын
I dont think mind is as useless a stat as you make it seem. 20 fp for that attack you mentioned is really high, at 40 mind you have 220 fp thats like 11 weapon arts. Plus a lot of weapons arts use a lot more than that. Being only able to use 3 or 4 weapon arts is a massive disadvantage in any fight that isn’t over right away. Not to even mention all the items that use fp not just weapon arts and spells.
@grimsage5809
2 жыл бұрын
in context of duels No Healing should be fairly obvious ruling. That means you can allot all your flasks to blue and you still don't really end up worrying about it- not to mention, if you're whiffing 11 wa's that duel has probably punished you enough that you're out of hp way before you're out of fp.
@NameSpaceVoid
2 жыл бұрын
for real mind is crazy important. Scott is the Elden Lord of bad takes. He was also making a big stink about only going quality build for a first play through, even tho hybrid int/faith builds were already confirmed viable. Think i'm gonna just stop paying attention to this dude lol
@BearManley
2 жыл бұрын
@@grimsage5809 but having to chug a flask every 3 weapons arts is dumb. Weapon arts are more useful than they have ever been. There is no need to try and play this game like DS3. It's not DS3.
@grimsage5809
2 жыл бұрын
@@BearManley Then dont 🙃 im just sharing my opinion not making a hard ruling. mind is a comfort stat to me and i still am considering points in to check out more ashes.
@jimtsap04
2 жыл бұрын
40 mind for pure casters is perfect because the blue flask replenishes exactly 220 fp at max level
@luenanda4432
2 жыл бұрын
As a caster, you need lots of int and mind, as well as endurance to cast more than 3 spells in a row, and vigor just to survive. maybe higher than 120 could work, but the max i’d personally take (i’m a total noob to the souls series btw so just my opinion) is like 140-150
@carlsmith4568
2 жыл бұрын
150 is dogshit. You can make a killer caster build at 125. He did so in his latest video.
@erosion2205
2 жыл бұрын
Ah yes. Keep it at level 120 where everybody uses the same cheesy weapons non-stop
@erosion2205
2 жыл бұрын
@Allodium build diversity? Really dude? Idk if I call 7 weapons and 3 builds diversity
@davidp5981
2 жыл бұрын
I think its clear there will be a hardcore dueling meta and an everyone else meta... Particularly because a lot of people will finish the game beyond 125.
The only people what don’t want to raise the PvP cap are the ones who want quality or pure dex/str meta like in DS3. 150 is way more fun and allow significantly more build variety.
@GeneralTheGuy
2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry but a lot of the arguments for low level are incredibly disingenuous. Rather than build diversity forcing levels lower in this one is just going to make everyone bleed builds or 2 hand strength builds. Honestly I don't even think most people will be able to reasonably clear the game at lower levels either. Frankly, excessive pushing for lower than 150 is just pearl clutching to tell casters and hybrid characters to take a flying leap.
@mattr.7833
2 жыл бұрын
100% agree. I just did haligtree at 135 and it was still quite tough. I've decided that I'm going to 150. Still haven't even killed the fire giant and I've done zero rune grinding for levels. I'm not going to stop my progression and sacrifice my pve experience to cater to these tryhards that want to stay at (what i think) is a super low RL for this entry. There seems to be far more people in the 150 camp anyway. I plan to do multiple NG+ cycles as well so 120 or lower just feels like gimping myself, at least in my opinion. I think the meta should be where the average player is near the end of the game in terms of RL as well and 150 fits more naturally there i think. It's all about the quanity of people i can match with while also making the game diverse and fun in both pve and pvp. I don't think most of your average players are going to want to sacrifice one experience just to completely hamper the other.
@xcolmanrickx3027
2 жыл бұрын
Honestly 150 is also plagued by bleed n madness builds. 7 out 10 builds i come across are those n the rest are strength jump attack spam or magic which i dont mind but those bleed builds are so cheap and so are the double madness spears combined with their other spells its just cheap
@GeneralTheGuy
2 жыл бұрын
@@xcolmanrickx3027 I dont disagree, but at least other builds can be impactful instead of just the bleeds imo. I don't really begrudge people using what's successful but what's successful narrows a lot as levels decrease. Even my 150 faith/str character has to compromise in every single stat invested in. Vigor, mind, end, str, dex, and faith are all lower than ideal, but the some of the parts make it perform well. Which to me is the ideal of a hybrid. Not the best in anything at all but enough scattered about to be flexible and reasonably good. Any lower and it would just be overtly bad at everything. Never mind the casters I made that need a ton of stats just to use their spells nvm any toothpick they get to hold. At 120 casters and hybrids are so overtly worse than pure melee and bleed it just seems disingenuous to make the case that is an ideal meta level. Maybe pure melee can feel complete or "hybrids" that just cast a buff and not actual spells, but that's it. I'd even argue they arent complete since weapon arts are so crucial to anyone ignoring every other part of the game because they want to sit on a pedestal with their top hat and monocle and try and gaslight themselves and others into believing that's a reasonable level for pvp, coop, or just pve.
