Hi, I hope you fine. I found interesting post in German forum. It called wie Langsam ist Langsam. I think you could calculate time for few mm and post there to compare slow speed records.
@2dezineart
4 ай бұрын
I just received a version 3 cab forward and want to make it DCC. How did you mount the motor? I thank you for all of your help.
@hrvojetrains1816
4 ай бұрын
Unfortunately I lost the only picture i made when I replaced the original motor. But motor I linked due to its dimensions fits nicely in place of original one - you only need to fix it somehow on locomotive chassis. I glued it with AC glue, but I suggest making a cradle (e.g. from styrene sheets) to hold the motor in place. Original motor is flat, new motor is cylindrical so it is good to place it in some kind of holder (cradle) and then glue all to locomotive chassis. It is really complicated to open the locomotive to get to the motor - I did it once, and do not want to repeat that again.
@ScaniaVabis580
4 ай бұрын
Great work on the upgrades, looks to run faultlessly with a fantastic crawl. The sound decoder/ speaker setup sounds very well too. I have the chance to buy one of these Intermountain ac-12 cab forward model's... 59002S. I'm not really up to speed on the version 1&2 faults as such but from what i understand the motor's were hit and miss with very low rpm's? The model in question has apparently had a new motor so that would suggest that it's a version 1 run but is it worth getting i wonder. I've been repairing and modifying models for the best part of 20 years but the stories that I've heard are somewhat, off putting. Many thanks
@hrvojetrains1816
4 ай бұрын
Hi, thanks for nice words. My model is version 3, so it had new, strong NWSL motor, but as I wrote, this motor has strong cogging so I replaced it with better motor. I did not want to buy versions 1 and 2 because of their faults, which were not just a weak motor, but also wheels falling apart (!!), wrong gear ratio (low speed) etc.
@ScaniaVabis580
4 ай бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 hi, many thanks for the information there - wheels falling apart has just made my mind up... I think I'll leave it with that in mind. Happy modelling and best regards
@Alexander_Sth
8 ай бұрын
Also, got potentiometer 0-10K. Would like to say that working solution should be about 10-30 Om only. With my new 10K potentiometer with one turning range quite hard to regulate, guess need to have 0-100 Om with few turnings regulator. And much much powerful, because it heats and smell. About connection I use it like normal potentiometer with all connection, I do not understand why, but I can not see that on your video... It looks like you connect it like rheostat. Can you explain a little bit your connection?
@hrvojetrains1816
8 ай бұрын
Potentiometer has 3 connectors, I used two and coneccted them between one output of Piko FZ1 and track, the other Piko output was connected directly - so I assume, it is "rheostat" connection. And yes, it was very difficult to find a sport where voltage drops so much. But in my case, I did not smeel anything. My potentiometer has a range 0 - 50 kOhm.
@Alexander_Sth
8 ай бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 yeah, like rheostat.. So obviously first of all you change current not voltage. That kind of potentiometer needs extra components, because all of them have very small power limit. You are lucky not to burn it (thanks to coreless motor and even not sure that pots track are ok now), but you could if you use it with normal motor. I burned 2 of them - 0.125W and 0.06W :) One with connected to old phone power 5V 800mA. I just connected it to rail without train or motor test and immediately it made white smoke:) After I was looking manuals and videos why potentiometer burns. Usually they have 0.06-1W limit only. And that is with full resistance. So if you put smallest position you should divide that limit. For example 1 from 100% = would be 0.01W (from 1W datasheet) only :) So no matter how to connect, like rheostat or potentiometer you will damage it. many people burned it from 4 AA battary with motors. I have not idea how to protect it otherwise than to choose some powerful ceramit variants, like 25W. I've ordered 100 Om 2W pot, possible it could handle coreless motors, but not normal Roco\Hag\PIko motors with LED drivers. Anyway 100-300 Om pots with few regulator turning should make more fun to precision tunning :) After you wrote me this answer I tried my Maxon DCX 18V motor with rheostat connection and found that it works with 100-150 Ohm resistance (starting with 650-700 mV with heavy Maxon gear). Veeery slowly and constant:) So after I tried it with 120 Ohm 1W resistor and it works more or less similar without too much heat of resistor :) For normal motors 100-120 is too much, even 24 could be more than needed.
@Alexander_Sth
8 ай бұрын
How did you connect your potentiometer? I replayed video many times and didn's saw it. Did you connect red wire also for potentiometer?
@Alexander_Sth
8 ай бұрын
Hi, I have some questions about your DC case... 1 What kind of potentiometer and resistance range did you used? There are a lot of them... I used more primitive way with lamps... 2 Min and max voltage after potentiometer with your Piko FZ1? 3 How you got stable dynamic in such lower range with trafo??? Usually it would lose contact and stop. Or you need any half wave trafo like Titan or Fleischmann which run motor very stable in small range. 4 I found cat and dog play if we trying to lower trafo voltage.. For motor dynamics it is definately great! But for LED you need to lower starting voltage as well, and it could be a problem to start LED just before motor starting. You could see that your light (bulb\led?) switching after locomotive run fast. I use some extra component for LED with LED driver to start it lower than 3V but need to improve it. I heard that it is possible to start LED with some kind of 0.150V, but guess for locomotive it is not possible because we always need to protect LED with extra components. Raise motor voltage also is not a variant because you could lose half wave range of such trafo. The conclusion of your and some of my tests (see video with lamps experiment) shows that DC dynamics could be almost, (same or even better) than DCC depending on decoder model comprasions. But stays questions about LED control improvement and locomotive dynamic stability in lower range.
