In Thailand, BYD has crushed Tesla since the beginning.
@ciybersal3499
8 ай бұрын
Also In Brazil!
@AlbertAlbert_
8 ай бұрын
Because of the lower price?
@borinvlogs
8 ай бұрын
@@AlbertAlbert_ being popular doesn't mean better otherwise filthy rich with unlimited amount wealth will be driving Toyota Prius instead of Bugatti
@TB-up4xi
8 ай бұрын
Price is significantly different in Thailand the BYD Atto3 is 1100K Bht, the Model 3 RWD is 1600k Bht, the LR is 1900k Bht and a base Model Y is 1750k Bht.
@Asian_bogan
8 ай бұрын
Also in Thailand there’s only 1 tesla dealer in the whole country 🤣🤣 prices are so much cheaper there because of the trade agreement between the Thai and Chinese governments… but if I were in Thailand I’ll go with avatr, premium grade equivalent to 5 series/e class but price is cheaper then camry 🤣 so many EV choices over there
@Clove_Parma
8 ай бұрын
Great breakdown. At the end of the day a fundamentally good car with room for improvement, much of which should be ugh an OTA update. Is it hands down better than the benchmark? No, but is it another good option for people who don’t want the sterile minimalism of the Tesla? Absolutely. It’s great to have more options of high quality EVs on the market
@HungTran-el6io
7 ай бұрын
kzitem.info/news/bejne/qn-kupWkgZyffmU check on consummer complains and feed back to BYD
@mogensen84
8 ай бұрын
I never use my climacontrol. I only adjust the temperature, which can be done by using the voicecontrol "Hey BYD - Set clima to 25c" .. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't take more than a few sec.
@DirtyWest
8 ай бұрын
Hopefully they will bring the SUV version of this (Song L or Sea Lion 07) to Australia soon!
@n37z
8 ай бұрын
We get seal U/song+ first in ger/eu, already got enap rating.
@n37z
8 ай бұрын
@@Sensei_Sifu I know, got the seal for now. Can't see both of these cars coming here in 2024
@n37z
8 ай бұрын
@@Sensei_Sifu we only get rwd design and AWD excellence here with same battery. Got the rwd design after my dad helping us checking out some byds in china
@thatkaiz
8 ай бұрын
I asked their sales person last weekend. There will be an SUV next year.
@ItsJonesy777
8 ай бұрын
I’ve had my Seal Performance for 2wks now and I will say I agree that ELKA and ISLI are a must to turn off before each drive. Europe has already received an OTA to dial back to ELKA so hopefully we get that soon enough. As someone who was between this and a Model 3 Highland for so long, it took me all of 10mins in the Tesla to know the Seal was the right choice. Great video and echoes most of my thoughts to a tee.
@freakybeast5068
8 ай бұрын
When you say all of 10 minutes, what was it made your choice? I'm in the same boat as you but I'm considering the opposite. I find Seals indicator noises infuriating, and having to switch settings at the start is super annoying. Also no 1 pedal driving was another factor. Did you drive the Long range model 3 Highland?
@mattg5303
8 ай бұрын
@@freakybeast5068same boat. But I find the Seal inside and out appearance is horridly cluttered and love the tesla minimalism.
@M4rt_FX
8 ай бұрын
Everyone is raving about the improvements to Highland on the road. How did you view one then get a Seal so fast? BYD mustn’t have much of an order backlog they’re dealing with.
@ItsJonesy777
8 ай бұрын
@@freakybeast5068just off the bat I will say that I always preferred the interior and exterior design of the Seal well before pricing was announced and if it was priced right, that would likely be my choice. With the Highland announcement, even with the removal of stalks I wasn’t put off by it but did have some concerns on driving in the real world without these. After finally driving the Highlands within 10mins I noticed the suspension was much softer than the previous Model 3 (some people will prefer this) and with so many roundabouts in our area, no stalks wasn’t a dealbreaker but it certainly was a huge inconvenience and at times dangerous because you had to take your eyes off the road to hit the correct indicator. No USS was another issue with Tesla Vision being way off in its estimations of my proximity to something, auto-gear selection got it wrong several times and phantom braking still plagues the Highland. Overall, Tesla’s advantage in the charging network and in most cases, autopilot were not enough for me to overlook the things I mentioned above. The Seal definitely isn’t perfect but an OTA update has already been pushed through in other markets to address some of those issues. On the things you mentioned, you can change the indicator sound to something more normal and no OPD is a strange but in ACC the car can come to a complete stop.
