Finding out Klyden was born female was such a huge turning point for the character. Suddenly so many things make sense.
@averycheesypotato
Жыл бұрын
It explains a lot, but he’s still a shit. It takes truly great acting to pull off a character like that lol
@shuttlecrossing1433
Жыл бұрын
@@averycheesypotato He gets better.
@jackmakila3776
Жыл бұрын
I dont blame be to much he went through transing and likes his life he likes the choice that was made for him so he thought his daughter would feel the same
@Influx27
Ай бұрын
To be fair, we only briefly see him in his first episode, and in his second we learn he was originally female. I wouldn't even say he'd had an hour total of screen time before we learned he was female. Seems like less of a turning point and more of an introduction.
@birubu
Ай бұрын
Internalized gynophobia goes deep in moclan society
@loganhoffner4178
Жыл бұрын
"What is it like to be so wise?" The one time Bortus actually understands sarcasm.
@PeachWookiee
Жыл бұрын
I love how he made that statement...
@KenshiImmortalWolf
4 ай бұрын
I think the thing is Bortus is better with Dry sarcasm like that over wet sarcasm where you take on a Tone with it.
@danieldickson8591
Жыл бұрын
Klyden does not yet recognize that Topa is already on the path to despair, and is trying to find the way off.
@xxlCortez
Жыл бұрын
Topa was struggling but being a female in the Moclan society is being an outcast.
@Toneill029
8 ай бұрын
@@xxlCortez It’s exactly like that of a lot of LGBT teens face today. Topa’s story is very much both a trans and intersex one. And from what I’m getting off these clips a damn good one at that.
@korsekil
Ай бұрын
Exactly this. Her "unhappiness" was only going to get worse and worse and she wouldn't even know what was going on. And the consequences for that growing agony are dire like they are in our reality.
@gulox8241
22 күн бұрын
@@korsekil Still in this show without her choice she became a man so later on changed back to being gender she was born with.
@thedarkebika9488
11 күн бұрын
@@Toneill029aahhh Hell nah! It is trans in reverse! Toba "did not fell like a female" she *was* a female! Infact it is moclans ARE the lgbtq in here, forcing Kids to tyrans-gender just cause the adults wants them too
@MALLYGEEZ1
Жыл бұрын
The way he asked Klyden what is it like to be so wise was powerful.
@djduncan956
Ай бұрын
111th like
@xxlCortez
Жыл бұрын
The main issue here is that Klyden had no outsider friends who would give him support which made his case different from Topa's.
@brokeneyes6615
Жыл бұрын
Seriously, props to the concept, writers and actors who bring these two characters to life.
@bryanalexander7571
Жыл бұрын
I feel as though Klyden is that gay teen who was forced to undergo conversion therapy and is just terrified to go against the programming.
@oreolaw9911
Жыл бұрын
Definitely agree with you I’m a trans-woman but I went through gender conversion therapy and I was terrified for several years after that to be who I truly am
@MilloSpiegel
Жыл бұрын
I like what they did with Klydens character later on when he SPOILER:Does go against the system and for his family
@spaghetti1641
Жыл бұрын
Exactly, he is by our definition a trans man and is guilty for being born in the wrong body. So he believes Topa must have been the same when she was really cis female all along. He can't face both of them being right. Regardless the choice should have always been his and not his society's to make.
@oreolaw9911
Жыл бұрын
@@spaghetti1641 Honestly not sure if he is a trans-man . A big part of being transgender is transitioning and klyden only really went through one part of transitioning and that is the change of body the most important part of transitioning is the social transition which he never actually went through . klyden is technically not cis but that doesn’t make him trans , transgender isn’t The opposite of cisgender and typically it is more complex than that
@KristiContemplates
Жыл бұрын
Trauma, shame, and humiliation as tools for behavioural modification. Strong, and Wrong.
@0INFERNO1
Жыл бұрын
I will give Klyden this one, Ignorance is sometimes bliss. There are things I would have been happier not knowing. Sometimes knowing is worse than not knowing.
@sanhcman666
Жыл бұрын
My grandpa somehow would agree. If he would live now, he already would join russia or china against western block, or directly arm catalunya rebels in spain. He maybe waa one of handful of people that are not afraid of a WW3 or any WW He once said europeans always underestimate natives and latins, even at the worst acts.