@hrvojetrains1816
8 ай бұрын
I used simple potentiometer that I had at home (I do not know the resistance range, I could measure), for example like this one: quartzcomponents.com/products/100k-potentiometer. Voltage was variable (with motor running) because not only due to motor running, but also due to Piko FZ-1 itself (it cannot provide 100% stable voltage in so low voltage range) and also the same applies for potentiometer (cheap), as seen on video. The aim of this video was to show that this motor can move locomotive with so low voltage (due it power/torque), but also excellent drive-train of this locomotive (cardan joints, worm, gears and wheel axles) with obviously very low resistance. Related to stable dynamic, as first, I cleaned tracks and wheels, and second, this locomotive obviously has excellent pickup.
@Alexander_Sth
8 ай бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 could be possible to use 10k potentiometer? I've just already ordered those few days ago.. Could you measure resistance of the excact position of your potentiometer which suit such a low voltage? I've ordered those chinese motor for test as well. To lower LED starting voltage I use ZXLD381 with induction, 120 Ohm resistor, 3.3V stabilizer, Schottky diodes and some capacitors. I can start it from 2V with halfwave trafo or about 1,5V from PWM new Piko regler. With some of old motors it works ok, LED starting before motor, but some motors have less starting voltage. Maybe you could try to find the solution as well.
@Hornhausen
10 ай бұрын
Amazing.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hello, it is time to make new video for inspiration... :)
@SteamFan42
Жыл бұрын
I may emulate your motor replacement. I just got one of these models, either from the first or second run. I know the issues people have had with these models and this could be a good fix. Do you know which version is this model is?
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
It is a third run. This motor has no issues, but motor has huge cogging and therefore I decided to replace it.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hi, my tests with pencils. The results of P value you can see in the last 4 sec of video. I will delete this comment after your answer. nysQ3kbC8jQ
@L.J.MoBaTrains
Жыл бұрын
Nothing surprising about Hrvoje's work. The thing about him , he goes out of the way to show !
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hi! Great research. What is your name? Seems fantastic dynamic on lower voltage which is unusual for DC system. Much much better than with DCC+standard 3 or 5 pole motor. So you broke the rules. Try to make some easy construction above the rail to put there your phone. That could help to see real smoothness on low speeds. I use some plastic boxes and wood board, and 120-240 fps record. This videos can be slower up to 10 times to see small imperfections. PS Definitely need to make report of your apartment/house:) View from window looks like Swiss. You are very lucky with such emotional picture :))) Alex
@kevinezhong
Жыл бұрын
I am a seller of motors. I am so happy and honored that our motor is working perfectly on your train。zhong chengye
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
Zhong chengye, thank you for accepting my proposal to organise manufacture of this motor -:)
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hi! You have good motor, but you need to make 18 and 24 V versions. 12 is not enough for modern DCC systems. “The caveat to this solution is the NMRA Standard S-9.1.2 state the command station must operate at a voltage between +-8 and 22Vdcc.” Usually on track 16, 18 or 21 V. Some expansive stations like Roco Black Z21 or Zimo can adjust voltage, standard can not do this. My Z21 by default use 18 V, which is great for 18 or 24 V Maxon motors. So it is better to make options to choose clients 12, 18 or 24 V motors.
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
@@Alexander_Sth It is not necesarry to use 18/24V motor for HO DCC. On tracks you have up to 22V, that is correct - but decoder decreases that voltage for motor. You can define with almost any decoder exactly the voltage which will be applied to motor. For example, for Zimo MX decoders, you use CV 57 to define voltage for motor regulation. For ESU decoder reference motor voltage is defined by CV 53, if I remember well. Soundtraxx also offers to define reference voltage, etc. If full 22V would be applied to motor, most locomotives would run extremely fast when speed knob is turned to max. position, and motors would burn very soon because most motors in model trains are designed for 15V maximum, and most DC powerpacks have at output 14 VDC max. Beside that, many old locomotives that are not DCC ready because they are 40 or more years old were later converted to DCC and only what you had to do to use them safely is to replace 12 V bulbs with 16V bulbs or even better, LEDs (sometimes it even helps to decrease voltage for bulbs using appropriate decoder CVs, and old bulbs can be used) .
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Did you measure voltage which send decoder to the motor? Mine is 16V at full speed steps on the motor with 18V on the rail. That is far from 12V. Of course you can and need to cut voltage with 57, but depending on the situation. Also less voltage motor means more current. More voltage motor means less current and you can use more powerful motor which can work more easy with start. In your and my struggle for prototype start it is very important. You can compare different Maxon motors with different voltage and found that best and most powerful motor which meet decoder requirement are 1 place 18V, 2 place 24V, because size is different. Voltage cutting with CV 57 is tuning instrument, which should be used to find max speed depending on weight, prototype speed and so on. If you will need more than 12V your 12V motor will heat up, that is no good for it and decoder near. If you use CV 57 to meet motor voltage that is not nice, because you lose range of your possibilities. I agree with you that for antic locomotive if you have old system as well it is possible to use 12V motor if you checked those parameter for station and decoder (also antic). In normal situation like your and mine it is better to use 18 or 24V motor with modern and previous mainstream (99%) ESU and Zimo decoders. Sometimes those people who has 12V or even less voltage motors in antic locos recommended to use some small electronic things to reduce voltage if they need to save their historical motor. So we can figure out that for Mr. Kevine Zhong it is much better to prepare 18 and 24 voltage motors for modern systems.