@ItsJonesy777
8 ай бұрын
@@M4rt_FX I already had an order in for the Seal when it was first announced, within minutes. The Highland is improved in almost every way on the road over the old model but there’s more to a car than just how it drives.
@ateiviz
8 ай бұрын
Lovely review with concise points and well rounded approach. The Seal is by no means the best thing of all time but the hardware is all there it just needs a few software updates to get the best out of it.
@06younger
8 ай бұрын
BYD have pushed out an OTA update to "tame" the ADAS systems and make it easier to turn them off.
@leonkernan
8 ай бұрын
If they were setup right you wouldn't feel a need to turn them off.
@06younger
8 ай бұрын
@@leonkernan I know a lot of people who don't like using Lane Keep Assist.......no matter the brand of car.
@OTPulse
5 ай бұрын
@06younger I hate all forms of automated control. I have it all permanently turned off in my Corolla. If they won't allow them to be turned off permanently it would be nice to enable widgets on the home screen to disable them without needing to go into settings, just old Android phones did for data/wifi/gps.
@AJ-no4kw
8 ай бұрын
Picked one up yesterday. great review.
@karanaman68
8 ай бұрын
Hope you do an owner review in the ensuing months
@KiwiMC99
7 ай бұрын
bot?
@Zumaray
6 ай бұрын
Thoughts on the lane keeping system?
@MHWibi
6 ай бұрын
I am planning to buy BYD Seal. I read an article from UK saying that when the car is passing rough surface road the driver can feel quite strong vibration on the steering wheel. Is that really the case, please kindly share your experience on this matter.
@AJ-no4kw
6 ай бұрын
@@MHWibi I've had my seal for about 2 months, I would highly recommend the car. We also have a 2023 Range rover sport. In terms of the comfort, it's honestly not too far off from the Range Rover. I think the article you read may have been referring to the Driver assistance, such as lane keeping. It's not great at the moment, I turn it off every time I drive the car, but I believe there is a software update coming to rectify the issue.
@jeffreygriffith5919
8 ай бұрын
You note the lack of air system control ls and whether that is safe. You do know that you can speak to the BYD? It works very well. Hi BYD, set air to 23. Set fan speed to 2. Works well. Don’t need separate controls.
@Steve-jx3mh
8 ай бұрын
I had a look at one in the BYD showroom a while back, and I must say that it impressed. I am keen to see it compared to a Renault Megane E-tech which is very much on my radar for my first EV.
@dingbatt
8 ай бұрын
More of a sales threat to the Polestar 2 and Ioniq 6 I would have thought, as they are EVs with a more conventional interior. The biggest positives to me are the LFP battery and driver’s display. It’s a shame about the ADAS but that is a symptom caused by testing authorities, not car manufacturers. That includes having to disable those functions for every drive. I would like to see the settings saved as a driver profile, even if you have to acknowledge what has been turned off before you can drive it.
@randomname931
8 ай бұрын
cheaper and better interior than the Model 3.
@ALWH1314
8 ай бұрын
There is zero manual button not even gear shifter or signal turn stick on Tesla 3. The single screen is also distracting for driver to view speed, electricity consumption, not only have to take your eyes off road but it’s very difficult for who needs reading glasses.
@teslabot6517
8 ай бұрын
Bought it, ❤ it.(premium) Sooooooooo goooood. Completely agree about the calibration of the lane keep assist - jerking of the wheel
@lucisleesion8824
8 ай бұрын
Tesla is like a crude and less refined product (both exterior and interior) in comparison to BYD
@martinloney6322
7 ай бұрын
Its superiority is beneath the skin.
@saahan-nn1fe
7 ай бұрын
Why do you want physical buttons? You can directly say commands such as open the window, open the skylight, turn on the air conditioner, adjust the temperature to 20°, etc.
@johnsmith1739
6 ай бұрын
Great review - More of this guy please :)
@simonwile5110
8 ай бұрын
Was wondering when the AU journos were going to get to reviewing this. No mention of the HUD, charge speeds or included kit (home charge cable). On my test drive list.