@ICA_Ghost
2 жыл бұрын
if you have EVERYTHING at 150 your build SUCKS what are you talking about??
@terminalbwoy2702
2 жыл бұрын
well the problem is that people are too fast to jump to conclusion that softcaps should solely decide which sl is gonna be meta while in reality it should be decided by the diversity of builds available plus softcaps as it was with demon souls. if anything the broad range of softcaps in elden ring means that players can do more builds at lower levels with distinct personalities without too much of a headache in deciding the most effective rout for everything. but at lower levels the problem of huge damage remains which is why everyone need a lot of hp. and i don't know if from software is willing to balance that out because this huge damage numbers are seems like a deliberate desicion. elden ring has a lot of fat bosses with fat hp pools and because of that potential lowering of players damage for purpose of pvp balance means that pve experience of average player can suffer. sorry for my english it's not my native language(
@lepistanuda
2 жыл бұрын
Well said
@limitlessapocalypse2702
2 жыл бұрын
You wrote it fine do not worry, but the reason why levels are inflated is because of how the soft caps work, the softcaps are at 60/80 now, not 30/40, this video did not research that, go PvP with a 30 in both stats and see how effective it is.
@Refrodnalf
2 жыл бұрын
The meta level should probably be set so that someone can hit one damage stat cap and still get 60 vig, that way people can make everything builds, but they are sacrificing damage and talisman slots for it. Sure, damage will be higher than in DS3 but at 60 vig, you also have much more health than in ds3. By my calculations the best for this would be around 130, and 135 could work so that an 80 dex build for example could juggle the few extra points between endurance and strength to wield either better armor or weapons. I agree with most of Scot's points against making it too high, but I fell like basing the meta around people always using the flask buffs for stats will turn pvp into the most boring waiting game ever.
@limitlessapocalypse2702
2 жыл бұрын
@@Refrodnalf I agree mostly but the issue is even with 80 Dex you do not hit hard with most weapons, the main issue that is causing the one shots are very specific weapons and Weapon Arts, a lot of players think that they got one shot because they are fighting someone high level, but the weapons that are doing the damage are actually usable at levels as low as 60-80 if you look into it.
@steliosp1770
2 жыл бұрын
Your english is fine mate. Good points but maybe an easy solution is to change the dmg vs players either of specific weapons/ashes/spells or across the board. But first, remove bloodhound step from weapons other than daggers and maybe fist weapons. This shit makes me not wanna pvp in ER and that depressed me cause I was looking forward to this for years..
@_Shield_Master_
2 жыл бұрын
The example you made for 150 shows exactly why it can reach that level. That quality build you just showed is trash considering the cap are much higher 33 is bad, same with 45 dex, also 25 on faith is also useless. However move those 25 faith points somewhere else, so let's say you're hero so 17 points (it has base 8) You put all of them in str and reach 50, plus 45 Dex with the talisman is 50 and 50 and that's a really good quality build that can compare with the new softcaps, this game is not ds3 you can't expect to make the same build you had on ds3 and work the same, 33 strength is trash in elden ring
@dragonman5869
2 жыл бұрын
True 33str is a joke unless your running like a pure int or faith build or something. There's got to be some wiggle room and rn 120 feels a little to tight leaving very little room for build innovation. 150 may actually be pretty good but I also find 140 to be adequate enough.
@seanwick9369
2 жыл бұрын
“Has the same build but does everything” Listen, if that weirdo feels like swapping his spells that much, be my guest.
@nsfshdfgj
2 жыл бұрын
So you're gonna ignore that fact
@HeirLethal
2 жыл бұрын
We shouldn't try to force sl 120 because of tradition. the weapons go to plus 25 and the upper softcaps are 80 ffs, it seems like there is just so much more incentive for higher levels, like in ds2 everyone tried sl 120 at first and then begrudgingly went to to 150-200 as time passed. lets skip the begrudging part this time around. I cant imagine even using some of these spells with 70+ stat reqs at 120 without shooting yourself in foot in several areas.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
The only reason DS2 had a higher meta is because ADP was a REQUIRED stat on every single build in the game. That's it - the only reason. Also again, what spells have a 70 caster requirement? Rennala's moon? The completely useless-in-duels spells? Why do you need to be able to cast that in a duel?