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
@@Alexander_Sth You can always reduce input voltage to your digital station if you replace transformer/adapter, like I did - I use 16V at old Roco digital station input, I bought voltage adapter like one for laptops. I use no more than 16V at DCC station input to be safe while using capacitors designed for 16V. Original voltage Roco adapter really provides much higher voltage, which I do not need. New Roco Z21 (black) allows you to set track voltage in range 12-24V. www.z21.eu/en/products/z21
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hi, happy to see your new video. Great as usual. Coreless motors are the best. Does this Chinese motor have neodymium magnets as your Maxon? You told about saving motor&decoder, how much stall current of this motor is? I’m sure less than Zimo 2.5A, so it would be ok if something would be blocked. You can use multimeter to measure current of blocked motor without decoder. Usually it is below 2A, some motors even 1A. 1 - Regarding smoothness, on 1 speed step these motor stumbles few times 1.07-1.19. After is ok. 2 - For changing direction tests you need to switch off any speed correction (CV 3,4, extended acceleration/brake times). In this pure toy mode, you will see how your PID (cruise control) settings are working, because it would be free of any “helper” which hide any imperfection of PID. Speed extenders just free PID regulator of it’s most work so you do not see difference unless your PID is badly unperfect. PID in this toy mode work 100% because it needs to make all correction very fast and accurately only those which are needed. If not correct, loco would make ride mistakes which will fade out. Not sure, but perhaps we see that in 1.07-1.19. If you have best settings or almost best your train would ride and change direction very fast in “toy mode”. You will feel very pleasure elastic control. After happy testing you can set acceleration/brake times. This is not most and only test, but it help to see as well. 3 - wheel axle is good, but motor settings need much more accurate thing to see PWM vibration. Need to find other solution to make huge “zoom” of this process. 4 - I’m still hang with best PID values, hard to find exact point, only range ☹. Also, I could not understand how work full “P value” 0-255 (it is not the same as in CV 56) and Extended back-EMF time. 5 - Start moment is very delicate for any motor, sometimes it works best with bad setting where motor is tortured so much. But it works great only for 1-2 speed steps. I wish that start would be much more smoothness so you even will not see moment. 4 - Download ZCS program for motor control, there are some of motor improvement settings which make settings much easier, you can use only your keyboard to fast set CVs and move train. That was really hard work… 5 - MS decoders have advantages for motor setting since they have full PID regulator instead of cut in CV 56 of MX version. Alex
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
Alexander, stall current is 2,1 A (information from technical specification, you cas see it under link I posted above). But I never worried about stall current, because if motor is stalled - it will very probably destroy driving mechanism (if you are lucky, just universal joint, if not, gears/worm). Motor regulation is a nice feature of DCC decoders, but provides motors also extremely strong torque - which can be a disadvantage when motor is mechanically prevented from spinning. I am always afraid that linkage in my steam locomotives binds from any reason - if comes to that, probably locomotive would be damaged badly. Therefore I always lower CV for motor regulation intesity to some medium value, never maximum as set in factory (CV 58 for Zimo, CV 56 for ESU). I set these values around 80 - 120. For magnets, I do not know - but it must use very strog magnets to get so much power. Update: I measured stall current at above 12V on my second motor - it is around 1,63 A. I stopped motor from spinning with pliers. So we are safe related to stall current.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 hi! I have contacted with this shop, they told that this motor has Neodymium magnets. That is very good, best strongest magnets like in Maxon. They need to make 18 and 24 v motors. 12 v is not enough for modern systems which has 18-21 on rails.
@kevinezhong
Жыл бұрын
Maxon's motors are very expensive. Our store sells some second-hand Maxon speed reduction motors, but we haven't seen Maxon's dual shaft motors yet. The price of our Maxon second-hand motor is approximately $10, while the brand new one costs hundreds of dollars.
@janeznovak1929
Жыл бұрын
Hello... Have you tried zimo ms or mn decoders? I am interested in the motor control, are there big differences between mx and ms decoders?
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
No, I did not, but I expect them to be at least on the same level or better if that is possible. I honestly think that what Zimo currently provides with coreless motors in regulation department is so good, that I could not notice any improvement - maybe somebody else could. I bought some spare MX 600 because when they are gone, MN versions will be more expensive, and I do not need anything better than MX 600 if sound is not needed. My first MS decoder will be installed in Roco BR 23 with coreless motor, I plan to do that in a very near future, decoder is already ordered but locomotive is still not finished. I will show it here, if result will be as i expect it to be -:)
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
"are there big differences between mx and ms decoders" Huge difference. MS decoder has full PID control, MX has very cut CVs of PID. Only D value is full. Also sound quality in MX very poor, but if you choose MS do not buy it in shop! Order it ONLY from Mr. Mr. Portigliatti with his own sound project. No one makes better sound than him, most realistic.
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
@@Alexander_Sth I am very curious how my first MS decoder will perform in motor regulation, because as I said, I am already very satisfied with that department in MX range. When sound is discussed - of course, MS range is great improvement. Again, I am very curious how this decoder will sound, I hope for great sound (I ordered it with Mayer's sound project for DB BR 23, 16 bit version).
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 I can confirm that you achieved highest place with your Maxon experiments, nobody beat you in smoothness. However I think it has more potential which need to be explore, it is only possible with full motor regulation like in MS (maybe other full PID decoders) and some instruments which as well need to be constructed by our hands. There are some problems even in luxury motors with couple speed steps where it could hang a little bit and also big problem to start motor that way so you even do not see border between stop and start. I ask you do not buy MS decoder anyway except "Portigliatti sound" shop, because he choose best position to record sound while Mayer, Heinz Däppen record it wrong way, so you hear sounds which you will never hear outside of the loco. Portigliatti sound could bought only with decoders. You can compare Re 420 (4/4) of Portigliatti and Däppen versions.