@rsat9526
8 ай бұрын
Regarding the range of the Seal Pefromance, I have had this car for the past 3 months and I have brought it with me to upcountry twice. With average speed of 70-90 km/hr I could squeeze 450-460 km range from 90% battery easily. However, when I really step on the pedal a bit harder (120-150 km/hr for 20% of the driving) I can only get around 380-420 km range. It is surprising how fast the battery is depleted with just 40-50km of heavy speeding toward the end of my journey.
@martinloney6322
7 ай бұрын
The laws of physics my friend. Stick to 110 and see a huge improvement.
@rsat9526
7 ай бұрын
@@martinloney6322 I didnt say I dont know about that. I was just mentioning that it is deleting faster than I thought it would be. I knew it was gonna be faster than normal at that speed.
@MHWibi
6 ай бұрын
I am planning to buy BYD Seal. I read an article from UK saying that when the car is passing rough surface road the driver can feel quite strong vibration on the steering wheel. Is that really the case, please kindly share your experience on this matter.
@HydeTravelLog
6 ай бұрын
@@MHWibiYes if you drive a bit faster you will feel the slight vibration like over 80-100km/hr when you really drive through uneven road but I do not find this to be any different compare to the other cars I have driven before. At normal speed I find it quite smooth overall.
@Lachlant1984
5 ай бұрын
I was quite surprise to learn that BYD were making electric cars, I remember my old Panasonic cordless phone came with BYD AA batteries for the handset, and that was back in 2003/2004.
@Cam-uo8ey
8 ай бұрын
Good review, and having the premium model myself, I do agree about the safety systems. Hoping a software update can sort them out soon.
@juanvandermerwe5085
7 ай бұрын
Filmed in Breakfast Point! Love it :)
@dmhboag5882
8 ай бұрын
You can use voice commands to adjust air con and other functions, no need to crash the car fiddling!
@ssouthur
8 ай бұрын
Yeah had the same thought. Seemed like a half arsed review to me...
@shanemclean9354
21 күн бұрын
Hi Stephen what colour is this one?
@antanpermata4273
8 ай бұрын
Sukaaaa ama BYD Seal.. keren sih, yang ini pasti gw beli
@CThienV
6 ай бұрын
the rear is missing a bumper. looks strange
@guvnor1971
7 ай бұрын
Pity your road footage was only suburban roads with speed humps.
@podge5555
3 ай бұрын
Hard to see the screens when it’s sunny
@BigEightiesNewWave
8 ай бұрын
It looks fantastic as BYD poached a well known German designer.
@HuyTranimal
8 ай бұрын
That active lane keeping sounds annoying! Hope it gets sorted in a future update.
@violian5
8 ай бұрын
This car looks vastly better than the similarly priced Tesla.
@RyanCowan
8 ай бұрын
How so !?
@thunderboltcalgary1559
6 ай бұрын
I am sure when there's more of them on the roads there will be OTA updates that improves the assistance
@rodsevler
8 ай бұрын
Thank you for your honest review.
@jccusell
8 ай бұрын
Never gpind to buy an electric vehicle, but curious as to what extent choice for BYD was a choice against Tesla/Elon.
@awesomusmaximus3766
4 ай бұрын
I test drove one very smooth ride nice power band
@jasperkim5945
8 ай бұрын
When is it coming to the usa?!?! Unfortunately i dint see it hapoening
@dewfend
7 ай бұрын
Ah, ask Biden to delete the 25% custom duty.
@deficator750
8 ай бұрын
this car looks way better than m3
@rescuehelly271
8 ай бұрын
I guess they will solve the safety system by OTA, the hardwares look good
@mattmelvin6461
8 ай бұрын
Great review, What colour is this seal?
@carsguide
8 ай бұрын
Our test car colour is Ice Blue
@user-zr8xy8bt3t
8 ай бұрын
Beautiful neighborhood. Clean and new
@martinloney6322
8 ай бұрын
What about the greater weight?
@mattymatt2323
8 ай бұрын
Youd be a fool buying this over the model 3
@JJ-vy2rh
8 ай бұрын
Is it not far cheaper, you would be a fool to buy a EV in Australia as they only work on the eastern seaboard
@RyanCowan
8 ай бұрын
I agree. I honestly feel Tesla is worth the price, and BYD is not.