@KristiContemplates
Жыл бұрын
Only if it makes you feel powerless and you doubt people won't hurt you
@kagato23
Жыл бұрын
@@sanhcman666 to accomplish what exactly? I’m not intending to argue with you, just genuinely wondering what you think would lead him to conclude that was best,
@sanhcman666
Жыл бұрын
@@kagato23 My grandpa was very anti western. If he, by some miracel, could had warheads, he knew where to aim and fire.
@kagato23
Жыл бұрын
@@sanhcman666 so he wanted to start WW3? Cause that’s what happens when you shoot the warheads.
@jamesspencer1997
Жыл бұрын
These guys level of acting is just tremendous, they play the parts very well it goes beyond being a work of fiction it becomes something real tangible.
@BlueLantern2815
2 ай бұрын
I like how they display Kliden point of view as understandable if incorrect. It would have been so simple to have him as the grr evil represive parent is afraid of the unfamiliar, but they gave him an incredibly neuanced perspective motivated ewually by love and fear
@thanhavictus
Жыл бұрын
This is actually a really good metaphor for internalized prejudice
@KristiContemplates
Жыл бұрын
Despair is unhappiness mixed with hopelessness due to feelings of fear and not trusting the ones you are now at the mercy of
@waross8214
Жыл бұрын
And having a living daughter is better than having a dead son
@brandonhammond4953
Жыл бұрын
Any parent who's lost a child, boy or girl, either through death or kidnapping, would rather have that child back and not a replacement child.
@waross8214
Жыл бұрын
@@brandonhammond4953 feel like you're kind of missing the point
@PeachWookiee
Жыл бұрын
@Brandon Hammond: The point was to accept Topa, male or female. The only detail that changes aboard the Orville is that Topa is addressed as “she” or “her” rather than “he” or “him.” Klyden and Bortus are raising a child together and should love that child, no matter what.
@HSG1999
Жыл бұрын
She never mentioned that part to them about topa conversation with issac.
@Icebergeification
Жыл бұрын
Except you don't know that would have happened because he WAS a teen going through puberty and thanks to Kelly's meddling he embraced a self fulfilling prophecy
@lizd2943
Жыл бұрын
And yet Topa was in despair.
@seekingabsolution1907
Жыл бұрын
1:05 this is a very good analysis of this mentality. The parent too scared for their child's well being to tell them things they need to know.
@Icebergeification
Жыл бұрын
But the child dosen't need to to know you just want the child to know so you can feel better about yourself because if you do what Kelly wanted to do and just blurt out the whole truth to him and let him figure out it really could destroy him it's an incredibly selfish thing to do especially to a child
@BrowncoatGofAZ
11 ай бұрын
@@Icebergeification so is changing the child’s gender without any input from the child themselves. And the longer you hold onto a secret, the more damage it does down the line. Especially when those involved discover it for themselves.
@JDog2656
10 ай бұрын
@@Icebergeificationnot saying I disagree, but at the same time it should not be a condemnable action. At its core it is a weakness and fear we all share to avoid pain. Is it selfish? Sure. But at the same time it’s one of those grey areas where it’s never that clear. It is more prudent to understand that going forward so that both sides know what the other needs.
@JasonCiardullo1
Ай бұрын
Unhappiness is better than despair but it eventually and inevitably leads to despair.
@kurogane9167
28 күн бұрын
Jusg love the growth of Bortus, going against his peoples traditions just to make sure his child is happy
@PaperiLiidokki
Жыл бұрын
Unhappiness or despair can be overcome, they aren't definitive finalities, only if they are believed to be such they become so
@oreolaw9911
Жыл бұрын
If the thing that is causing the unhappiness or despair stays it is very difficult to get rid of those emotions
@Icebergeification
Жыл бұрын
Clearly you've never been ostracized for one exterior quality in your life because that's not something you can just get rid of with a can do attitude speaking from experience, you've so ready been written off by society as a freak
@kleerauber3931
Жыл бұрын
When Star Treks cooles brother handles the gender debate betten than actual society:
@andrasbalogh4291
2 ай бұрын
I found it very surprising how after 2-3 episodes the tone of the series shifted from goofy to very serious with funny moments sprinkled all over. It is clear that Seth wanted to do hard core Star Trek, was denied, then pitches is Trek-like sci-fi, was denied, then he pitched his "Family guy funny" sci-fi, that was green lit, and he said, suck it, I'm making my Trek-like sci-fi.