@raymondleggs5508
Жыл бұрын
quiet eisenbahn
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
HI! Great to see your video again, thank you very much. I'm also fan of coreless motors. There is huge difference. But I need to tell you that my experience since we discussed your Maxon is a little bit increased. For coreless motors even best one most important to find best back-EMF and PID. My Maxon DCX show that less vibration and best smoothness show back-EMF CV 9 - exact 95. For PID much difficult. I can cut worst (which lead to unpredictable behaviour and vibration), to find good range lets say CV 56 - 131-164, and D value 1-30, but I can not find best one. It is very hard. For research I use long line from 6 pencils (3-motor-3) and one paper clip until end, make balance in the center of this line. Motor should be hold separate. If you look on the paper clip you will see quality of your setting. Also I have experiments with this line but unbalanced and in vertical (like wall watch). It change positions and motor show imperfections. But I'm not sure if it is useful. The better to out motor on 20-30 speed step and fast change direction. That is how you can see PID working and find better setting. Need to check if 165 or 163 was the best. But need more research. Most important is to set cv3 and 4 to 0. And I use for testing motor with original Maxon gear. That is only way to see and set PID really work, the same as in other spheres - you see if motor fail to immediately find best control when changing directions or lose control for some small time. With right P,I and D value you get really elastic motor control. Still in search how work P value in experimental Zimo block and Extended time for back-EMF as well. If you have email please write me. By the way I try to test some very thin PTFE wires (made in German) but can not order it from one German company which are selling it only for companies, however they could sell it by meters.
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
You could show your "pencil - paperclip" test here. Regarding Zimo motor control values, I am really satisfied with CV 9 = 71/81 and CV 56 = 133/135. These values gave provide very steady, vibration - free coreless motor running. If "vertical wheelset" test still shows some jerkiness, then something else is to blame - universal joints, gears, worm, gearbox etc. With some (especially older locomotives), it is not possible to get perfect running even with coreless motors, because the whole drivetrain is of inferior quality.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 yes, I remember your values. I check it few times. It show OK result, but if you try with pencil/paper clip you see vibration, because there are micro vibrations. With my method you really see what is happening with motor. Vertical unbalanced method is not perfect because motor can not hold weight when it came up (for example 1-6 hour, also motor load changing on the similar speed steps, so it is not same as loco moving). One more thing! Every motor has it’s own bad speed step. My maxon has 4 speed step which hard for motor, so most my experiment are on this speed step. I’m still thinking how to start motor with lower speed. Sometimes it is possible and very smoothest if you use bad settings! But surely it is good only for first 1 and 2 speed steps.
@jerrydick2011
Жыл бұрын
lol 😂😢tt&ghhhHj😅 Vcdt❤
@struck2soon
Жыл бұрын
Nice work, sounds good!
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
Thanks
@struck2soon
Жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 I am guessing this is HO gauge?
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
@@struck2soon Yes, this is HO gauge.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
What a luck, new video, amazing as always. Very difficult construction of the loco, not because of the size, but for cabin location. Not many locos had that idea. By the way I love your apartment design, so clean, simple and stylish with light wood glass doors. Wish more people have such taste.
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
I had excellent carpetnerts, thanks-:)
@eal8645
Жыл бұрын
Did you do a sound card upgrade? Or, is this the factory sound board?
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
This is Soundtraxx Tsunami 1 decoder. It cannot be upgraded in any way. This is factory created sound.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hello, that is me again. Can you share your experience about how you find optimal back-EMF settings and especially PID regulation? Since PID is quite complicative research, which additional solutions or tools could be use for the fine calibration? By the way, yesterday I saw couple video of german guys who connect oscilloscope to H0 train for, let's say science purpose. Can it be use for PID regulation as well?
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
Basically there are just two CV's for ZIMO decoders that are most important for motor regulation: CV 9 and CV 56. In all my locomotives with coreless motors regardless of motor manufacturer (i.e. Maxon, Escap, CIK, unknown/China, etc.) they have the same values: CV 9 is either 71 or 81, and CV 56 is between 131 - 133. With just these two settings I found my piece of mind. Of course, minimum speed (CV 2), CV 3 & 4 & 5 and e.g. other that define regulation intensity (CV 58, which I usually set between 100-130) have to be set, but those two I mentioned the first are crucial. With iron core motor, EACH motor has it's own values, what can be a nightmare. For such cases, maybe you really need that scientific approach, but for coreless motor, I think you are set with values I gave above. This was also one of the most important reasons i replaced practically all iron core motors with coreless, to make my life easier. Now if I install new motor (coreless) in a locomotive, I programme motor regulation CV's without even trying first if they are correct - I know they are (at least for me). I assume the reason for that is completely different design of these motors, compared to iron core, which have much more deviation in response to motor control functions of DCC decoder.
@Alexander_Sth
Жыл бұрын
Hi, one question… Your Maxon had axle from both side or just one?
@hrvojetrains1816
Жыл бұрын
On both, on one side with small metal gear. The other side is visivle on first link above.