@gaming_potato7044
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund But scott, I want to powerstance with 2 giant crushers >:( /s
@HeirLethal
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund because not being able to cast it is what's wrong with this idea. I feel like from has been beating us over the head since bloodbornes innate defense stat to capping around 145. You might think this limitation increases build variety but it just makes so many builds with unnecessary stat requirements impossible to use. This is a problem within the game balancing as it is, but the game gives INCENTIVE to level higher than before because of its open world nature.
@akitaneru3447
2 жыл бұрын
120 just seems too low for pure casters who need very high intelligence or faith, and they also need to have high mind because spells are very expensive.
@clarkhinchcliff7824
2 жыл бұрын
Sorry dude, meta's get built around what most players enjoy. It's probably going to be in the 150ish range
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
honestly ds3 and bloodborne pvp players are clowns anywayu
@Mathenaut
2 жыл бұрын
The stat scaling is off. The core argument for SL150 is that it lets everyone hit 60vig and 80mainstat, with just enough left over for weapon requirements or stacking FP/End for the builds that need it. Sure, you can have hybrid builds that do a little of everything, but that only gets you so far when an optimized build is blasting through you because of the sheer difference in damage.
@cherrycola4476
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you
@FFBEVids
2 жыл бұрын
Why should mages get 60 vigor? That’s horrible. They should trade vigor for mind
@Mathenaut
2 жыл бұрын
@@FFBEVids Depending on how they build, they kinda still have to. Unlike other stats, mind scales MORE, the more of it you have. So while the rest of you can get away with 20 or so, mages usually want above 30 to sustain casting. Otherwise we're chugging after 3-4 casts.
@Mathenaut
2 жыл бұрын
Almost every vid you see of 150 mages in pvp are packing a soreseal of some sort, very few of them actually top 60vig.
@cherrycola4476
2 жыл бұрын
@@FFBEVids They don't have the defense or poise us strength users have.
@saintgamer6973
2 жыл бұрын
You’ve either not played the game enough or haven’t done enough research to make this video…. Smh
@TheAlpha0014
2 жыл бұрын
I just think the only counter point to this is that people won’t wanna sacrifice damage. They will level damage stats to 60/80/whatever softcaps and we’ll have a glass canon meta at 120
@ben7111
2 жыл бұрын
That’s the point, a price has to be paid. If your going to have super high ar you have no health. Always been like that
@shadowridin913
2 жыл бұрын
@@ben7111 he's saying that you can't spec into defense enough to offset someone specing into attack stats. So there's no point not having both
@nsfshdfgj
2 жыл бұрын
@@shadowridin913 if they can reliably space out all your attacks you're just bad or they're just good, they game isn't all number
@durkadur27
2 жыл бұрын
@@shadowridin913 That implies you face tank every spell. You should be able to outplay someone by dodging and then kill them quickly if they choose to pump damage like that.
@Tykero
2 жыл бұрын
Your "basically everything" character can't cast all the example spells you gave because you put no points in Mind. No Mind investment might be fine for low levels, but you're not making a character with self buffs like you give example of with base FP.
@xcolmanrickx3027
2 жыл бұрын
Actually i tired it out with base mind n i was able to get both my buffs with just one flask. Dragon lightning n flame buff they dont cast much
@Tykero
2 жыл бұрын
@@xcolmanrickx3027 I should've said "without flasking" you're right. Even still, it's insufficient for a hybrid or caster.
@shockd1220
2 жыл бұрын
@@Tykero hybrid casters shouldn't have access to high cost spells anyway. Youre a hybrid
@Tykero
2 жыл бұрын
@@shockd1220 It is insufficient for a hybrid OR a caster. I'm not arguing that "hybrid casters" should have access to high FP cost spells anyways. A120 RL dueling meta prices out several types of builds in favor of pure builds.
@shockd1220
2 жыл бұрын
@@Tykero a sl 150 meta means everyone is either a hybrid or 133 poise shield poker. Pure builds arent even the only type. Im 55 vigor dex with 25 faith for buffs. I cannot imagine how stupid it would be for me to have access to the 40 faith buffs on top of my keen build.
@maxwellalexander9996
2 жыл бұрын
Here's the problem, this isn't DS anymore where you had a small group of a couple hundred people fighting each other in a dead game. The people that are going to stay at that 120 level for dueling are the same small group from last souls games. Meanwhile the other hundreds of thousands of players are going to keep leveling up because that's what normal players do. You can stay at 120 and have a tiny competitive group or you can keep leveling and have a massive community. Not even saying I disagree with you that it wouldn't be fun to fight people at 150+, but that's just the reality we have to face now.
@Shinra_X
2 жыл бұрын
An extra thought, what kind of fights will you get from fighting casuals just dipping their feet into PvP with a 150+ character? I would pick the "same small group" who can actually put up a fight anyday of the week than fight random casuals who I will walk over 99 out of a 100 times.