@kimberlyakin8908
Жыл бұрын
This was done so well Bravo to the writers.
@craithteemeghan5311
Жыл бұрын
Would love if they did an alternate reality / timeline story if only for one episode where it would be possible to see what Klyden would have been like if she had remained female! Understand Klyden's motivations better after watching this clip!
@warrenreid6109
Жыл бұрын
She would've been a nag for sure.
@kimberlyakin8908
Жыл бұрын
Let's Hope she isn't a Karen LOL
@AbyssalDrake88
Жыл бұрын
@@warrenreid6109 *Sees posit as to what might have happened Had Klyden had not had his gender forced on him* "Oh, looks like an opportunity for some casual sexism!"
@electricangel4488
Жыл бұрын
While he might have less internal problems he might have some more external problems in his society. Good way to show the core validaty in both there points fo view.
@lizaramirez-garcia5944
Жыл бұрын
Hmmm…. Klydan may have been killed if parents chose to keep her as is. Or u mean like if they managed to escape the planet ?
@TraciPeteyforlife
Жыл бұрын
Klyden and Bortus are just so intensely good characters.
@themarlboromandalorian
Жыл бұрын
Just victims. All around. Everybody in this has a good point. And I don't think we ought fault any of it. However, a slave, even if they do not know they are a slave, is still, a slave.
@XultanisDragon
Жыл бұрын
I understand the premise behind the phrase but disagree with it entirely. Depends on what they know and ignorance is bliss. If a person doesn't realize the extent of whats possible then they are not missing out. There are ingenious tribes that still exist that have no idea about the outside world. They live in huts, hunt, probably die from small cuts that lead to infections, but whose to say they don't live more fulfilled then we do with all our technology, internet, and social media? If people know there is more to life then they fill like they are missing out, if people believe they are living their life to the fullest then regardless of the type of life doesn't negate that they are living better lives then some of us are even though objectively we would believe its worse.
@shinethief3785
Жыл бұрын
That's it. I'm rewatching Orville
@Snowie7826
Жыл бұрын
I have certain issues with the way they went about this arc, but I really like the way it's acted. Both parents are acting out of a sense of genuine love and care, just from different perspectives.
@Toneill029
8 ай бұрын
Unfortunately one was ultimately in the wrong with his forcing the same harmful standards thrust upon him. You understand what he means to his people to be female, a woman, is to be unnatural, inferior, and a mistake to be fixed. A life that would have meant discrimination or worse in his peoples society. That pain is very real but it’s sadly done to hurt people even in the real world.
@demiserofd
7 ай бұрын
It's a shame they gave up on the morally grey approach and turned the Moclan into mustache-twirling villains. Apparently letting the viewers decide was too hard, so they had to add torture into the mix. Pretty lame.
@williammorahan4907
Ай бұрын
Maybe they’ll bring that grey back in the next season.
@somethingbanter
Ай бұрын
The only thing that led him through a life of despair was a culture that made him feel that way. It drives me up the wall that none of them have decided to do anything about that in the union.
@BrowncoatGofAZ
11 ай бұрын
Klyden isn’t entirely correct. Topa would have found out the truth for themselves eventually, either through their own curiosity or through the feelings of not feeling real within their own skin. And the longer a secret is held, the more damage it does when it is finally revealed. And leaving them without an answer as to why they feel so uncomfortable with themselves is no different from despair.
@cheepeeksmcacreet3668
Жыл бұрын
Still can’t believe klyden is the dude from the walking dead lol
@tonyj9743
Жыл бұрын
And Z, the guy under the bridge, from It's always sunny in Philadelphia. Dude has acting range.
@CJusticeHappen21
Жыл бұрын
Misery and happiness are born of the same thing; the comparison of one state of being to that of some other.
@user-kn3sv6jg4h
2 ай бұрын
Yep, you're right. I will never see them as anything other than Seth's version of the Krogan. :)
@sanhcman666
Жыл бұрын
So Klyden tried a lot to fit in Moclan society? To the extremes of being like a gay acting homophobic?
@rocketguardian2001
Жыл бұрын
Makes sense to me. Self-loathing sometimes spills out to people who suffer the same identity issues.