@mattymatt2323
8 ай бұрын
Yeah if you do long distance drivng but i havent driven futher than 250kms in a single trip in my lifetime so I think id be ok@@JJ-vy2rh
@MesserschmittReaver
7 ай бұрын
The interior alone is 10 times better
@user-ww9yw4zi8m
8 ай бұрын
How much of a loss are they making with every EV sold ??
@sanjiv7089
8 ай бұрын
At first glance this car looks american designed and the Tesla looks chinese lol. But I really love this car, especially the interior, you feel something ! Tesla interior is a joke. Cybertuck is another mega joke lol
@wongkampungdiaustralia
8 ай бұрын
Thank you for information
@sanjaykhadka8360
8 ай бұрын
Can we fold the rear seat like model 3 and make flat like bed incase if we want to do so?
@isaak4416
8 ай бұрын
yes
@tobybridson
8 ай бұрын
Good review
@ronnie5966
7 ай бұрын
The color is ice blue? Or is it atlantis grey?
@Zumaray
6 ай бұрын
That looks like the blue
@scottconroy7708
8 ай бұрын
The Breakfast Pointring Circuit.
@kimwiencken2492
8 ай бұрын
BEFORE you decide - try BOTH the BYD Seal in an AWD version as well as a Tesla 3 Long Range Highland. I did so (Europe) last week. Even if the Seal comes with a lot of quality it still feels like a version 1 car and I will definitely recommend to wait for a version 2, for the following 4 reasons: 1) In the Tesla you get a much more firm and direct driving experience. You feel it especially while steering and while accelerating. 2) Car efficiency measured as kW to milage is lower in the Seal, probably because of the higher weight (´+ 300 kilo) and poor brake regen. 3) In the Seal the Software UI as well as the functionality feel like a generation or two older. Old school menues, different menues to control driving set-up, lot of scrolling up and down etc. Besides that parts of the SW didn't really work while I tested the car a week ago - especially the parts where assisted driving is involved. 4) DC charging is quite slower in the Seal (150 kW) than the Tesla (250 kW) which will leave you wating a lot at the charging stations. An overall conclusion is that the BYD Seal feels a bit like old school car compared to the Tesla.
@Espakho
8 ай бұрын
You see, Seal is intentionally made to feel more like a traditional car, not everyone likes a robot on wheels. Many like me who are 35+ prefer more buttons to control different features. I personally don't understand a car without a driver display, HUD and indicator stalk... Also it's the same about direct steering and suspension, we like a more soft and relaxed driving experience. Another thing is the design, to me, Seal design is more existing than M3. And don't forget the BYD LFP battery tech, which is safer, ages better than NMC, and you can charge it to 100% every time. And you know that 250kw charging speed is the PEAK and it drops below 200kw rapidly, so practically it takes M3 about 20 minutes and 35 minutes for the Seal to charge from 10 to 80%. So, you see the target customer for Seal is cleverly chosen differently than Tesla..
@fatdoi003
8 ай бұрын
LR still has NMC battery and that alone i won't look at 3 LR...
@fatdoi003
8 ай бұрын
@jameschalkwig787 I'm genuinely surprised with those who value charge speed than safety and longevity of the battery.... as if they are absolutely ok to replace the most expensive part of the EV
@rsat9526
8 ай бұрын
And there is nothing wrong with being older school kind of car. I personally feel that the feels and driving experience are akin to the conventional combustion engine car and this is not a bad thing. Afterall, many people look for something they are familiar with while getting the luxury of great performance for the price.
@revrickbibletalks5546
8 ай бұрын
Who do you people always review the top model without any regards to the average consumers? Just frustrating!
@leonkernan
8 ай бұрын
Seems to be a common theme on all the Chinese brands, the safety systems aren't setup for Australian conditions at all.
@rsat9526
8 ай бұрын
mind you your ANCAP is giving it a 5 star safety score.
@LoraJettreck
4 ай бұрын
You're an inspiration to many.
@user-uu2yd4jo6u
8 ай бұрын
Tesla does not have V2L (Vehicle to Load) this is a must have if the power grid goes down. Basically the BYD can become a massive battery (around 6 x larger than a power wall) that can run your home if you stick to the 3KW limit. If you have an off grid system already then you could use the BYD to charge your house batteries for long periods of bad weather that cut solar production. Tesla need to wake up and offer V2L like all BYD and many others.