@pragmat1k
2 жыл бұрын
This what happened in Dark Souls 2 until the Agape Ring was introduced. Because people kept increasing their soul memory from winning duels, they kept investing in their stats since soul level wasn't used for match making and that's how you ended up with dual avelyns in havel with greater magic barrier spamming hexes.
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
yeah id rather fight four or five good players than a thousand dual katana sorcerers
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
@@pragmat1k dark souls 2 had one redeeming quality which was the arena was sl based matchmaking to make up for it
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
@@pragmat1k but soul memory was the worst idea i think has come out from fromsoft so far
@jesusguijarro3610
2 жыл бұрын
you literally erased the existence of casters in the game? . now try to build a caster at 120 . cap his hp at 60 vigor, get mind to 30-40 to be able to cast 5 spells in a row and get the inteligence or faith to the 80 softcap. then cap a low dex strengh to equip some mele weapon like moonblade for example(16 strengh 11 dex) you find yourself at 140-150 easy. casters play the game too, mate.
@mellar5864
2 жыл бұрын
"You can basically do anything in one build except int or faith" "You don't need mind except you are a caster" bruh that's like half of all builds.
@zacross8504
2 жыл бұрын
Considering Arcane is kinda a magic stat it’s more like 50-60% of all builds and that’s excluding any builds using hybrid weapons like Moonlight GS
@perinthia6829
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah i feel like this guy doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, completely ignoring mana and assuming everyone is going to str/dex, its painful the watch
@Iluhvahtar
2 жыл бұрын
@@perinthia6829 I think he's under the effect of older souls games, where spells never were very high on the meta (except ds2 I think). Spells are a hell of a fun now, so many people will dump points into using them
@metrod2030
2 жыл бұрын
Not to mention that one of the best staves for sorcery (especially moon sorcery) is 70 INTELLIGENCE
@Iluhvahtar
2 жыл бұрын
@@metrod2030 you're talking about carian regal scepter? It is 60, but it is only really worth it around 70
@tequila_tibbs7938
2 жыл бұрын
tl;dr: limitations encourage creativity
@BoTheMasterOFAll
2 жыл бұрын
At SL 121, I was oneshotting people with the scav curved swords. 45 arcane, sepuku in left hand, and I could wear the veterens set so I couldn't be staggered. Disgustingly overpowered. Only times I lost were to other bleed builds, or a mage with the moonveil who also wore the same armor so I couldn't stagger them with my weapons. The sad part; chasethebro had a lvl 80 bleed build with the same arcane level, vigor, and endurance as me because he had a more efficient starting class. So all that OP bleed monstrosity fits into a lvl 80 char too. I miss the arena in DS3. When do those servers turn back on?
@philipfahy9658
2 жыл бұрын
Does arcane affect the innate bleed on the scav curved swords, or just the Sepuku bleed? Last night I switched to a 2 hand heavy scav curve sword build with parry on it. Loving it, but so far the bleed is just an afterthought nice bit of damage. And since it has no arcane scaling, idk if strength improves the bleed any.
@ch4osaeternum74
2 жыл бұрын
I'm sure we are gonna get an arena. Every soul game had one I believe
@undeadpoli1169
2 жыл бұрын
@@philipfahy9658 if you use a black whetstone and and scale the weapon with blood arcane will effect the buildup but naturally it only affects the damage
@StanGames
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah but ur over thinking it massively. They can’t cast all them abilities in pvp without mind stats lol
@joondori21
2 жыл бұрын
Good
@luciddreamliving258
2 жыл бұрын
Nah the spells are different in this game, staffs and spells for int have reqs in the 50s to use. And the cap is 10 to 30 level above that for max scaling. If you wanna use hybrid spells the 150 is the only way. But I feel like 135 is def safe.
@ashfield4313
2 жыл бұрын
What staffs and spells are in the 50's to use and if they're such a small fraction of the options for staffs and spells, why would the PvP community need to raise the entire power level just to include them?
@coleforpresident5762
2 жыл бұрын
@@ashfield4313 The carian regal scepter is arguably the best staff in the game, and you need 60 int to use it. There are other good staffs that have high int requirement too, such as the azur staff and Lusat's staff. Full moon sorcery have high int requirement, and they are fairly good for pvp as well. Needing at least 70int to use.
@kabrozkabroz
2 жыл бұрын
@@ashfield4313 and it doesn't even need to do that to include them, if that's the case then the sorceror who wants to use those spells will just have to sacrifice points in vigor or some other stat, ditch dex and rely on melee being your magic blades, etc.