@YT32-16branch
2 жыл бұрын
Is this analog or digital?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
I installed ESU Lokpilot Micro in this locomotive
@ВалерийФилиппов-д8о
2 жыл бұрын
My video and lokomotiv kzitem.info/news/bejne/mqmcnZ6dpapyoKw
@ВалерийФилиппов-д8о
2 жыл бұрын
Hallo. Very good video and lokomotiv.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@ВалерийФилиппов-д8о
2 жыл бұрын
My video and lokomotiv kzitem.info/news/bejne/z5-v0YV6ioSphX4
@ВалерийФилиппов-д8о
2 жыл бұрын
Hallo. Very good video and lokomotiv.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@manda60
2 жыл бұрын
Amazing work as always!
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks. Unfortunately, on very short track it is not possible to show all capabilities of this sound project and decosder - for example, when speeding up, chuffs are heavy and deep, but when locomotive reaches required speed, chuffs are lighter. If speed regulator on Roco MultiMaus is set to zero, locomotive coasts and chuffs are practically no audible. Furthermore, if function 15 is pressed, locomotive is set into "shunting" mode, meaning acceleration and deacclereation is faster than when in normal mode (pulling a train), and only light chuffs are heard at the beggining, but dissapear completely very quickly. When my layout will be finished, I hope it will be possioble to show more. But this will not happen before some time in 2023.
@manda60
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 I am eager to see your layout someday. Do you have an area / prototype location in mind?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
@@manda60 This is plan: up.picr.de/43946889mx.jpg It is not related to any real location - layout room is just 3x3,6 m, so there is not much place, but minimum radius is 610 mm, but in most cases considerably larger. Terrain will not be completely flat, i.e. some slopes are planned towards room centre, on the top, left and right on track plan. Area in front of train station is flat. Tracks are Peco Code 75.
@L.J.MoBaTrains
2 жыл бұрын
❤❤❤❤❤
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
Hi. How did you move out metal gear of the maxon motor shaft? Did you heat it or made special instrument?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
I crushed it in a huge vise. Gear is made of very brittle material, so after a few attempts (squeeze it once, then release from vise, rotate a gear a bit, then again squeeze and so on, it gave up and crushed in many pieces. Be careful to protect your eyes.
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 Done. I tried to save it and made special tool but seems it is impossible due some welding between shaft and gear. What kind of solution did you use between Roco gear and Maxon shaft? Last one much thinner (about 1,45) and shorter (4,1 mm). Did you made new gear or use some adapter?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
@@Alexander_Sth The original gear cannot be saved, and for model railroading purposes it is anyway useless. I crushed all of them, and all motors were saved. When crushing gears, you must be very careful because vise force is enormous, and in some cases motor can be ejected from vise like a bullet - this can be very dangerous. Wear protection glasses! Motor shafts on both end should be 1,50 mm. To extend both of them, I used tubing 1,50 mm (ID) / 2,00 mm (OD). I used either brass or steel tubing, depending what I had at hand or could find on the market in that moment. If shaft is just submitted to torsion, it can be made of brass (like in this locomotive). If shaft is submitted to bending force and much less to torsion (e.g. in any Roco steam locomotive with motor in tender only, where worm is directly on motor shaft), then tubing should be made of steel. I updated the explanation text below video, and posted new links, removed dead one. Hope this helps.
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 Sure… To prevent fly of small pieces I used paper napkin which I wrapped gear with cutting tool and put it all together in thick cloth. As you told me I do little by little rotating gear until it broke. Would try brass tube 1.5-2 mm which have, because it is quite hard to find steel solution (1.5-2.2 available is selling only). However, 1.5 seems a little bit bigger Maxon shaft and do not fit firmly, maybe Roco gear would press it. Also, I got Roco decoder, think it is Zimo 630P16 which used with train board which I do not have... So, need to test it with original motor and after would move on Maxon.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
@@Alexander_Sth I do not know where are you from (USA, Europe, etc.), but in Germany there is one shop, they have practically everything: edelstahlrohre.info/duennwandiges-edelstahlrohr I tried to buy from them, but never got any reply - very probably they do not want to have any business with buyers from Croatia. Maybe you will have more luck. I found excellent steel pipes in Amazon USA, sent it to my cousin there and he brought them here. These pipes are 1,50 mm ID, 2,00 OD and fit snugly on 1,5 mm shaft. I measured few minutes ago Maxon motor shaft - it is 1,49 mm. There are lot of sellers on the Internet selling steel pipes with ID 1,55 mm / 2,00 OD (mostly originating from China). I used even these, but if possible, avoid them, their ID is too big. I also used brass pipes that I found in Bauhaus (1,49 mm/2,00 mm), this is hardware store. It was very cheap, but great for many occasions - 1 m for 1 Euro.
@Cursedlophobia
2 жыл бұрын
Hey, IDK if you’ll respond but have a question, I’m about to install a TCS wowsound decoder into my Trix big boy 4013. I was wondering if you can give me more details about which specific TSC wowsound decoder you used and can you give me more detail into the baffle & speaker for the big boy. If you can give me advice, thank you. -CursedVR
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
For TSC decoder, the standard TCS WOW decoder for steam, it was upgraded to version 4. I think it was WOW101-Steam, SKU 1516. For details about baffle, I have a file with pictures and detailed description is Croatian, but this is Word, so you can put it in Google and translate ion English, just send me your e-mail. Details about spekawer are below, it was Visaton BF32.
@Cursedlophobia
2 жыл бұрын
Ok thanks
@manda60
2 жыл бұрын
Your skill never ceases to amaze. P8 isn't a big engine by most standards. Nice!
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, it is not a big engine but boiler was large enough to fit one 13x18 mm speaker and relatively large baffle. I think for this loco, sound is acceptable. Nothing spectacular but acceptable. This Tsunami 2 will be used in Intermountain Cab Forward, and there the whole tender will be used as baffle, and one 32 mm Visaton for loudspeaker.