@wisteria3032
9 күн бұрын
knowing what happens later on and having seen other scenes because of course I would see spoilers, when I saw this video title about a scene I still hadn't watched I was totally convinced that this phrase would have been uttered by Bortus and would have been about Topa being in despair right now and that being able to be herself may have made her unhappy because she would be left out of Moclan's society but at least she wouldn't have been desperate because of how she felt with herself in every moment.
@stephenbyrne2170
Жыл бұрын
1:17-1:25 But who are you, to decide that?
@Toneill029
Ай бұрын
Sad thing is…there are real world people who believe this whole heartedly.
@BlueVenom9
Жыл бұрын
unhappiness leads to dispare they are not exclusive, there is honestly no way to win in this situation, someone will be hurt no matter what
@rayzermaniac5218
3 ай бұрын
Nu Trek Writers: "So we need our ship to be able to go anywhere at any time. Let's give it a spinning magic mushroom drive" Orville Writers: "Let's create a thoroughly well written and thought provoking story based on real world issues that many are facing today".
@l0rdapophis
3 ай бұрын
Finding out Klyden was born female just answered so many questions for me 🤣😭
@nilava.sinistar
9 күн бұрын
The scary part of this is Klyden is right, if not for the Union help. Without Union help, Topa really cannot become female, or she will be killed or subjected to despair. And yes, the wrong part is when he is disbelief Union can help him and refuse it
@l.tc.5032
3 күн бұрын
Do you think Klyden was jealous of Topa? It seems implied that Klyden felt the same dysphoria that Topa is and is saying that Topa will get over it because he was basically forced to, and when Topa decided she was not going to do that and just go back to female, That deep down he wishes he could have had that same opportunity and is resentful that he wasn't given that chance and as such lashes out and advocates against it.
@Johnston212
4 ай бұрын
Those who think that unhappiness is different from despair, know nothing of the depths of depression.
@gabrielleclennon6589
2 ай бұрын
Wait Bortus has a Husband? At least he’s got love ❤ and compassion for Topa
@eternafuentedeluzdivina3189
Жыл бұрын
Dispair or despair? Heil thesaurus! 🙋🏻
@christianhofer5020
Жыл бұрын
Thanks.
@SansoHumar
2 ай бұрын
And yet I’ve never seen them kiss
@BrowncoatGofAZ
3 ай бұрын
1:26 A lifetime of unhappiness? How is that better?
@wisteria3032
9 күн бұрын
In the way that being uncertain about yourself is better than being disgusted by yourself. It's a bit difficult to understand if you don't live in a society that has such strong prejudice against someone for any reason, a society in which you are perfectly integrated. I think the best example I could think of is the story of that man who, due to a mental illness (I don't remember the details but could try and look it up if you're interested) suddenly thought that he was a pedophile. He remembered having molested his own daughter and was so disgusted and disappointed with himself that he kept trying to kill himself and wouldn't see her because of how ashamed he was. He had done nothing of the sort, it was his illness that made him "remember" horrible things. His daughter managed to convince him after a long time but he never could see himself in the same way before he literally remembered doing that. That's how it is when you are integrated in a society that holds disgust towards something (wether right or wrong) and you suddenly find out you belong to the disgusting group instead of the good one.
@BrowncoatGofAZ
9 күн бұрын
@@wisteria3032 I’m neurodivergent, so I can understand that to a degree. According to some in society, I’m mentally ill. I don’t subscribe to it. We all have demons inside of us, and it’s fine to fear them and even be horrified by them. But we can learn to accept them and how to manage and control them. And it helps to do that if we know what they are. Your example didn’t, and it drove him to despair. Klyden clearly couldn’t do that, but there’s no reason to think Topa wouldn’t have been able to, even if they chose to stay male.