@andrewjohnston359
8 ай бұрын
the cybertruck does - not sure if existing models ever will
@ezioauditore5616
8 ай бұрын
@@andrewjohnston359 yah, but the cybertruck is not affordable for me at least
@Clove_Parma
7 ай бұрын
@@jeremytineit’s for essentials in an emergency mate I.e. fridge so your food doesn’t spoil and microwave or portable cooktop if needed
@jeremytine
7 ай бұрын
@@Clove_Parma which can be done better with a small $500 generator gas or solar one. in an emergency I'm going to want all the range in an ev for ya know, emergencies 😂. Only use case I see for this is limited camping and that is too niche to be a deciding factor in a 40k-50k purchase.
@Zumaray
6 ай бұрын
Really?? How does that work? I didn’t think it was legal in Australia. Or do you have to have a grid disconnect switch (or whatever it’s called).
@rickyalger8569
8 ай бұрын
They put the steering wheel on the wrong side !🤣🤣🤣🤣
@kompheaklach
6 ай бұрын
ខ្ញុំចង់ចេះបើកឡាន
@michaeltravers6109
7 ай бұрын
BYD cars are stylish, good looking cars, but are utter rubbish.
@HAROINOIR
6 ай бұрын
nah, that is good if you put a Mercedes logo on it, it would be around 250k
@rayredmond8205
6 ай бұрын
The design is not that attractive but I would certainly test drive it to compare with my Tesla
@RoyalIDN45
7 ай бұрын
Velgnya keren
@Spacemonkeymojo
7 ай бұрын
Imagine spending $70k on a Tesla a few years ago when you can get a BYD instead lol. I really dislike the way manufacturers are ditching physical buttons in their cars though. It just adds unneccessary distraction when you want to do something as simple as turn off air recirculation. Absolutely poor design.
@publicfavourite
7 ай бұрын
BYD will beat Tesal easily.
@HenryYeguitarcover
8 ай бұрын
Those safety functions are to save some reckless drivers’ life, doesn’t it worth beeping more? and they are way quieter and less irritating than Toyota’s. Hahahahaha
@MRSTEEL15
6 ай бұрын
Does look nicer than TESLA? But is that really the only difference?
@dallasdrew2390
8 ай бұрын
Great car !!!!
@cupajoe640
8 ай бұрын
Looks like a Chinese copy of model 3. I guess it's good for the tesla haters or those looking for a cheaper alternative
@ipulsandores293
7 ай бұрын
????
@MS23MS23
4 ай бұрын
Better than Tesla in a lot of ways
@henrikhook.
8 ай бұрын
Yes, it IS better!.
@chrisballen7851
8 ай бұрын
Tesla is a $10k car seating on a $60k battery.
@adilator
8 ай бұрын
Why is so cheap in australia compared to europe?
@scofieldxue6176
8 ай бұрын
RCEP协定
@Dreamer10888
8 ай бұрын
I love it
@ibsn87
4 ай бұрын
BYD, is still tied to dealership model, it’s not as safe, not as fast. Not as efficient, not as connected and a significant amount heavier. Has a shorter warranty, Still uses a key fob and doesn’t have auto pilot. The model 3 has global success due to some incredible engineering and features, but people don’t understand that just because the Tesla has a minimal interior, it by no means lacks substance. But no, it doesn’t have a heads up display.
@user-mj9tr3ym5t
8 ай бұрын
What you get in a M3H is basically a few quirks like maybe better software and a better bootspace and a few refinements as well. But this is a 2022 BYD seal you need to be fair and wait for 2024 Seal to come out because BYD updates their models every 2 years so lets keep stuff fair ok? You get more than what you pay for and yet you have grievances? Haha no way.
@bign1667
8 ай бұрын
I'm waiting to see the battery replacement horror stories that tesla and hyaundi customers are facing. But yeah I've been very interested in this car to purchase.
@CBR2900
8 ай бұрын
A very minor 1st world issue, but SO glad that BYD removed that ridiculous Build Your Dreams badging from the rear of this car! So nonsensical and unnecessary.
@vn9528
8 ай бұрын
For me, a good safety system is important. I am not buying as long as it is annoying for someone 😊
@rowenyap3215
8 ай бұрын
Just bought a Seal performance, the safety features can be turned off permanently
@jr800w
8 ай бұрын
It’s going to be like all products eventually. Build up a customer base and then slowly go cheaper with the interior.