@L.J.MoBaTrains
2 жыл бұрын
Lucky guy this friend of yours !
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
He is helping me too - he is master of weathering, hew weathered my Fleischmann turntable. I would never be able to do it as he did.
@sithu9713
2 жыл бұрын
எ௯ம
@22763344
2 жыл бұрын
Buenísima marcha quedó. Yo tengo una como esta, pero tendré que digitalizarla. Ya le puse luces led. Saludos.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@22763344
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 Saludo desde Costa Rica.
@manda60
2 жыл бұрын
Where did you get the gears? I have a Fleischmann 86 (and a 94) and would love to replace their motors. I have a mill and a lathe, so... this looks doable?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
These gears were later replaced with Roco worm and worm gear, and spur gear from shop.kkpmo.com/index.php. Roco worm and worm gear are made from plastic, more quiet, module 0,4. Spur gear is module 0,5, also made of plastic. Roco worm is part no. 86705, bore 1,5 mm (as used in e.g. Roco Glaskasten, art. no. 72058). I can get you worm gear part number later, it is either 21 teeth or 17 teeth. For this locomotive you need higher maximum speed, i.e. worm gear teeth number shall be lower. And yes, it is doable but if you never did it, maybe it is easier to try with one more simpler locomotive, like BR 94 you also have. I did not have any metal machine tool except hand drill "Proxxon". So with any professional machine tool (grinding etc.) you can make gear brass body part in one piece, instead of three parts that are glued, this is much more solid solution. My suggestion is that you first try to make the complete gearbox, test how it works alone from your hand (when lubed, it shall be almost silent), with attached spur gear on worm gear shaft. Then, you remove some of the original gears from Fleischmann locomotive (by removing securing ring) and try to power the gears that are left with your new gearbox holding it by hand next to your opened locomotive (all them together in air, not on tracks), observing that spur gear from your gearbox has good alignment with first Fleischmann spur gear that is left (the one you shall leave as it is when you will cut the rest of Fleischmann chassis with surplus gears). Then listen, observe how iwhole mechanism works, and if it is ok, only then decide to CUT Fleischmann chassis that has to be cut. I have done like that each time, and decided to go on only after I saw and heard that locomotve now works almost silent or much quieter compared to original "coffee grinder" sound. This is because if you from any reason cannot make good gearbox, but cut the locomotive chassis, you destroyed the locomotive. Better to test 10 times than to cut wrong once.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Here there is a icture of new gearbox and new motor: up.picr.de/42730312cx.jpg This is from my another video on this locomotive. I used bigger worm then I suggested above, but you can use both, only the position of worm gear shaft is different, but this also depends on motor diameter. I think even 12x10 mm motor would be good, but if you can find motor 16 x 20 mm max, then use this because it is stronger. Of course, any 13 mm motor will fit too. I used this motor because I wanted to test it too, it is not available any more, which is a pity, because it is not easy to find good coreless motor of 16 mm in diameter and only 19-20 mm long, usually you can find 1625 mootro, but that is tool ong for tjhis locomotive. Here is one souce for 16 mm motor that is 20 mm only long, but you need to cut the other shaft, it is dual shaft motor. This motor is very strong and extremely quiet. www.fischer-modell.de/zubehoer/elektronik/motoren/glockenankermotor-fm1620ds?c=474
@manda60
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 Thank you! I will order a pair of these motors today!
@manda60
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 Thank you! This is amazingly helpful information. I will try the 94 first, as it's an older loco that I am considerably less fond of. It's also much louder, so a good test piece. I will make the gearbox on the mill this week - I think I have plenty of brass stock on hand - and make sure I have got it running smooth and silent as you suggest.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
@@manda60 Roco worm gear (17 and 21 teeth) are also available here: www.sb-modellbau.com/index.php?page=gruppe&path=/00000384/00000530/00000534 I think I have at home Roco part numbers for these gears, so you can buy it from APC Adams shop, they offer all replacement parts Roco/Fleischmann: apc-miniaturmodell.de/index.php/ersatzteile I recommend buying both gears (17 & 21 teeth), so you can experiment both with position of worm gear shaft and final spur gear speed, and adapt the gearbox to your needs. Sometimes it is important to have motor lower or higher (or you have 16 or 13 mm motor), so bigger or smaller worm gear (and worm) is relevant, because new gearbox must fit inside of loco shell, and you do not want that spur gear from new gerabox is visible, because it is sitting too low. Also, if spur gear is positioned too high, it may collide with loco shell (usually water container on loco side). So, all that factors should be taken into consideration when making new gearbox. Of course, to achieve perfect mesh, both worm and worm gear must have the same module (Roco: 0,4). In any case, spur gear must have 0,5 module, because Fleischmann gears are all with 0,5 module. One note: all Fleischmann locomotives that I remotored have 16 mm boiler (inside measure), so 17 mm motors do not fit (e.g. BR 86, BR 78). Maybe it would fit in BR 65, BR 94.