@FOXX_TAIL_GAMING
2 жыл бұрын
Just because hybrid casters and dual UGS users need more stats doent mean the whole meta changes. 90%+ of all possible build are functional at SL 120. If you think you need more than that your either bad at optimising or just greeding for more vigor or endurance than you realistically need to make the build function. Make sacrifices like the rest of us. All SL 150 will do if make sure everyone can run around in full Bull-Goat armor... -_-
@traviswettroth4391
2 жыл бұрын
This is like saying “ havels armor has high vit requirements in ds3 we should raise the meta so I can wear havels”. There are just some gear and spells that have always been non viable in meta duels in these games.
@L10N.
2 жыл бұрын
Simple reason i disagree with you is you need a LOT of health to not get one-hit by trash OP builds
@TayterCJ
2 жыл бұрын
Respectfully disagree, it should be 150 because of the soft caps, and to your main point, nobody at 150 is "doing everything." You COULD do anything at that level, but the vast majority of people are going to build for a handful of weapons and spells that fit their playstyle, regardless of the level cap. There is no reason to stat spread when you could min/max to the new higher softcaps. If you want to "do anything," that's what respec is for. And that's how most people will play the game.
@theguildunknownii9044
2 жыл бұрын
You can have 60 - 80 points into dex, int or str while still having 60 vigor at SL 125. For str you dont even have to go 80, since you can just keep it at 53 while 2 handing to put points into endurance for poise armor. For pure casters you DONT need anything more than 20 mind unless you plan on spamming spells like a scrub. So i really dont see this "softcap" arguement that everyones on about. You need choose, you cant just expect to max out on damage, health and survivabiity, hybrids are meant to be weaker than pure builds for the sake of versatility and/or tankiness.
@fullfildreamz
2 жыл бұрын
@@theguildunknownii9044 amazing, vig and main damage stat... but completely starve everywhere else. 150 just means a bit more utility and options... it doesn't translate into more damage or "having everything"
@noobmaster1368
2 жыл бұрын
@@theguildunknownii9044 watch cowboys video on this issue. He dives deep into this issue
@echo4567psn
2 жыл бұрын
@@noobmaster1368 Lol, cowboy was making "builds" at level 200 in ds2. He's the last person to be speaking about the PvP meta in anysense.
@noobmaster1368
2 жыл бұрын
@@echo4567psn we're talking about elden ring here though mate.
@bearoyay
2 жыл бұрын
It would seem the logic comes undone when you analyze Elden Ring and how it intends for the player to pack more options and stats than before. He makes the argument that since there are stat rings in the game and Armour players should have to minmax to use them in comparison to players who dont. It doesn't really make sense. I get wanting to have peoples builds be a dedicated thing for pvp with loss and gain in different areas, but in this game, if you choose too, you can abuse the hell out of an early game character by obtaining all the memory slots, duplicating weapons and ashes of war to give you tons and tons of spells you can use at any point just by switching weapons in your inventory, having access to nearly a 100 different abilities if you really wanted too. At the end of the day people will be 1-2 shotting each other no matter what if they optimized their build at either meta, there will just be more options for the latter. He also makes his argument by suggesting that half the stats dont need to be leveled like endurance or mind when there are benefits and reasons to level those they just arent important to him personally. If your build relies on those stats or you dont want to use a blue flask after casting a single late game spell, let alone ones that you can channel, then its not going to be like that. Not trying to hate my man but again, he does this thing where he shows you his example and makes it seem super obvious but in reality hes casting a cover over the fact that not everyone will play like him and his way is not necessarily the best way to play for a pvp. Again his examples being the stat rings, armour, not putting points into certain stats, and so on. All things that are subjective to him and others not a general rule for gameplay and definitely doesn't apply to everyone's builds whatsoever. Personally, I think the devs intended the average player to to have access to a plethora of abilities, the game is much longer. Sure, at 150 you could be using a hammer and casting faith and sorcery, but if your against someone else at 150 who is fully specialized for his dex or int build, he will be much stronger and effective, albeit with less total options.
@natedogmarik2554
2 жыл бұрын
This is the comme I was looking for. Dude was straight covering all his points with bias and not being objective at all. I read your entire comme and agree with everything
@greygale
2 жыл бұрын
That's not his logic coming undone, you're just disagreeing with his fundamental premise that it's boring if every character can do anything they want with no compromises.
@juliang8676
2 жыл бұрын
Isnt the point that the fully specialised build isn't actually much better. Like 99 dex and max melle stats is marginally better than 60 dex + quality or faith etc. And thats NOT counting the affects of the flask or talismans. So specialised doesn't have a apprciable benefit over unspecialised for level 150 builds. At 120 though it seems like you're right, which is good IMO
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
I don't think you understand what a build is. Being able to do busted shit is not a justification to let everyone be overleved past the life, damage and endurance stats hardcaps.
@qwormuli77
2 жыл бұрын
So you mean your "build" is the higher softcap of every stat? What in that is a build?