@wisteria3032
9 күн бұрын
@@BrowncoatGofAZ no, but the main difference between Kayden and Topa is the society they grew in. Klyden grew up in a Moclan society where the sole idea of femininity was a source of disgust. It's not that he couldn't accept the female within himself, it's that he learned to hate it way before finding out he was one and couldn't reconcile the two things. Topa grew up on a Union ship, where he had access to many examples of respected women. He knew only two other Moclans, his own parents, one of which was quite open minded and was clear about loving and accepting him whatever he may choose. The other one was definitely more militant but he was one person, not everyone. Also he couldn't properly instill the disgust for females in Topa because even if they were of another species he was surrounded by perfectly integrated females. Klayden's reasons weren't wrong, he just didn't took into consideration that Topa wasn't living in the same society he had lived in for his whole life and that this could change things. He never thought about the nurture part of nature vs nurture. The same applies to you - I don't know you, have never seen you and have never conversed with you. I don't know your sex, your age, your culture. If you hadn't told me you are neurodivergent I would have never thought of it. In this case you are in the same situation Topa is in, where you may have issues with yourself but society is divided about what you should do or simply doesn't care, which leaves you free to assess the situation and decide for yourself, with the assurance that even if someone doesn't accept you as you are you will always be able to find someone who will. Now what if you had lived in another place and time, a small village in the 1200s? Would you have been able to think so freely if your whole world thought that some behaviours or thoughts were unacceptable? Or would you have bowed to what society asked of you because the only other option would have been to be an outcast, ridiculed or pitied, denied any kind of social interaction, not listened to because of your obvious mental deficiency and probably pointed at as the prime suspect for most crimes because of your inability to make any judgement? would you have had the strength to fight for yourself alone, especially as a child, or would you have ended up masking it so well that you would be the first one to point your fingers at other neurodivergent people just so that no one could accuse you of being different? (I don't know what you have and maybe nothing at all would have happened, but I think that if you are able to mask it, it's easier to mask it and be unhappy than to show it and be shunned) At the end of the day we are social animals. And we tend to forget that society shapes us way more than we like to think. And the education we receive as children is of the utmost importance. We also tend to forget that children get their education from everyone and everything they see, not just by what we knowingly offer them. Sorry, sounds like I am preaching. It's not the case, it's just that I see so many people who think they would be able to fight for their ideals in every kind of society and fail to notice that their ideals are due to the society they live in. My mom used to tell my dad that if he had been born a Muslim he would have already suicide-bombed himself. I believe she was right.
@BrowncoatGofAZ
9 күн бұрын
@@wisteria3032 you have a point, but there is another option, one that we’ve seen time and time again. We find places within society where we can be accepted. They even show this in the Orville, with the Moclan Female enclave.
@wisteria3032
9 күн бұрын
@@BrowncoatGofAZ yep. And in the end Klayden comes to accept his daughter although it's not clear wether or not he comes to accept himself. But people seem to expect that he would reject a lifetime of indoctrination in a heartbeat... because of love. While love is powerful it is useless if you already think you are doing what's best for your loved ones. Actually it could get the opposite result (doubling down on his initial ideals) untill confronted with some evidence of why it was wrong (it did need Topa to get beaten and almost killed for him to understand his way of loving his daughter had some cons). btw, it's nice to be able to have an actual conversation instead of screaming slogans at each other. I very much enjoyed our exchange.
@aethertech
Жыл бұрын
Looks like an awfully healthy meal that they are having? I thought they ate mostly shoe leather, cigarettes and toxic waste?
@vadarman9906
Жыл бұрын
Common Klyden L
@louisgauna8729
Жыл бұрын
Im kind of on klydon side it best there son doesn't know cuz if other of there kind find out the might hate him for being different.
@henryreed4697
Жыл бұрын
So basically be accepted by your culture, but remain utterly miserable? Yeah, I disagree heavily with your assessment here.
@averycheesypotato
Жыл бұрын
You have to be able to live with yourself, before you concern yourself with the opinions of others. Topa was struggling. One of their parents, and all of their friends & neighbours aboard the Orville are there to support them once the secret comes out. There is also a movement to change the way their oppressive home world treats its people. Truth is better
@wisteria3032
9 күн бұрын
Topa was extremely lucky because she was born and raised in a place where she would actually be able to be herself and be accepted for what she is. Klyden had lived in a Moclan society his whole life. Topa grew up with strong female examples and a lot of love by everyone. Klyden grew up in an extreme ideology. Had Topa lived as a Moclan instead of living as a Union member then Klyden's call would have been correct. You can live with yourself in a society that accepts you even if you are unhappy. Or you can live alone, rejecting society and other people's views.... but only if you are strong enough. Children, no matter how talented or strong willed are not, in fact, strong enough. You can't base the growth of a child on the exclusion by everyone else. It's something that Topa should have chosen for himself after he had reacher maturity and could decide wether he was strong enough to leave his society or if it would be better to accept his life as it was.
@warrenreid6109
Жыл бұрын
Score one for klydon.
@henryreed4697
Жыл бұрын
How so?