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
What kind of central station you have? Zimo or Z21 black? Which power supply? Ask because some station could adjust voltage.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
I have Roco set 10764/10810/10850, it is older station with Multimaus 2. I use another power supply that can adjust voltage (I think it is for laptops or similar), I set it for 16V to be able to use capacitors for 16V max (in just few locomotives in fact). This voltage is more than enough, I am not crazy for speed -:)
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 Oh… Thank you very much, it is a really important information besides setting. Because many people try to persuade me to use only 12 V. However, I’d like to replicate your experience, cause didn’t see the same smoothness with 12 V even coreless, they all stick and jump more or less. And found idea that I need central station with voltage out regulation for 24 V. The one is Roco Z21 black (up to 24 V) which is quite expensive. But your solution is really interesting. Could you take a picture of power supply or make video with it? Your motor is about 10500 RPM with 24 V.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
@@Alexander_Sth It is just ordinary universal Notebook powersupply, in my case, Vivanco, model 30468, here is a link: einsteintech.shop/product/universalnetzteil-fuer-notebooks-netbooks-65-watt/ Yes, according to Maxon catalogue, model 216013 has 10800 rpm at 24V (no load speed). For some locomotives, it is too slow at 16 V, which is maximum I use. But no motor (locomotive) should jump or "stick" (or "hesitate") regardless on motor RPM (of course, if motor is way too fast, then this is another thing - 12-15000 RPM at maximum voltage should be more than satisfactory for most locomotives. If this occurs, usually there are two causes: either decoder motor control is not properly set (I found happines with Zimo, CV 9 = 71/81, CV 56 = 133 for practically all coreless motors), or there is some mechanical cause (gears, universal joint etc.), or combination of both. In several locomotives I had to do a lot of work to adjust them mechanically to maximally exploit the possibilites that coreless motor and excellent motor control can provide. In some Roco locomotives I used small shims (brass sheet) to fine tune the position of tender wheels (steam locomotives powered in tender), in some cases I even made small brass bearings for drive wheels and filed plastic/die cast gearbox to be able to accomodate wheel with brass bearing (bearing was made out of brass tube 2 mm ID / 3 mm OD, filing is risky because if you overdo it, game is over). I used that method e.g. in Roco DB BR 23 and Roco DB BR 57. In Roco DB E18 one wheel was too close to adjacent gear, so there was a slight binding (you feel it when rotating wheel with your finger carefully in a gerbox that is pulled out of locomotive, with gears in it). All of this you do not notice when running them DC, but when you use fine coreless motor and digital decoder, this changes a lot. Immediately you see "jumping", hesitation, especially when speeding up or slowing down. Pictures showing fine tuning the position of drive wheel on Roco DB E18: up.picr.de/38049088zz.jpg?rand=1644074277 up.picr.de/38049091ku.jpg?rand=1644074277 Picture showing brass bearing for drive wheels on Roco DB BR 57: up.picr.de/35695104zl.jpg?rand=1644074278 Even with this, Roco DB BR 57 is still not perfect, but is better than in original state. With Fleischmann locomotives, I had no problems in binding of any kind (it is German engineering at ist finest, really - easy to maintain, durable, and precise enough), but for almost all steam locomotives, I had to build completely new gearbox to remove horrible sound of original Fleischmann gears. But even these loud gears, when original Fleischmann motor was replaced with Faulhaber pancake motor, I achieved perfect, smooth running. But, it was noisy still, so after all, I decided to make new gearboxes for most of them. They can be seen in another videos. And - I would be very careful going so high with voltage - I think 14- 18V is more than enough, I know Roco can give more, but why to have so high voltage? Be careful not to burn the decoder.
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
You have a great experience in many motors. Which one you can would be the best with the same result with Roco H0 BR 80 for same dynamic and totally silent? Motor and decoder. Also I would ask if you tried brushless Maxon EC-Max bearing which needed special controllers. It is quite difficult, and as I now only two teems have made it for not selling purpose, for Marklin. But due poor quality of Marklin motors the result was awful. But theoretical EC-Max should be nice, what do you think?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
I did not try brushless motors due to lack of special controller you mentioned, and because I achieved great results with normal 5, 7 or even 9 pole coreless motors. For Roco BR 80 I have used the same motor as in Roco OBB 1044, but as I mentioned in my anser to your question for Proto Y2 2-8-8-2, this motor is not available any more. For Roco BR 80 you can use any 16/17 mm motor with one shaft. There are many on eBay, like these here: www.ebay.de/itm/274613578049?hash=item3ff03ea941:g:F3IAAOSwiBxhb4Xr www.ebay.de/itm/262838768748?hash=item3d3269546c:g:u00AAOSwviZhuaIp www.ebay.de/itm/192730623881?hash=item2cdfa3ef89:g:1rIAAOSwA~1bvffZ I have used that 1725 motor for my Fleischmann DB BR 103 which is shown in another video. You can also use this motor: www.fischer-modell.de/zubehoer/elektronik/motoren/glockenankermotor-fm1620ds What you need of course to do is to build any kind of cradle/support for the motor, fit original or new Roco worm on motor shaft and position it in appropriate position. If you do not need sound, ZIMO MX 600 decoder will do the job, motor control CV's are as follows: CV 9 = 71 or 81 CV 56 = 131 / 133 All my locomotoves with coreless motors and Zimo decoders have the above mentioned settings for motor control. Here you can see Roco DB BR 80 with installed Maxon coreless motor: up.picr.de/42868030pw.jpg
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
Hi! Best dynamic I've seen... Which Maxon Motor you have used?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
The same as in Roco OBB 1044, 24V slow running motor that is not available any more - it was sold on eBay as used. But any 16/17 mm coreless motor of appriate power, rotation speed and two shafts will do - like this here: www.fischer-modell.de/zubehoer/elektronik/motoren/glockenankermotor-fm1630ds This is very powerful motor, and practically silent.