@Doomscrollin
2 жыл бұрын
I almost agree but I do think you are ignoring mind as a stat.. the fp costs are high enough for many spells
@sunnyd9321
2 жыл бұрын
Like you can't even summon certain things without high enough FP. Mind may be weaker but it's foolish to sleep on it, especially considering that getting an extra cast of an incantation or sorcery might make the difference.
@MATCHLESS789
2 жыл бұрын
@@sunnyd9321 what things are you gonna be summoning in PvP? Can spirits even be summoned in any MP setting?
@ch4zff
2 жыл бұрын
@@MATCHLESS789 No, but people like using their builds in PvE and PvP and seeing that some bosses basically wish for summons to make them not absolutely obnoxious, it makes sense.
@heroofhyrule9778
2 жыл бұрын
probably because from a pvp perspective caster builds are a meme in previous games
@sunnyd9321
2 жыл бұрын
@@heroofhyrule9778 Yeah but they made very clear and very sure they want abilities and magic/incants to be an integral and viable part of your gameplay here, which I can appreciate. (If only they didn't also release Erdtree Greatshield in the same breath, my point would be stronger.)
@mkickflip99
2 жыл бұрын
Why people so scared of change. There’s wayyyyyyy much more variety in this game than any other souls game. Spells/weapons/armor/caps. Your still limiting yourself/sacrificing other stats even at 140-150 if you hit softcap of 80 on one offensive stat. I get it man I’ve been playing ds3 pvp for years, but this is a completely different game. Gotta drop that ds3 40/40 mindset bro. This is elden ring, not dark souls embrace the change
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
right but...we still have roughly the same health as DS3 all geared up and maxed Vigor so that doesnt add up
@kryptick1ng
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund DragonCrest Greatshield Talisman + Black Flame's Protection with Tree Sentinel/Radhan's Armor gives you about a 69% physical damage negation. I'm level 202 with a base defense of 170. Even if someone attacked me with a weapon with a base damage of 800. Reduce 170 and further negate 69% of that damage which comes up to the weapon only dealing ~196 damage. Higher levels allow for alot more defensive negation also higher levels means less talisman have to be used for just regular shit like stamina.
@trycior7718
2 жыл бұрын
Supposedly you should get Str to 80 even when two handing, 99 is not the internal cap anymore. Scaling is apparently consistently good until 80 + two handing, effective 120 Str.
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
uh what, imma need a citation on that, havent seen that at all
@trycior7718
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund dangItJim's new video covers it kzitem.info/news/bejne/taiqzXl9fndloqA
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
@@trycior7718 oh good to know, thats very interesting!
@nicklemay8056
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund Scott something about you actually doubling down and agreeing with a comment that counters something you thought makes me so happy thank you for being a polite and mature content creator there's not enough of yous
@maudley
2 жыл бұрын
Could it be that it works differently entirely? Maybe it boosts your strength by 50% for your requirements, but for damage it instead boosts the bonus AR from strength scaling by 50%. Like, the actual number. I feel like they might actually do that since they seem to be making all the damage softcaps 80, and this would definitely make 80 a huge improvement over 54. I'm going to have to test this, but it should be easy
@Wespa64
2 жыл бұрын
You can theorize as much as you want but in the end the pve lvl requirement will dedicate the meta. I for sure wont make another char to grind out hours so I can enjoy a bit of fun in a pvp system that is ruled by janky netcode.
@borggambsmash7825
2 жыл бұрын
pve req in ds3 ended you at lvl 80. so your point? it'll be nice once all the people who "wont make another character" quit so the playerbase can actually have a real voice. the "meta" only applies to people who want to pvp. cooping which doesn't have any bearing on meta is done through group password. all yall trying to over level AND want to summon random players but you dont seem to get that wont meet each other cause none of you will stop so the level range in ng will be insanely large and nobody will see each others signs.
@Wespa64
2 жыл бұрын
@@borggambsmash7825 my point is that casuals wont stop leveling at an arbitrary number that a small community decided. In the end you can plan fight clubs at any level you want but they wont matter for newcomers. Also no new pvp players = a slow and steady decline and death of a pvp scene.
@scotxer9050
2 жыл бұрын
I’m currently sitting at 119 on my character, gonna stay at 120 for now until everyone agrees on the level.
@MrDarkember1
2 жыл бұрын
same
@NameGaming
2 жыл бұрын
The most agreed on level rn is around 130 since that’s where most people finish the game at
@sean_thomson
2 жыл бұрын
smart move
@jamesj7368
2 жыл бұрын
130, having plenty of great fights and no shortages of red summon signs
@sean_thomson
2 жыл бұрын
@@jamesj7368 most populous game at the moment, all levels with be open for the next 3 months
@StallionFernando
2 жыл бұрын
Considering I'm still getting one shot at lv 90 and how most of the stats have higher soft caps and usefulness is spread out I'd say you're wrong. 150ish
@qwormuli77
2 жыл бұрын
So, spec more points into health? You might not one shot others anymore, but so won't they. Right now the most common reason for one shots during invasions I see is people running with sub 600 health. Like, no shit you get one shot with an optimized one shot build at that?