@loving_dad_explorer
8 ай бұрын
Drop the service requirement and I might consider switching from Tesla
@RyanCowan
8 ай бұрын
Wow, is that really the only thing holding you back ? 😳
@loving_dad_explorer
8 ай бұрын
@@RyanCowan yeah, pretty major part of vehicle ownership
@9231tomi
8 ай бұрын
With the battery replacement cost way above our pockets, who's going to buy second hand ev? No matter how "affordable" they are when new, the second hand ones probably are going to depreciate way beyond ice vehicles.
@hobo1704
8 ай бұрын
Throw away junk
@borinvlogs
8 ай бұрын
that's why china is selling new evs without selling batteries the idea of is to save the time/space charing, but the ev driver just can drive into a battery swap station and a fully charged battery will be replaced in just 3 mins. brilliant solutions.
@OlyMar83
8 ай бұрын
Tesla still wins for me personally at this point in time. Service costs, less maintenance. Check BYD service cost break down on their website. What are they servicing exactly per visit? The fact that the model 3 has been in the Australian market for a while and has addressed a lot of the quality issues + teslas style, minimal interior, power and range. Still give credit to BYD though for this car.
@reginald7214
8 ай бұрын
Thanks fanboy.
@OlyMar83
8 ай бұрын
@@reginald7214 no probs
@freakybeast5068
8 ай бұрын
@reginald7214 why do you have to be a fan boy to have a preference? Are you a Seal fan boy and have hurt feelings if everyone doesn't agree with you?
@reginald7214
8 ай бұрын
@@freakybeast5068 this is a byd video. Why are you here spamming about Tesla? Are you unable to contain yourself?
@freakybeast5068
8 ай бұрын
@@reginald7214 spamming about Tesla? Do you understand the word spam or is the English language out of your area of comprehension? Come on Reggie who from Tesla hurt you big fella... someone left a comment, you made a dumb one that made you look like a fool, then you got called out. I'm considering getting a BYD or a Tesla both are great cars. Your redundant comment "thanks fanboy" was stupidity, I just like to call out stupidity, which I'd say is of abundance when you join into things 😄😄.
@boonraypipatchol7295
8 ай бұрын
Tesla is better.....
@carlfrancis8565
8 ай бұрын
What needs servicing on an electric car!? What's a con!
@Randomas32
4 ай бұрын
The electronic systems calibration has already been updated and it’s not the cars problem. You should guess that if you’re making reviews. Also Tesla has calibration big problems at lane assist and the deadly auto pilot. Finally teslas suspension is stiff and unbearable in comparison to BYDs suspension. Finally you,forgot to mention that SEAL has blade batteries and Tesla is now buying batteries from BYD. BYDs are much better EVS than Tesla and you’ll figure that out in a year or two. Check Tesla recalls and you’ll lose all your hair 🙂
@michaelrhodes3323
8 ай бұрын
So is this guy paid by BYD?
@donooetomo5213
7 ай бұрын
HYBRID = OK
@johnmccarthy9529
8 ай бұрын
I wonder why there not aloud in chinese citys is it because there poorly built and a bad fire risk.
@richardtan1332
7 ай бұрын
Fake news, over 100k units sold in China in 2023
@universallife681
8 ай бұрын
Tesla is cheaply built.
@borinvlogs
8 ай бұрын
What colour is your Rolls Royce?
@universallife681
8 ай бұрын
@@borinvlogs smart people do not buy brands.
@borinvlogs
8 ай бұрын
@@universallife681 that's what poor people say so that they can feel good about themselves.
@martinloney6322
8 ай бұрын
What absolute rubbish you write.
@universallife681
8 ай бұрын
@@borinvlogs most so called rich people drive flashy cars on loans.
@SaffaInNewZealand
8 ай бұрын
BYD? The dumbest name in the world! If I bought one and drive it I’m clearly not Building My Dreams but rather Driving My Dreams or something to that effect. Talk about blowing your own horn, for that reason alone I wouldn’t buy one . The owner is clearly narcissistic.
@simonleo4197
8 ай бұрын
Quality is just not reliable.
@edc1569
8 ай бұрын
Choice between supporting musks Twitter or the CCP, not much between them these days.
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