@jordanbetteridge1598
Жыл бұрын
You do know Klydon is shown to be really bigoted and backwards and shown to eventually repent, right?
@sceetherthenadder
Жыл бұрын
What I dislike about the Moclans is how they created an environment that disregards and tortures girls, AND THEN use that as justification. And I hate the parents, like Klyden, who permit the cycle to continue.
@andrewmarsjr9879
2 ай бұрын
A
@tteros5998
Жыл бұрын
i'm glad they were brave enough to do a whole plot line about what de-transitioners have to go through, and the attempts to silence them
@lizd2943
4 күн бұрын
That's one way to look at it. Another is that it's analogous to what actual trans and intersex people go through where their culture tries to impose its own ideas of gender on them instead of listening to them.
@masamune2984
Жыл бұрын
“From the creator of Family Guy! A parody of Star Trek!” Also this. (I know this is the oldest joke in history, but still!!! how have we gotten to this point??? We have stupid dialogue and fart jokes from Star Trek, and brilliant drama from The Orville.”…
@watchm4ker
7 ай бұрын
The first season was a 'parody'. Then they just dropped the pretense and just made the following two seasons an off-brand Star Trek with a bit more comedy. It would have been savaged had Star Trek *itself* not been struggling to find itself for over a decade.
@Wesley-1776
Жыл бұрын
People defending this as pro Trans. Topa was forced to transition against her will as a child by an abusive society. She later reclaimed her birth sex and was basically attacked by her culture for daring to challenge the status quo and deny their ideas on forced transitioning for kids. This storyline actually hits more points for the conservative argument on the Trans debate than it does the progressive one.
@Melonmancer
Жыл бұрын
What 'conservative argument' are you referring to exactly? Is it a common conservative line that allowing trans people rights is the same as forcibly transitioning all kids?
@Wesley-1776
Жыл бұрын
@@Melonmancer for some people I’m sure that’s the argument. Mine personally is I have no problem with consenting adults transitioning. I have problems with all these kids that are coming out now as being forced to transition and breaking down into tears because they may never be able to have kids normally because their parents or therapists pushed them into transitioning way to young. Without making sure they actually had gender dysphoria.
@Melonmancer
Жыл бұрын
@@Wesley-1776 "all these kids" ? You're going to have to be more specific. You have a source for this? Some statistics? I'd also like something for 'unable to have kids' if you have the information on that.
@Wesley-1776
Жыл бұрын
@@Melonmancer This is just the first example I found after searching “girls talks about being forced to transition” but trust me it just keeps going and going after that. kzitem.info/news/bejne/rKyQ05aVmIpyZ6w
@PurpleM70
Жыл бұрын
@@Wesley-1776 who is forcing kids to be trans? Honest to god who.
@user-th9jt4es5i
Ай бұрын
And thisnis why you shouldn't mess with a childs body before they have a say.
@Icebergeification
Жыл бұрын
This is why I hate kelly, she involved herself in a family affair that was none of her business just to make herself feel better and than acts all self righteous when klyden calls her out on her bullshit
@blusafe1
Жыл бұрын
Topa was on the edge of suicide with (his) dysphoria. You're not going to fix that without an intervention. As XO, it was Kelly's moral and legal responsibility to deal with it.
@Icebergeification
Жыл бұрын
@@blusafe1 no it wasn't her responsibility legally or otherwise to interfere with a civilian families internal affairs regardless of how she felt about it much less when it meant causing a homewreck for an enlisted officer, she was not petitioned for aid by any family member and as far as intervention goes she should have just let klyden handle it because he was the only one on that ship that could have possibly understood what topa was experiencing
@henryreed4697
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@@Icebergeification he didn't understand what topa was going through. Just because he went through a transition that doesn't make him an expert in his daughters. His experience is his own, he shouldn't project his own opinions and feelings unto another who is reacting differently who is experiencing a similar situation. Everyone reacts to the same thing differently.
@Icebergeification
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@@henryreed4697 he wasn't projecting, he literally on a biological level went through the same as topa and turned out fine if not egregiously sexist and now ropa has the added benefit of having someone in his life who went through what he did
@henryreed4697
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@@Icebergeification you're missing my whole point. Topa is a completely different person, she won't react the same way as her father. As evidently she didn't considering she contemplating suicide. Her father didn't go through the exact same thing as she did. They had the same starting point, but different paths were taken by both people. They have have went through the same biological events, psychological though they haven't.
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