@liamperkins5461
2 жыл бұрын
I know dbd is no longer being talked about but I actually like that. I'm personally very tired of dbd and am enjoy the new content on a great game! Love your discussion content, man.
@lewis-h6n
2 жыл бұрын
Why are you commenting about dbd for no reason? Pretty weird
@zombiefinatic7033
2 жыл бұрын
@@lewis-h6n well didnt scott himself say like half his new current viewers are from DbD? Something he streamed for like 5 years which you might say was part of his brand
@BasedChadman
2 жыл бұрын
@@lewis-h6n Scott used to post DbD related content primarily after he quit ds3. It's relevant
@the_mad_fool
2 жыл бұрын
@Thomas Murphy Dead By Daylight
@aidanspradley9533
2 жыл бұрын
@@BasedChadman And? The only person bringing up DBD is the person saying “others are bringing up dbd”
@SoI_Badguy
2 жыл бұрын
To reach the damage softcaps on a quality build and reach the softcap for vigor you need 60/50/50. That puts you at rl126 with literally nothing in endurance. Have fun with your niche duel community if you want, but nobody is going to gimp themselves that much just because you're scared of spellcasters.
@Pompadourius
2 жыл бұрын
Agreed, I'm not gonna participate in a level 120 meta, looking at how many builds are just made to fail at that level. 150 all the way, imo
@zacross8504
2 жыл бұрын
Not to mention casters are going to want 80 for Spell dmg Which isn’t going to leave you with much mind for spells at 125 (I have 75+Int talisman and nearly 40 mind and still don’t feel I have enough FP and only 30 VIG)
@FunnyCrowd_
2 жыл бұрын
Your missing the point. This is an optimization problem looking solely for a level where the highest amount of weapons and playstyles are viable. It is inconsequential if all the builds need to use body buffs or the best armor. All we are looking at is build diversity, and 150+ provides it. I come from the ds3 tournament scene and from my experience there I can confidently say that weapon diversity trumps all else. Everyone will find a way to fit the best armor on a build but weapon requirements made some just impractical. Therefore we saw the same few efficient weapons win time and again.
@iota-09
2 жыл бұрын
@@cloud12348 exactly, the issue is they think build variety = which stat are you picking to max out? with at most being allowed to have two stats. the examples showed in the video and in comments simply don't work for anything but one-stat bilds or buff builds which rely on physicks flasks to work-and which generally cannot use anything other than the buffs with it due to excessively low fp- going over 150 seems excessive, even 150 i'd say, but 120 is way too low.
@lovewilcox6874
2 жыл бұрын
FYI numbers between 120 and 150 exist. Can we stop infantilising the argument by framing everything as 120 OR 150 with absolutely no room for compromise.
@rowdyrager-9403
2 жыл бұрын
If vigor soft cap is 60 and main stat (str/dex/not) soft cap is 80. Then its gonna be high LOL
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
It makes no sense that people are complaining damage is too high but then they also want to gouge 80 in offensive stats. Maybe we shouldn't be doing that??
@Leo_Keys
2 жыл бұрын
The poor int/faith build in 120 meta. Int faith needs high dex cuz their spells are so slow.
@JJBCrimsonKnight
2 жыл бұрын
Being able to do everything, at 10 mind though. Not gonna be casting a lot of spells for long. A true Hybrid build (One using spells and AoW) are gonna want 57 mind for maximum return, since you have to invest a lot into mind for you start getting gains.(Only 100 FP at 20 vs 335 at 57)
@Omega_2651
2 жыл бұрын
57 mind lmao... u can make a high dmg sorcerer at sl125 with 34 mind, 70 int and 55 vigor but 9 endurance. If u want an hybrid caster build, u have to sacrifice mind or int.. u can't have everything
@zjaeriqsanders1731
2 жыл бұрын
@@Omega_2651 my thoughts exactly. Ive been playing around with the numbers in the character optimizer and around 20 - 25 seems to be the spot for hybrid builds
@johnfrankster3244
2 жыл бұрын
Man wtf you gona do with 9 endurance, cast 1 spell & wait 5 seconds for your stamina to recharge lol.
@golDroger88
2 жыл бұрын
so you want hardcap life, hardcap mind, hardcap damage and hardcap magic? lol, so much for "hybrid".
@jinwoo7378
2 жыл бұрын
57 mind?!??!? Jesus christ... yea, good fucking luck making a build with that. That's just stupid in all honesty.