@Alexander_Sth
2 жыл бұрын
Hello! Welchen Maxon Motor haben Sie verwendet?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Read my answers for another two locomotives, here you can see how it looks inside, just for idea how to do it: up.picr.de/40648875sa.jpg?rand=1642659332 I have filled it with lead sheets and removed traction tires in the same time, to get smoother running but to keep traction power. I do not have any problems because flywheels have been removed, because I use CV 3 and CV 4 instead.
@daniell37
2 жыл бұрын
Great conversion, but can you please provide liks for the gears and the motor?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Motor that I have used is not available any more. Motor must have diameter 16 mm max, and not longer than 19-20 mm. Beside Maxon motor (13 mm) which is expensive, you could try some cheaper alternatives: www.fischer-modell.de/zubehoer/elektronik/motoren/glockenankermotor-fm1620ds - dimensions should be ok, but one shaft should be removed or more chasis cut. Very strong and quiet motor, I used it for Fleischmann BR 55. www.ebay.de/itm/263230208690?hash=item3d49be3ab2:g:a7UAAOSwop9hOgt- - it is 25 mm long, so maybe it cannot be used. www.ebay.de/itm/194178990247?hash=item2d35f840a7:g:5ToAAOSwxsdgtek2 - dimensions are ok, but it could be too weak. I have used ROCO gears, they can be bought at www.apc-miniaturmodell.de/index.php/ersatzteile as spare parts. Worm: 86713, bore 2 mm Another worm I used for many conversions: 86705, bore 1,5 mm Tower gear: 86428 (17 teeth), but maybe also 86429 (12 teeth) could be used. Spur gear (white) was bought here: shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p711_gearwheel-pinion-m0-5---20teeth.html - 20 teeth (I think, I used picture to count -:) I suggest to order different kinds of gears/worms, to have at hand and experiment. Roco worm/gears have module/pitch 0,4, while spur gear has 0,5 to match to Fleischmann gears. Hope this helps. Hrvoje
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Motor is available again, it is the same Japanese CIK motor: www.ebay.de/itm/264144939327?hash=item3d8043e93f:g:pdsAAOSwCJRiWEL8
@antoniolosito8431
2 жыл бұрын
Eccellente!!!
@toytrainstats7647
2 жыл бұрын
Nice project! Coreless motors might be the future of model railroading. Have you done a drawbar test to compare pulling power before / after?
@killbill151515
2 жыл бұрын
Hi , I am from Chile. My question. What CV 9 and cv 56 put in the zimo decoder for this old roco electric motor. Thanks a lot. Edgardo.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
Hi, I have replaced original iron core Roco motor with Escap coreless motor in locomotive shown in this video, so I have used CV 9 = 71 and CV 56 = 133 for new motor. For old Roco iron core motor, Zimo recommends CV 9 = 95 and CV 56 = 33, more in Zimo manual (page 19): www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX-small-decoders_EN.pdf You must be aware that with original Roco motor it is not possible to get so nice, smooth movement as with any coreless motor, due to motor design. Here you can see how new motor looks like, and old Roco motor next to locomotive tender (in this picture Maxon motor is shown, later I have replaced it with Escap, but they look the same): up.picr.de/34482443iu.jpg?rand=1639496889
@killbill151515
2 жыл бұрын
@@hrvojetrains1816 I understand , thanks a lot for the anwser. I will adjust thats cv , to obstend the best possible movement.
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
@@killbill151515 You can try another values for CV 9 and Cv 56 beside those recommened by Zimo, therefore it is good to read that part of the manual. I would in any case also decrease CV 58 (which is by default 255) to some lower level, e.g. between 100-150, because if that CV is high, it can also affect smooth running. I have spent many hours, even days trying to find CVs that will enable smooth running thru whole speed range, but was never completely satisfied with the results. Then I tried in one Roco locomotive to replace original old motor with coreless one, and it was a breaktrough. I have now in all my Roco locomotives with maybe few exceptions coreless motors, and in all of them CV 9 and CV 56 are set on the same value as I explained above, regardless of coreless motor manufacturer. With Roco motor shown on picture in the above link, I was not able to find one set of CV values for all motors, despite the fact that they are practically identical. Almost every motor had its own CV values. Coreless motors are completely different design, they do not have any cogging and are in general much finer products than iron core motors. Therefore one set of CV values was good for all of them.
@charlesbissey9901
2 жыл бұрын
How did you get the locomotive shell off I can’t figure out how to take it off same with the tender?
@hrvojetrains1816
2 жыл бұрын
On the top of loco shell there is one screw, it is visible. Just unscrew it, and shell is off. The tender shell top is glued, I wiggled it a bit and it came off. If it does not come off easy and there is a danger of destroying it, then you have to install small decoder in locomotive. With coreless motor, even ESU Lokpilot Micro is enough. Or even Zimo MX 600 can be fitted next to motor, in loco cab.
@railway187
3 жыл бұрын
A very good crawler 😍👍👌
@ronnykretzschmar809
3 жыл бұрын
Ich habe die gleiche Lok. Ich bin mit dem originalen Motor so etwas von zufrieden. Also ich persönlich empfinde es als rausgeschmissenes Geld! Ansonsten würde ich sagen, der Umbau ist gut gelungen.
@arno_nuehm_1
2 жыл бұрын
Den originalen Motor empfinde ich als zu laut, aber mit Faulhaber sollte es im Rahmen sein. Der Maxon könnte im Analogbetrieb zu einer noch feineren/langsameren Fahrt verhelfen. Aber ich denke bei digital würde es keinen bedeutenden Bonus bringen. Aber als Motor für eine E-Lok klingt der Maxon ganz passend.
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