@karenmarkis7585
2 жыл бұрын
this makes no sense at 120 you cant beat the game im 155 new game+ and i get some times 3 or 4 shot by regular mobs and im not jack of all , im max magic katana damage build, what is this logic guy? besides this is new game cut some slack please
@ScottJund
2 жыл бұрын
i beat the game at level 80 3 times. talking about PVE damage for PVP meta doesnt really apply much
@karenmarkis7585
2 жыл бұрын
@@ScottJund then tell me why back in ds3 all the players beat the game and they were entering the 120 meta in new game + after getting all the weapons and armor?? isn't there a relation on how the game response to your level? meaning players need 120+ to beat the game and 150+ to play new game + and get all the weapons and armor and there are only 2 ways to beat the game and all the bosses at leve 80 no 1 you're use exploits like flame sins bleed no 2you are really really good at the game which the overwhelming majority aren't so this don't count normal players won't know about blood flame combo + it's getting removed soon, and normal players can't dodge like a pro and as far as i remember the 120 meta was comfortable to all pro players and normal players now 120 it's only comfortable to pro players
@bigwillicus4035
2 жыл бұрын
I've seen the most diversity and least one shots at 150. Peoples "builds" at 150 are coming down more to the actual gear they use, talismans, and FP usage and playstyle. Every pvp match I had before around 130 and 150 was just a one shot festival. Everyone just made sure that they could end the fight before it even really began. Sure ashes and 1 shots may be nerfed but for me 150 has been the best PvP level in the game and I've tried 60, 90, 120, 150.
@dantemusic2438
2 жыл бұрын
150-200 is where im having the most fun on rn too :) really populated in many areas and no 1shots since the death blight fix
@bigwillicus4035
2 жыл бұрын
@@dantemusic2438 yea at every level I've played though theres always people using the most broken builds that need to be nerfed regardless though. Like rivers of blood or casting the spells you have to roll spam through and sitting behind with moonveil.
@dantemusic2438
2 жыл бұрын
@@bigwillicus4035 Yup, hopefully those things well be fixed or balanced in later updates :)
@AnthemTD
2 жыл бұрын
60 isn’t a hardcap for vigor. Your hp will still go up after 60. Mind is not useless if you plan to cast more than a few spells, so RIP any kind of hybrids according to you. Just overall your take on this is awful
@towablewarrior2426
2 жыл бұрын
Hate to be the one, but the DS2 Havel Mage is already a fairly feasible build for 125. Can wear full crucible axe set + Dragoncrest Greatshield for 46.85 physical negation along with a staff and Noble's Slender Sword, and achieve a medium roll with only Great Jar's Arsenal, Erdtree's Favor +2, and just three point into endurance. This allows for a 60 VIG, 38 MIND, and 50 INT build. Everything could obviously be changed around a bit, but point still stands that if people want to be tanky mages, that's possible without being 150. 150 seems solid IMO as there would be build diversity while allowing for the existence of pure mages, battle mages, and paladins; which Elden Ring seems to have designed more weapons for than previous installments
@krenk9921
2 жыл бұрын
you didn't watch the full video
@ChevalierdeJohnstone
2 жыл бұрын
Better PvP minds should decide but I’m commenting bc this is a very thoughtful argument.
@Aidian1
2 жыл бұрын
At 150 I could make a relatively tanky hybrid build that mainly focuses on melee with a couple of spells. I'm at 130 which feels fine but 20 levels to invest into vig and endurance would help greatly. I would have to use Soreseal which hurts me to wear decent armor and have a decent health pool and be able to wield a weapon, staff and shield or second weapon.
@jasonbuccellato8196
2 жыл бұрын
Try RL 200, I get pvp all day and the game balances itself out so much more when your defensive stats/level match the weapon scaling. It's good to have options and variety in one build, despite what might be implied in this video.
@mitchellprovow1859
Жыл бұрын
Lol you need mind on a pure faith build. Going to 80 faith is barely viable unless you’re at 150, you can just barely hit weapon requirements. You’ve got this all wrong. Going from 125-150 Doesn’t suddenly make you a havel monster. Have you even analyzed this?
@archologyzero
2 жыл бұрын
Being able to do everything doesn't mean you can do everything at once, the low-level PVP meta basically just comes from a lack of skill and an over-reliance on limiting your opponent's ability to counter your specific build easily. So essentially you're just going to run into Dex builds running rivers of blood strength builds running Radahns and dual swords mage builds running stars of ruin and Adulas sword. Kind of silly to argue that a lower level means more variety when it essentially just means Only The Meta weapons
@WGasmss
2 жыл бұрын
I can personally agree with the redahn armor with duel wielding All I fought at lv 125. The only enjoyable fights I’ve had have been when I went to 150 and have stayed there
Пікірлер: 1,9 М.